CherokeeScouter

My son and his buddy completed Eagle BOR last month. Figure it will take another few weeks or so before National registers it and before we can pick up the  presentation kit. 

My question is this: My son and his patrol want to do their Eagle COH together. The ones that are still working on it will probably finish up by Xmas, which means a spring 2017 Eagle COH. 

My son doesn't mind waiting - he would like to go through this with his buddies - but he did ask if he could wear the patch after he was certified by National but before the COH. I'd never seen this done before, but then again, the COHs are usually a little closer to the date earned. 

Any thoughts are appreciated. 

Stosh, I disagree. The spontaneity and unexpected questions are the whole point. Plus, there is absolutely no wrong answers in these situations, regardless of who is doing the BOR. 

These are my two criteria when I do an Eagle BOR (assuming everything is in order on the application):

1. Did the young man do the work? 

2. Is the young man of good character?

When you flunk someone on an EBOR, there has to be some extenuating circumstances. I've had painfully shy, autistic, just about everything you can imagine. Never flunked them. I even had one candidate who was so shy and so nervous that everything was one-word answers and sentences were no more than 10 words. He passed.

I think that if they had committed a crime or were absolutely forced to do Scouting at gunpoint by a parent, then we might have some reservations. 

But all the reasons you mentioned are exactly why you don't do practice BORs. 

I copied and pasted our policy (old rules):

Activities, Participation and Troop X's Expectations

As with any enterprise, the more a Scout puts into any endeavor, the more he will get out of it. Troop X is no different. Yet Scouting is only one activity in a young man's life and it is a challenge to balance the time demands of similar worthwhile activities, such as organized sports, extracurricular school activities or other pursuits.

All Troop X Scouts are expected to attend the monthly meetings on a regular basis and it should be the goal of every Troop X Scout to attend 50 percent of the meetings and outings.

Activities in the early ranks

The participation requirements for advancement are different in the lower ranks than in the higher ranks. In the early ranks of Second Class and First Class, this requirement is centered around a set number of activities. For Second Class, the Scout must participate in 5 Troop or Patrol activities outside of monthly or regular Troop/Patrol meetings. First Class requires participation in 10 activities, including the five counted for Second Class.

For any activity to count, it must be a Troop or Patrol-sponsored event; at least two trained and qualified Troop X adult leaders must be present; and it should last longer than 30 minutes. It should also be noted that while Troop X follows the Patrol Method and encourages outside Patrol events, the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters should be notified of such events and Scouts from other patrols should be invited, especially if the meeting is geared primarily toward rank advancement.   

Some examples of what qualify as a Troop/Patrol Activity:

• Campouts;
• Hikes and other outside events sponsored by the Troop/Patrol;
• Participation in Eagle service projects;
• Summer Camp or other BSA-sponsored expeditions. However, it shall count only as one activity, regardless of length of time or whether side excursions are involved;
• Participation in Troop/Patrol service projects. However, these must be approved by the Scoutmaster ahead of time;
• A special Troop/Patrol class convened to teach a skill or merit badge that is not part of the regular monthly meeting;
• Participation in Pack X activities as a volunteer. However, this is restricted to helping Pack X with special events. A Scout's participation in Pack X on a regular basis as part of a leadership requirement would not count.

What would not qualify:

• An individual Scout's participation in MB classes offered by outside entities;
• Meetings held prior to an outing in which the primary purpose is to load gear, plan the outing or inform parents about arrangements.
• Scoutmaster conferences;
• Participation in a Council or District Merit Badge academies. As with other MB opportunities outside Troop X, these are considered individual pursuits.
• Boards of Review;
• Courts of Honor, unless held on a separate night for a special event, such as an Eagle ceremony.
• Service projects organized by other entities in which participation is being used for Bright Futures Scholarship community hours or other educational community service requirements. However, public service projects organized by other entities in which Troop X is participating as a group would be counted. For example, if the local Sierra Club is sponsoring a Coastal Cleanup and Troop X is participating, then those activities and hours would count. A Troop X Scout ringing the holiday bell on behalf of the Salvation Army to complete required public service hours for Bright Futures or to complete the public service requirements of other academic institutions would not count, unless Troop X had partnered with the Salvation Army ahead of time.

Participation and the higher ranks

The activity/participation requirements to advance to the higher ranks of Star, Life and Eagle are slightly different and call for Scouts to be active for a period of months. BSA uses the following sequential test to measure this (Please refer to BSA  advancement guidelines for definitions):

·        The Scout is registered;

·        The Scout is in good standing;

·        The Scout is meeting Troop X's reasonable expectation of participation.

Again, while Troop X's reasonable expectation is the goal of 50 percent participation in meetings and outings, both Troop X and the national BSA organization recognize that as a Scout gets older, there are more demands on his time. Troop X encourages its Scouts to participate in an array of other activities and such participation will not be a barrier to advancement.

However, if a Scout is not able to reach the 50 percent goal, there should be communication with the Scoutmaster or his designated representatives as to why the Scout is not able to attend more regularly. It may be the Scout is involved in a particularly heavy academic endeavor, participating in school sports, is ill, has a unique family situation or is even studying abroad.

In any event, it is the responsibility of the Scout to notify the Scoutmaster or his designated representatives and explain this. The Scoutmaster's primary test will be "Would the Scout have been more active if he could have been?"

A Scout with prolonged absences and no communication with the troop may find it difficult to advance in rank in Troop X.

No, Beavah, but it's covered in GTA. It says something to the effect as Scouts get older, enter HS and participate in more stuff, there is a different expectation. 

I took my post down. Sorry for the rant. Little too strong. Just follow the guidelines. 

When I say I find a troop's practice EBOR, here's the reasons. 

 

1) The DAC and/or EBOR members have a yearly meeting talking about the entire Life to Eagle process: i.e. projects approval process, paperwork involved, the EBOR, etc. I attended part of one (it was the same night as Roundtable), and it was extremely informative. It does prepare Scouts for the entire process and I want to take my son to the next one as soon as he is able to.

 

2) From I've been told, these "practice" EBORs are harder, more difficult, and are more on the lines of retests than a true BOR.

 

3) I've been told that some Scouts who have "failed" their "practice" EBOR are not allowed to have a district EBOR until the unit approves.

This is just terrible. 

I think we ought to follow Scouting's recommendation  and discourage practice BORs. I think the SM offering tips or suggestions prior to  the BOR is reasonable. 

I serve on Eagle BORs. One thing I have done is to go back to the Troop and try and make our rank BORs somewhat like the Eagle BORs in so much as this is possible. There are obvious differences. But in the upper rank BORs, I engage the candidate on leadership, what Scouting means to them, etc. - very similar questions to Eagle BOR.

And our district starts Eagle BORs with the same three things we start every Troop BOR with - a uniform inspection, the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. So, when a Scout approaches me about his upcoming BOR, this exactly what I tell him:

"It's not too different from our Troop BOR. You will  find a lot of similarities. But be prepared to talk at length about your Eagle project and to discuss things such as leadership and what you have gotten out of Scouting."

That's all I tell him. 

We have a goal of 50 percent participation, but it's a goal and it really is covered under all the governance mentioned above. It is not really talked about a lot in our troop, but it is written down along with some guidelines, such as what constitutes an activity or what can be used for service hours and all of that posted on our website. As I said, it's a goal and we explain in the same breath that we just want the Scout to enjoy what Scouting has to offer and  to take advantage of it. 

However, we did flunk a Bronze Palm candidate who disappeared for a year after getting Eagle and then showed up wanting a Palm.  There had been no effort on the part of the Scout to even  communicate with the troop or SM. We later passed this Scout when he demonstrably proved he had been actively involved in HS athletics and rigorous academics. 

My son does, but he's been finished with it for only about 9 months. It was a landscaping project. He goes by once a month to pull weeds and spray roundup. He plans on doing it until he goes to college, which is still a couple of years away. 

The project included hedges and ground cover. Hopefully, as the landscaping matures, there will be less need and can be handled mostly with spraying. The agency's lawn maintenance company is taking care of the edging, which is a big help. 

Find another troop.

From the Guide to Advancement...

 

References: Must list all six (five if not employed).

If not affiliated with an organized religion, then

the parent or guardian provides this reference.

Neal, I'm terrible at math.  I'm seeing five references, four if not employed. Religious, teacher and two others. 

Thanks for the advice everyone. Will do the parent thing. We are blessed with a good council, district execs and an excellent  Eagle BOR coordinator down here in Fla. 

BTW, I have served on quite a few Eagle BORs and we never, ever get around the references.  It's more like  "Did we get them? Yes, that box is checked."

The Eagle BORs around here tend to focus heavily on the project, community service, leadership and the candidate's thoughts on Scouting and his future goals. Thirty to 45 minutes can go  by pretty fast on those subjects. 

Merrell Moab Ventilators (non-waterproof) for everything. One shoe really does fit all.  

I think it's what Northern Tier recommends for the portages, water, etc. They dry quickly, have great soles and provide a lot of stability. 

You can also use them at Summer Camp, on the AT, Philmont, etc., although you may want to look at the waterproof model. I have a pair of each. 

I know you should wear boots when hiking on terrain, but these Moabs are cut so high that they give you great ankle support. I also bought the boot version, but never wear them. 

It is an unbelievably lightweight shoe with great stability and a nice vibram sole. 

And the best part is that there is really no breaking-in time because of the softness and the way they are constructed. They are good to go out of the box, but you may want to wear them a little bit before you hit the camp. 

It's also an amazing shoe for people with flat feet. Don't know why,  though. The boots used to be the first thing I would shed when I came off the trail and into camp. Not with these. My feet feel great after spending all day in them. 

My son is filling out his Eagle application.  While we are Christian, we are not currently churched. He was baptized in the Episcopal Church.  

He felt a little awkward (as did I) about asking for a recommendation from the charter organization's pastor who doesn't know him. 

I thought I read where the Scout's Statement of Faith could be submitted in lieu of the pastor's recommendation. 

My son crafted a pretty good one. 

There are a number of reasons we are not churched, but we attend various churches throughout the year. My son just doesn't know any pastors that well. 

What's the thinking here? 

No, none of the current administration knew of this. As soon as we did, we brought it to council's attention. I can't speak for the administration that was around at the time. Most are not around. 

And our Council signs every new application. It's on the form. 

Hey, I'm the OP. Application was filled out correctly and honestly. The semi-new Advancement Chair says there is a prompt on the new version of TroopMaster if the age is too young, but she is not sure if earlier versions had it. 

And some of the posters are correct. There are three ways to join Scouts:

1. Be 11 years old;

2. Be 10 years old and have AOL;

3. Be 10 years old and have completed fifth grade. 

Since he does have AOL, his earliest join date would be 1 day after his 10th birthday. 

I'm not sure how you accomplish a do-over. 5-mile hike for Second Class was done when he was 9. But he got Hiking MB and did the AT when he was 10 and eligible to join. You gonna make him do a 5-mile hike when he's got the 50-miler? Same goes for First Aid. Got the MB at 10 when he was eligible to join but did Second and First Class first aid when he was 9. 

Ok. Thanks for the replies. Good advice. BTW, the kid has done two summer camps and the AT. He is a an excellent camper, etc.

However, I've decided on the following course of action: 

1)Notify the Council/District and talk about it with them.

2) Make sure the kid waits an appropriate amount of time for the Life BOR so that his time in rank needed for Star and Life sync up with what he would have done if he had joined at the right age. That way, we avoid the 11-year-old Eagle thing. I do not think the kid or the parent will have a problem with that. 

What do you think?

Feeling pretty sick about now.

New Committee Chair and relatively new Advancement Chair. Getting ready for some BORs on Monday and we were reviewing records. A kid wants a Life BOR.

And he's just turned 11.

Don't know how, but somehow he was registered when he was 9. And council must have accepted the application because he was on the council roster two years running. And I'm fairly certain that corrrect DOB is on the application. And although I haven't looked, I'm pretty certain the correct DOB is on his physical. Parents have no idea about Scouting and I'm 99.99999 percent they didn't have an idea about joining requirements. Dad is an retired fighter pilot from military. 

We also have another kid in the same boat. Also registered at age 9. And it looks like we had some crossovers who joined the troop at age 10 but did not have Arrow of Light. 

What should I do? Any suggestions? 

Not that it matters, but both are good Scouts and good kids. 

I gotta say I vastly prefer my ol' ASM position to the CC. Nothing but computer stuff, BORs and Committee meetings now. I did manage to get the key adult positions filled.

SM is in for another year, as is Treasurer and Adv Chair. Got a surgeon/dad to keep and handle all the physical forms. Excellent mix of new and old Dads for ASMs.

Very few trained, however. I see that as a big weakness.

Doing Internet Recharter for BSA for first time and have a couple of questions.

Registering the boys is not a problem. You uncheck the ones who are out and at a later point, you add the ones that are in.

My question concerns the adults. We have had a total makeover in Troop adult leadership. Some are remaining but in different positions. Others are moving on and others are being added.

How do you edit when a person stays on but in a different position? Is there a way to change and edit things and still stay in "Stage 2" as they call it?

I don't want to go too deep into the electronic process until I'm ready to print it (or whatever it does at the end). What I would like is to work on the roster in Stage 2 and then do the next step when I finished with that.

I have a strong feeling there is no "back arrow" and once you complete Stage 2, you are done with that.

Does any of this make sense?

Tx in advance from a nervous, first-time CC.

Oh, and there is the badge thing for the COH. Who should get the Scout Sunday patches?

Interesting occurrence yesterday. For the first time in many years, our troop decided to honor Scout Sunday and worship with our chartering organization, which by the way, is a new chartering organization for us. But we are doing everything we can to become a part of the church's community and after good collaboration with the church, we came up with a good program. The church reserved seating, had us march in with colors and then had the Scoutmaster and SPL make a few remarks. Then the church spruced up their normal after-service reception with special refreshments. Out of an 80-Scout troop, about 12 Scouts showed up in Class A. Not bad for a first time out.

But then a couple of hours later, an advancement report comes across my radar. One of the six Scouts is submitting an advancement report/request to credit six Scouts with an activity. Apparently, these six dressed up in Class A and attended their home church.

Needless to say, the Scout leaders who organized the event at the chartering organization are livid. And who can blame them? A lot of effort went into setting that event up. The church is so large, coordination is not a slam dunk. There wasn't any pre-approval from the SM or even the courtesy of letting the troop know what these Scouts were doing.

So now the talk is centered around whether the advancement chair and the SM are gonna accept the activity request.

My first reaction was absolutely not (I"m an ASM now). But the more I thought about, I was like "Why not?"

These Scouts took it upon themselves to dress up in uniform and go to their church. Yeah, they should have let us know ahead of time and all that, but I'm proud that they were proud of their uniform and of the tradition of Scout Sunday. And they showed some initiative. We can sit down with the Scouts next week and coach them up on how it could have been handled differently.

And no, we would not credit them with an activity if they had blown off a campout and gone camping on their own and then tried to get credit for an activity.

But this is a little more gray, I think.

What do you think?

NJ, I'm not registered as a Committee Member but I have done the adult-leader training as well as BOR training that we do at the troop level. As an Eagle Scout, I also serve on Eagle BORs at the Council level. I guess that is why the Committee Chair feels comfortable delegating that stuff to me when he is out of town. Also, our Committee meetings are open to all (I know it sounds crazy, but it actually is OK) and I occasionally sit in on those and try to help when needed.

I reconnected with Scouting two years ago when I volunteered to go with a group to summer camp in my son's first year. So rather than sit around all week, I did the adult leader training, which if I remember correctly consisted of Scout skills stuff and troop administration. It comes back pretty quickly (I was the only one in the class who knew the knots). Troop Advancement Chair is new-ish and doing an excellent job. His job is not to organize BORs, but he does serve on them when needed, as do the other committee members. Each fall, we do a BOR training session for adults who want to help out and we use the suggested questions and tips as a guide. I think our adult leadership is doing an excellent job as a whole. No power trips or overly large egos. The adults work well together. We could always do better at having a Scout-run troop following the Patrol Method. But we are better at it this year than last year and we were better last year than the year before that. Son is Star and making steady progress. Into mostly Eagle MB now and those are a lot more demanding, as you know. Son loves Scouting and outdoors, not yet grooving on backpacking and high adventure.

Also, maybe I misunderstood, but I thought that BORs were one of the main responsibilities of CC.

Also, keep in mind we are a troop of 80 solid. Think about that. Assuming two ranks a year, that is 160 BORs a year. There is just no way with a Committee of five or six. We are active and slammed, so we rely heavily on trained adult volunteers who are not on the Committee and not ASMs. We have a good half-dozen dads who are trained but not serving in an official capacity.

Good advice. We are on a target for First Class within a year, plus we have 80 registered kids, which is a lot to try and oversee.

Last nite was a bear. Eight BORs run by two panels of adults. I conducted one group and unfortunately, we weren't able to devote more than 15 minutes to each Scout. We had just conducted PLC elections and I hate to take Scouts out of meetings for their BORs. Yet, if you do them after meetings, the Scouts are often getting home at 9:30 or later. Fifteen minutes seems like such a short time to cover BOR ground, but maybe not. I try to organize them so that we can spend a little more time with First Class, Star and Life BORs (Life especially). Moving to another night is out of the question. We have very good dad-Scout attendance on campouts so that may be an option, but we try to reserve campouts for advancement and SMCs - and fun.

How long are your BORs running? BTW, I'm not committee chair. I'm just a dad volunteer who has gone through the adult training and I fill in the for CC when he asks me to.