NeverAnEagle
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Posts posted by NeverAnEagle
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Sorry to hear about what happened to your wife. It is unfortunate that such behavior is so common place is a month when we are supposed to be spreading "peace on earth and goodwill toward men."I deal with this every year, but from a different point of view, as a non-Christian. I think the reason it's hard to understand the reactions is that the reactions you get to your “Merry Christmas†are not only different, but for different reasons, and often with varied purpose.To get this out of the way, I appreciate anyone wishing me well, and am always glad they are embracing their faith. Where things change for me is where: a well-wishing is either an “feeler†for a potential faith conversion pitch; a placing of “the chip†on the shoulder, so that an attack can be made if the other person responds with a well wishing that is appropriate to their faith; and lastly when it is an act of political outrage. You can see by example some of the possible different reasons.
We live in a compound culture, a true mixing pot, as is evidenced at any large scout gathering. We should respect our differences, find strength in them, and act to protect “everyone’s right to the freedom of religionâ€Â.
I don’t mean to give offense by this, but all too often a zealous Christian will react in way that creates the stigma that causes the “PC†policies to be adopted. To better demonstrate my point, I’ll use my wife as an example. My wife works with the public, and just yesterday she had finished a transaction with a customer, who them wished her “Merry Christmasâ€Â, it had the intended effect, she genuinely felt good, and smiled, saying “and a Joyous Yule to youâ€Â. Her client’s reaction was: “Aren’t you allowed to say Merry Christmas?â€Â. My wife didn’t choose to respond with “Merry Christmas†because she could not, she chose not to, as we do not celebrate Christmas, but did return a heartfelt well wishing, that was not well received. The story does not end there, as my wife, assuming she was dealing with a reasonable human being, went on to explain that her employer did allow all employees to say “Merry Christmasâ€Â, but “Joyous Yule†was appropriate to her own beliefs. I’ll not reproduce the whole dialogue here, although as you can guess, I was told about every detail when my wife came home thoroughly upset, and clearly no longer enjoying her winter holiday. Will I will share is that the client did inform my wife that “Jesus is the reason for the seasonâ€Â, and she was sick to death of people trying to remove Jesus from his own holiday; followed by probing questions regarding my wife’s own beliefs, and repeated efforts to get her to “x†religious leader, so that she can hear the truth, and be put on the correct path. The icing on the cake was when a supervisor asked my wife what had happened, and after hearing her explanation responded with “couldn’t you just say Merry Christmasâ€Â. Now my wife fears religious persecution in the work place.
Does seeing this from another point of view help you understand? I deeply revere the teaching of Jesus Christ, and from my understanding of his ministry, can’t imagine this woman’s actions were in keeping with his teachings. The sad thing is, from my experience, about 1 in 3 Christians react in a similar way. The end effect, polies, and laws, are adopted to protect everyone, and their religious practices.
I wish everyone could act like the mature, educated, adults we are, and everyone would accept all “well wishingâ€Â, with a big smile, and a warm heart … maybe one day we all can sit at the table of equality, and there will truly be peace on earth.
I've never understood how one can be offended by not being able to hear the greeting of their choice, but never stop to consider how offensive it is to the one who is expected utter a greeting for a holiday they don't believe in.
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Ya knowâ€â€If a good many christians in this nation would stop and think they'd realize that most people don't have a problem with “Merry Christmas†per say. The problem arises when I'm expected to wish Christians a Merry Christmas, even though I don't celebrate Christmas and worse, that I cannot wish Christans a “Blessed Solstice†of “Joyous Yule,†which happen to be MY holidays because it offends them!
No one is trying to “tear down your traditions.†Rather, they have simply recognized that others have traditions that are different than your own. I do not go Christmas Shopping; Christians do not go Festivus Shopping, however, BOTH groups do engage in HOLIDAY SHOPPING, thus advertising “Holiday Sales†is entirely approperate since the retailer wishes to have everyone inside shopping.
“But, what about my customs?†You ask. Well, What about my customs? What if I insisted that you work Christmas every year, but you got Yule off instead? You'd likely be just as unhappy as I am currently.
People don't want mangers in public squares, because a good many other religions, who also have holidays in December, are not permited to erect their own religious displays. Policies should be simple; either every religon with a holiday gets to put up a display, or the display can have no religious elements. That's what happens when you are being treated EQUALLY, not persecuted, just treated EQUAL to other citizens.
Because we live in a nation rich in cultural and ethnic diversity it is important to remember that not everyone is celebrating Christmas this holiday season. Currently, I am aware of 21 other holidays that occur this month:
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Bodhi Day
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Boxing Day
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Chalica
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Donghi Festival
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Dzon'ku 'Nu
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Feast of Winter Veil
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Festivus
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Hanukkah
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Human Light
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Inti Raymi
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Junkanoo
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Kwanzaa
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New Years Eve
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Newtonmas
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Pancha Ganapati
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Saturnalia
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Sewy Yelda
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Winter Solstice
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Watch Night
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Yule
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Zarathosht Diso
I’m sure there are more December holidays that I’m not aware of. Regardless of how many or how few there are, it is important to wish those around us “Happy Holidays†because you may not know just which holiday they will be celebrating this December.
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Bodhi Day
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We don't use cots, summer or winter. They are generally just extra weight to drag around and any lad sufficiently exhausted will happily sleep on the ground. As far as winter camping goes I would think that a cot would have a serious drawback when it cam to offering warmth as only one boy could sleep in the cot at a time. Generally when winter camping we find them in a heap just like a bunch of puppies.
If it's really cold we tell them to bring their summer bag and their winter bag, but we've don't have serious cold like some other areas of the country. The coldest it ever got over night on a camp trip was -5.
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My boys are looking to leave the troop as soon as the little one has his ECOH. The older one has no intention of becoming Eagle and only wanted to be in Scouts because it was fun. This new group of parents has made it decidedly "not fun."The bottom line here, I think, is that you can only fix what people are willing to change. Put your support behind the SM and help him as best you can. If people aren't living up to the desired standards of courtesy and kindness, the SM has to tell them so. If they are unwilling to change, hard decisions have to be made about who stays and who goes. I'm taking in feedback from others constantly about how to improve my behavior on a number of fronts. So, as far as I'm concerned, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. -
To be totally honest I've never seen the boys discuss the philosophy of anything they listen to. Typically conversation about where to ride go like this;Troop Meeting Tomorrow promises to be light.The CC sent out an email stating that parents who show up will have an opportunity to learn the reasons behind the troop rules and traditions, AND why it's never a good idea for a brand new scout to be PL.
Wish us luck!
Scout 1: "What's lord of the flies about?"
Scout 2: "A bunch of boys who get stuck on an island."
Scout 1: "Do they shoot each other with guns?"
Scout 2: "No they beat each other to death with a conch shell."
Scout 1: "I TOTALLY dibs that car."
Scout 3: "What's Ashes about?"
Scout 4: "An EM pulse fries all the kids brains and the go around eating all the adults."
Scout 3: "COOL!"
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No idea--I've never done it, just seen a patrol do it at a Klondike.Field Bowling:
You will need a fairly decent hill to keep the bowling balls rolling. We aim for 5 gallon buckets.
If you have access to a frozen lake: Turkey BOWLING!
Traffic cones make good pins and you use a frozen turkey as the "ball." Afterwards you cook and eat the turkey as a patrol.
You don't have to knock the traffic cones over; just hit them. Our boys got in on the bowling and smelled the eating later.
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Moosetracker: Council is trying to show the remaining scouters that nothing is going to change. Groups like the PTA (previously) wouldn't charter units because of the discriminatory policies. Now the other church groups are worried that "liberal" groups might be willing charter units because the ban on gays was removed, then they would have to interact with them at Camp O'rees and things. Council is hemorrhaging boys to Trail Life and they are desperate to stop the flow.Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...
In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).
But that is and should only be the very last resort.
So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...
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Moosetracker: oops wrong spotSometimes the smallest can be the biggest manipulator, and it sometimes is simply a way to compensate for their size. Aren't you happy your sons are not in the Owls patrol. I feel for the PL who is getting the blame for this.
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Qwazse: Since no one can agree on a radio station we listen to books on tape. The problem was that there were 3 drivers and none of them were listening to Christian fiction. The choices were: Ashes, Lord of the Flies, or The Ice Bound Land; all YA, but not specifically Christian.Troop Meeting Tomorrow promises to be light.The CC sent out an email stating that parents who show up will have an opportunity to learn the reasons behind the troop rules and traditions, AND why it's never a good idea for a brand new scout to be PL.
Wish us luck!
Unfortunately, I'm not SM.
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Field Bowling:
You will need a fairly decent hill to keep the bowling balls rolling. We aim for 5 gallon buckets.
If you have access to a frozen lake: Turkey BOWLING!
Traffic cones make good pins and you use a frozen turkey as the "ball." Afterwards you cook and eat the turkey as a patrol.
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I'm all for brining the younger son. I did it for two years and it motivated my younger son and made him ever more eager to join the "big boys." In fact my youngest has his eagle board of review tonight; my older son is still star.
Go and have fun. After all, scouting is supposed to be fun.
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BD: I'm not seeing a lot of adult intervention. The boys crossed over in April. In September we had one lad who wasn't working well in his patrol and was moved. Problems continued in that patrol until November when anxious parents wanted to remove the PL who is Star and replace him with their boy who was a tenderfoot. We have been trying to prevent that from happening, but also need to help the PL keep the patrol functioning because he has more on his plate than he can handle with this group of boys. Offering help to someone in need is a good thing. Letting the patrol flounder because a bunch of 11 & 12 year olds think they know more than the 14, 15 & 16 year olds would be disastrous and the boys wouldn't learn anything.So I gotta ask here.If adults are intervening when the lads have issues, what are they learning??
Isn't the goal of scouting is letting the lads figure it out for themselves?????
Had a lad who knew he would never be elected PL manipulate the Patrol election so he would be APL. The funniest thing happened.. They guy he got elected didn't want him as APL because he was a pain in the butt and he knew that he wouldn't support him running the patrol.
Given a chance the boys will get it right , eventually.
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quazse: The meeting was a disaster. The parents had issues with nearly every troop rule.Troop Meeting Tomorrow promises to be light.The CC sent out an email stating that parents who show up will have an opportunity to learn the reasons behind the troop rules and traditions, AND why it's never a good idea for a brand new scout to be PL.
Wish us luck!
First Class or shut up was interoperated as: "you're deliberately hold OUR BOY back"
Everyone eats the same food was interpreted as: "your making OUR BOY starve."
Driver gets to choose what we listen to was interpreted as: "infringing on OUR BOYS religious rights."
While the parents were in the other room complaining about troop rules James and Jacob worked Dylan and his mom into a tizzy by saying that she was a "welfare momma" and that "no Christian man would want her because she won't live a proper life." When Jacob and James were told they had to apologize their parents said there was no need for the boys to apologize because they were simply stating the truth. Dylan's mom announced that they are leaving the troop.
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We use the green pants you can get at Army Stand-downs. They're nearly the same color, better looking, and far more durable than scout pants. They also work great for hunting too. No need to feel guilty for finding something that is better quality and cheaper.
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Everyone needs manhood/womanhood rituals. The problem is not the rituals, the problem is that society has removed the normal routes for such rituals to occur.
Healthy Manhood rituals:
Hunters Education/First Kill
Learning to Drive (in the snow, on a logging road)
First Job
First time to run the Chainsaw/fall 1st tree
Rejoicing in manhood and recognizeing and celebrating comming of age rituals will reduce the incidence of unhealthy rituals.
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We seeded reasonably amicably. The Catholic troop does not allow non-Catholics to join, so when they learned that some of their members weren't Catholic we were shown the door. Some of the Catholic families left too. Of the 5 families that left, three of us joined a Methodist troop that was down to two boys (there was a mass exodus when they hired a woman pastor.) When the catholic troop realized that they just lost all of their active members, they approached us about being a "sister troop" and we do fundraisers, etc. jointly and split the profits.
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Troop Meeting Tomorrow promises to be light.
The CC sent out an email stating that parents who show up will have an opportunity to learn the reasons behind the troop rules and traditions, AND why it's never a good idea for a brand new scout to be PL.
Wish us luck!
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qwazse~Now the Committee wants to remove the rank of the current PL ---- What do I do now?I hope by "rank" you really mean his title/position of PL, and not his BSA rank (2nd Class, 1st Class, Star, etc). Once a BSA rank has been awarded - no one - except the BSA National office, has the ability to remove it.
Certainly not your Troop's committee.
Talk to your Scoutmaster - NOW.
BTW - what was done with Alex for his multiple incidents of shoving, and (especially) Jacob for shoving, stabbing, tripping, stealing, and punching?
James might have incited the incidents, but these boys were the ones to actually demonstrate, CLEARLY, what it means to NOT live by the Scout Oath and Law. The excuse of someone else "making" them act like aggressive bullies does not fly in my book. It was THEIR choice to act the way they did.
The problem is they were here for elections and are mad because none of their boys were eligible to hold an office. Troop rule is: FIRST CLASS OR SHUT UP. Boys are not allowed to hold leadership positions until they achieve the rank of first class. Only boys who are 1st class or higher get a say in which activities are planned for the year, and if space is limited the boys who are 1st class get first dibs on trips.
Alex is a whopping tenderfoot! And his dear mum and da think he should be patrol leader, and unfortunately, so did a lot of his chums.
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Oldscout448:Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...
In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).
But that is and should only be the very last resort.
So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...
Around here Methodist are not considered “mainline.†They are considered very liberal because they allow women to be pastors. In fact the current pastor is a woman.
It seems the new parents wanted their kids to be in an “active troop,†they just don't want all the hassel that comes with an active troop.
moosetracker:
Council is trying to prevent anymore people from joining Trail Life. We've already had a couple entire units make the switch and those units that remain have lost a lot of boys.
Alsoâ€â€At the time of the other thread I thought it was just me they were targeting, but I've since learned that the Native American fellow was officially removed when his son was a weblo, so before he even joined the troop. He got a letter in September saying that he is no longer allowed to help with the troop even “unofficially†as other parents do. Dale was removed in May and Sally removed in August, both this year.
ScoutNut:
Council's position is that you are free to be another religion, as long as you find someone of that religion to charter you. (Jews in a troop chartered by a Synagogue, Native American Traditionalist in a unit Chartered by the Tribe, etc.) We've been drawing fire because we will allow anyone one, of any religion to join.
We were official removed because we were labeled “deviant.†Deviants are not allowed to work with the youth.
Qwazse:
When I was removed we write letters to National, but National never even bothered to reply.
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Our CO is Methodist.Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...
In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).
But that is and should only be the very last resort.
So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...
The CO wanted to keep the leaders, but Council said that if their names appear on the Charter, they will revoke the Charter and there won't be a unit at all.
We used to have a really strong unit; we were the misfits who were kicked out of the Catholic troop, or not allowed in the LDS or protestant troops. We have taken 10 day backpacking trips in a couple national parks, took the boys for a week of sailing on 25 foot sail boats, gone white water rafting, etc. But above all, we allowed the boys their quirks, so we have some odd traditions. We started attending events out of council and submitting photo's of the boys achievements to the newspaper. We started to draw attention, then. We used to joke that whenever anyone had to call the council office for anything the secretary would be rolling her eye's and announcing, "It's THAT troop again."
Last April we got our first group of scouts that were mainline Christian; them and their parents have been trouble ever since. Council wouldn't have known Sally was teaching sex ed at the UUC, except one of the new parents was offended and told them. Council wouldn't have known about Dale and the incident at the school because it was kept out of the papers and no charges were filed, except one of the new parents told them.
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We do a movie night in December, I'll see if I can find this.Have the troop committee watch Eddie Haskel on the old Leave it to Beaver show. Eddie was the best behaved, most polite kid on the planet, whenever a parent was watching. In real life he was a cheating, lying, backstabber who took a perverse pleasure in stirring up trouble. I am not saying that James = Eddie but such people do exist. They are smart, charming, and very very good at not getting caughtThis needs to be stopped now, if James follows the typical pattern he will need to keep upping the ante to keep getting his thrills.
He seems to be targeting the weakest while trying to undermine the PL so he can take over. ( Warning bells going off here )
You need to tell his parents that one more and James is gone. No appeals no second chances. As scouters the safety of the scouts is our primary concern. Not just the other scouts but James as well. If this keeps up, one of the bigger scouts is going to figure out that James has played him for a fool and give him a pounding that may well be deserved. But it will be hard to explain to James' parents why their little darling has a broken nose and two black eyes. You are also going to be loosing scouts if this keeps up. If I were the scout who had been stabbed and flattened I would not be back. You will also have no choice but to land hard on the scout who did the pounding deserved or not. This kid needs help and unless you have a degree in abnormal psychology its well above a scouters pay grade.
James as a PL is just giving him more power to plot and manipulate
Been there, twice, once as a scout, trying to keep from getting hurt, twenty years later as a scouter, trying to stop it, it was not pretty either time
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perdidochas:Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...
In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).
But that is and should only be the very last resort.
So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...
Two of use were removed when it was made public that we aren't Christian.
One was removed because she was teaching a sex education class for the teens at the local Unitarian Church. (Fortunately, Council hasn't figured out that Unitarian's aren't necessary christian, so as it stands now her only transgression is teaching a sex education class.)
The last was a teacher at the Local Catholic school. One of the students brought a gun to school, showed the kids in the class, and threatened to kill him because he was failing history. He's a former Marine, so when the kid put him in a head lock, he turned it around and pinned the kid, and held him until the police showed up. He was fired for "inappropriate contact with a student." Basically, the kids' dad is a bigwig in town that donates a lot of money to the school; he threatened to have his kid removed and pull funding, so they got rid of the teacher instead. No charges were filed and the police stated that he acted in self-defense, but word got back to Council and they put him on the "deviants list" like the rest of us because he has a record of "inappropriate contact with a minor."
We aren't a big troop and the four of us that were removed are parents of 9 boys. The only people left to fill leadership positions are the parents of the new boys.
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Yes, I meant his title as PL.~Now the Committee wants to remove the rank of the current PL ---- What do I do now?I hope by "rank" you really mean his title/position of PL, and not his BSA rank (2nd Class, 1st Class, Star, etc). Once a BSA rank has been awarded - no one - except the BSA National office, has the ability to remove it.
Certainly not your Troop's committee.
Talk to your Scoutmaster - NOW.
BTW - what was done with Alex for his multiple incidents of shoving, and (especially) Jacob for shoving, stabbing, tripping, stealing, and punching?
James might have incited the incidents, but these boys were the ones to actually demonstrate, CLEARLY, what it means to NOT live by the Scout Oath and Law. The excuse of someone else "making" them act like aggressive bullies does not fly in my book. It was THEIR choice to act the way they did.
Unfortunately, Alex's parents think Alex would make a great PL and a lot of the new parents from this crop of Weblo's have decided they don't like our troop rules/traditions so they are supporting the removal of the PL and want to hold new elections, not just for that patrol, but for the whole troop.
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Unfortunately, our SM is in name only; he doesn't even show up 1/2 the time.Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...
In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).
But that is and should only be the very last resort.
So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...
Council removed our most active leaders and they have been replaced with parents from this new crop of weblo's. We keep hoping that they will give up and go away, but so far only one boy/family has left.
​I say ......... Merry Christmas; by Joseph S. Bonsall (from 2003)
in Issues & Politics
Posted
1. Bodhi Dayâ€â€December 8th, the day of Buddha’s Enlightenment; 550 BCE
2. Boxing Dayâ€â€December 26th, A day to give to the poor; Bohemian, 10th Century.
3. Chalicaâ€â€Week long holiday starting the 1st Monday in December centering on Unitarian vales. 2005.
4. Donghi Festivalâ€â€Chinese Winter Solstice; celebration is as old as the sun
5. Dzon'ku 'Nuâ€â€December 22nd; West African Solstice Celebration
6. Feast of Winter Veilâ€â€December 26th thru January 2nd; World of War Craft (gamers have holidays too!)
7. Festivusâ€â€December 23rd; Festivus was conceived by O'Keefe and was first celebrated in 1966.
8. Hanukkahâ€â€Date varies from year to year; Jewish, 2nd Century BC
9. Human Lightâ€â€December 23rdâ€â€Humanist; 2001
10. Inti Raymiâ€â€Festival of the Sun; Incan Impire; Celebration shared with Sothern Hemisphere Catholics since 1535.
11. Junkanooâ€â€December 26th; Bahamas 1600’s
12. Kwanzaaâ€â€December 26th to January 1st; Western African Diaspora 1966.
13. New Years’ Eveâ€â€December 31st; Roman, 45 BC
14. Newtonmasâ€â€December 25th; Atheist Celebration, 1890.
15. Pancha Ganapatiâ€â€December 21st to December 25th; Hindu 1985
16. Saturnaliaâ€â€December 17th to December 23rd; Roman/Greek, 217 BC
17. Sewy Yeldaâ€â€December 20th; Persian, As old as the Sun
18. Winter Solsticeâ€â€As old as the Sun
19. Watch Nightâ€â€December 31st; International; 325 CE.
20. Yuleâ€â€December 21st; Norse/Germanic/Celtic, approx. 1300 BCE
21. Zarathosht Disoâ€â€Date varies; Persian, 539 BCE