CherokeeScouter

So glad we don't wear them. Didn't care for them as a Scout, don't care  for them as a Scouter. 

6 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Can you not take the class online and complete the application to become registered or will the council ignore/decline such submissions? Seems like requiring an in-person class, especially for individuals that are not registered volunteers (e.g. professionals that are simply wishing to help their local community by being MBC for their area of expertise), would significantly reduce the applicant pool.

Absolutely make it online. I have a real problem getting adult personnel to in-person training. 

58 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

You know he posted that in 2003 right?

58 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

You know he posted that in 2003 right?

Uh, no. Size 12 shoe not tasting too good right now. 

1 hour ago, SSF said:

I was talking to a friend recently who got as far as Star and even though he loved being in scouts he lamented how much he regretted not making a greater effort to go after Eagle.

Not to be facetious...but seriously, what would scouting be without advancement...a group of boys just hanging out, occasionally going camping, hiking, fishing, etc., playing dodgeball...where and when would they learn first aid, ecology, pioneering, orienteering, swimming, civics, lifesaving, emergency preparedness, develop personal fitness, healthy family dynamics...the list goes on

There are actually scouts who do genuinely want to advance and who are very proactive and diligent in working on rank advancement, however, rather than be applauded for their ambition and willingness to go the extra mile to advance, they're chastised as being overly eager or labeled as being "forced" to advance by mom or dad (which may be true in some cases, but hardly all cases), etc. and labeled as 'paper Eagles' or some other nonsense like that.

If a kid wants to just hang out and not do anything towards his advancement, then that's his decision. Conversely those boys who are willing to put in the time, effort and commitment to advancing, shouldn't be denied the opportunity and labeled as someone who isn't in scouts for the right reasons.

Being an Eagle does mean something. To me, it really comes down to being willing to put in the additional time, effort and work needed to earn it. This is why so many Life scouts simply don't achieve the rank. They don't go the extra mile to do the project, complete whatever remaining merit badges they need and just decide that they're content with being Life for life, or Star for Life...or 1C for life.

 

 

 

Point well taken.

LOL. I've written about this episode before, but it's worth repeating. But I once did a Tenderfoot or Second Class (can't remember all the particulars) BOR for a 16-year-old who had been in the troop for about 4 years and who also had like over 50 nights camping and 150 miles hiking. He also was excellent hunter and fisherman.

The BOR thought it was a mistake, but the kid confirmed, yes he indeed was just a Scout (or whatever that preceding rank was). Naturally we were a little curious and started asking questions. He just replied he didn't like "all that advancement stuff" and that he just like to hike and camp with his buddies. At summer camp, he would spend every hour at the shooting or archery range or the waterfront. I don't think he ever completed a MB. 

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. 

I gotta say,  I'm an Eagle and been in adult leadership for about 6 years. I have never seen such discussion about the way advancement is entered and kept. Regardless of all the blue cards, Scout handbooks, etc. at some point, it has to go into a database. No two ways about it. 

Doesn't your Scout's advancement end up on the troop's computer (or the advancement chair's), which is then periodically uploaded to council? 

This centralized database is what council and National are looking to as to whether a Scout has met the requirements for Eagle. 

Handbooks and blue cards are excellent ways to teach responsibility and self-reliance, but to say they are "the official record" and we don't accept anything else is kinda cray. The official record of a Scout's advancement rests in that Council's database. 

I have never in my life turned a blue card into Council. There are 10 ways to earn a MB and only in a couple of instances, are we able to use a Blue Card with any success. 

Your local council is still your best bet. I tracked down my Eagle info from the new council that replaced my old council, which merged. And  they found it in seconds. As far as any more advancement info beyond Eagle stuff, good luck. The council I was dealing with did not have any OA records or any other advancement records except copies of old charters. Not sure they had centralized reporting of advancement until the computer systems came on line.

SST3rd, what on earth is your council using to record advancement? With most councils, advancement records are uploaded or recorded  in council's database. When you submit an Eagle App, council checks the dates against their records and if all matches up, they approve it. 

I mean it's good you're using the book, MB cards and all that paper, but if a new Scout from another council transfers in with his old council's computer printout, are you saying you wouldn't honor it? Plus, what good does all the paper do if council  has no record of anything.? Am I missing something? 

Our Scoutmaster came up with a good way to get in some leg training and backpacking treks for us flatlanders who may not have many weekends to devote to skakedown hikes in preparations for Philmont and the AT.  

He did this weekend's 15K with a full  pack. And we have a slew of 15K and 5K race/walks coming up between now and summer sponsored by various nonprofits. Excellent way for the Scouts - and the adults - to break in boots, get used to carrying weight, etc. - without having to devote a full weekend to shakedown treks (although there is no substitute for that). Plus, if the troop is involved, it can count as a troop activity and maybe  count for certain day hikes needed for MB or rank. 

You people obviously have some time on your hands. Why don't you spend some of that time to help me in my crusade to revamp the Eagle Project Workbook. 

14 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

I’m only 15, I started my proposal when I was 14.

That's interesting because that is the age group having the toughest time. Maybe  they need to  slow or maybe you are really smart, which you probably are.

5 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

I personally found it extremely easy to fill out, and it took me little time. The only time it repeats is some things from the proposal is in the final report.

It was a pain emailing and sometimes loading but it worked.

Ive done it within the past 4-5 months so it’s pretty recent.

You may be in the minority here. But there seems to be a correlation with age.  Are you an adult or youth? 

My son and a buddy were thinking of doing the Philmont Trail Crew trek. Has anyone on here done  this or is familiar with it? If so, did they like it or have they heard good things about it? Also, the website is kind of scarce on details. It seems like a week of work, then a weeklong trek. If so, where do they stay in the first week? Are meals provided? Where do they eat, etc. ? 

What's the trek like? How many miles? Will they be able to get a 50-miler in? 

Any details you can provide would be helpful. 

Tx in advance. 

Wouldn't it be great if we could somehow fix this problem? Which brings me back to my OP. Does anyone from National follow this forum?  

Yeah, the "leadership to others" wasn't in the requirement when I did my project. But it was an awesome project that involved tons of Scouting skills. 

We blazed, mapped and marked a 30-mile trail from my hometown to the Scout Camp. I took responsibility for the first 15 miles and my buddy took responsibility for the second 15 for his Eagle project. We did it on weekends, which meant backpacking and camping as we progressed along our route. 

It involved some serious orienteering (90 degrees due east from town to camp and you pretty much had to maintain that heading going from point to point) although we had to detour around a humongous beaver dam.  Then we had to get permissions from landowners. 

But imagine our pride when the District did a camporee called the "Crow Hike," which followed our trail. This was an area of NC that didn't have a lot of hiking trails. 

One document consisting of two parts. And if you are insisting on hard signatures, then a signature page that includes both PRE and POST signatures. This way eliminates all the insertion and all that crap. You just scan a signature page when you are done (or take a photo of it) and add to the Workbook. But right now, we have a signature page embedded in the Proposal and a signature page embedded into the Report. Plus the contact info page, which seems totally superfluous to me. 

And do we need we really need a distinction between material and supplies (or whatever it is)?

I'm almost fairly certain I could get the Proposal and the Report down to one page each (10 point). You ought to see the Eagle Reference Letter I did for the Council. It is a thing of beauty. Contains Oath and Law and space for comments. It's one page. 

44 minutes ago, Back Pack said:

As someone who recently completed this document I agree it is very bad. The biggest issue not yet mentioned is the process of the three documents the workbook contain. The proposal is straight forward enough but could be refined a bit to capture more key elements of the proposal development process. The project plan should mirror the proposal but should include another signature or validation step. This is the detailed blueprint for doing the project and where kids need the most help. The report should be designed to help kids identify what went well, what didn’t and what they learned as a result. The current workbook seems like it was written by several people with several voices and is too hard to follow. I guess I did learn something in my 12th Grade English class after all. 

No. My post goes exactly to the three parts. It needs to be two. That is really the heart of the matter. That and digital vs paper. Anything that smacks of paper is step backward. Since we submit the proposals digitally in our district, you have people scanning signature pages and then trying to insert them into the PDF document, which I think is impossible unless you have Adobe's paid product. I don't think the free PDF version allows you insert pages. Plus, we require printed copies at the BOR. Just a cluster any way you look at it. And very few Scouts understand how to digitally compress a photo so that it's small enough to insert into the PDF,  which means they just attach photos. And that turns what should be a 2 MB file into a 5 or 6 MB file, which is too large for some of the freeware email providers. 

Does anyone know if folks from  National follow this site? 

Here's the deal: It is time for BSA to seriously consider reformatting the Eagle Project Workbook. As an English major, a professional writer and an ex-Journalism teacher, I would give this form a D if someone turned it into me. 

It's confusing, muddled, lacks clarity and is difficult for many Scouts to fill out. Much of it is repetitive. It looks to me like a document that was simply added to over the years. Something put together by a committee with people chiming in "Let's add this...." 

For such an important part of an important award, we can do better. I could fix this thing in about a week and working with a computer person, we could come up with a PDF form that would actually work. 

I have signed many of these things as a Committee Chair. And I have reviewed many of them sitting on Eagle BORs. So I know a little bit of what I'm talking about. I am now working as a Life to Eagle coach for our troop. 

Sooo, BSA National, if your intent was to challenge the Scout by making the paperwork needlessly complex so the Trail to Eagle is that much harder, congratulations, you succeeded. 

Texas, do you hear me? 

On 12/27/2017 at 8:43 PM, gblotter said:

I think I understand different perspectives from sitting on Eagle BORs for many years.

While some highlight the maturity and experience of an Eagle Scout candidate who presents himself at 17 years and 11 months and 29 days, I find myself fighting back negative thoughts. Sometimes he doesn't even own a Scout shirt that fits him anymore, and his most recent patches are from attending summer camp in 2014. Asking a simple question like "when was the last time you went camping with your troop?" reveals that he went inactive years ago and only returned for some last-minute cramming to finish his Eagle. Occasionally he even admits his motivation is to list Eagle Scout on his college applications. I honestly scratch my head and wonder why others praise his procrastination as something we like to see in BSA.

I contrast that with a recent 14 year-old Eagle Scout from our troop. He is on fire with Scouting and hasn't missed a campout in two years. He attended his Eagle Scout BOR wearing 42 merit badges on his sash. Contrary to dropping out of Scouting after earning Eagle, he is now pursuing OA membership and has plans to attend two different BSA summer camps in 2018. He leads by example and has motivated other Scouts by showing what is possible when you "strike while the iron is hot". I know some will reflexively dismiss him simply because of his age, but to me he epitomizes a dedicated Scout who has made Eagle a priority over other endeavors. (BTW: One of his biased reviewers spent 20 minutes trying to rattle him by aggressively quizzing him on the symbolic elements of the First Class badge, fleur-de-lis, etc - as if that would be somehow be a basis for denying him Eagle. It was embarrassing and the other reviewers were perplexed by the entire line of questioning.)

We all have our biases, and I don't expect to change any minds on this topic. I will simply say that I take much more pleasure in reviewing an enthusiastic 14 year-old who is overflowing with Scout spirit as opposed a nonchalant 18 year-old who barely managed to limp across the finish line.

Terrible BOR. I serve on Eagle BORs and I would have stopped the guy questioning the parts of the badge after about two questions. 

Lol. Great question. And I'm laughing because I remember a very specific BOR with a 16-year-old. It was for Second Class.  We have about 100 kids in the troop, so I didn't know them all. 

All I knew was the next BOR was for Second Class. Well,  in strolls this 16-year-old kid.  We thought it was a mistake and we were checking the  name on the IHR and everything. And the kid speaks up: "No you got it right. I'm here for the Second Class BOR." 

This kid had been a Scout since he was 11. AND he had over 75 miles hiking and over 40 nights camping. He had been to summer camp a couple of times and maybe even a Jamboree or Philmont - can't remember which. Plus, he had about a dozen MB. 

So the conversation starts and the kid says he never really had an interest in advancement. He just like to camp, hike, fish, hunt, etc. Just a real outdoorsy kid who apparently hated the advancement stuff and had found a home with an organization that would get him in the outdoors. We told him it was cool, but that we could certainly use his experience and age in leading younger Scouts. The Scout knew how to cook, first-aid, build fires, pitch tents, even knots and  lashings. 

I think it was his last rank but he stayed active until he was 18. And as I said, he was a super kid. 

So different strokes for different folks. 

Big fan of  blue cards here.  Great way to track what Scout has done and hasn't. Strange that many camps won't sign them or  fill them out. Guess there are too many Scouts. Our advancement chair accepts electronic reporting from MB counselors and it's kinda sad, but not my call. Scout should  have a blue card if he has an incomplete. 

When I serve on Eagle BORs, I get a real kick outta the Scouts who have kept all the their blue cards and put them in a notebook like baseball cards. They bring them to the BOR and invariably ask "Do you want to see my blue cards?" 

Most definitely, I reply. 

Oh, and DEFINITELY keep MB counselors off the recharter. They do their application and send it to Council with their YPT. End of story. 

The reason is that next year's recharter will include all the MB counselors. And so will the year after that when their YPT has lapsed. And then you have to either take them off the recharter or chase them down for YPT renewal. Plus, I'm feeling sorta iffy on all these "in-house MB counselors" anyway, especially for Eagle MBs. 

I just retired my committee chair post and having been through rechartering a few years with one of  the larger troops on this forum (100+ Scouts), I can give you a couple pieces of advice:

1. Keep the adult roster as small as you can. I'll explain later. You need to have the SM, the CC,  possibly the charter rep, and the ASMs. Most of committee members - treasurer, adv chair - are not registered leaders in our troop. Same for Patrol Advisors. However, I think our Life to Eagle guy is an ASM. 

2. The list will grow mid-year if you have different adults  leading Sea Base, Philmont, etc. ALL of those adults need to registered. I typically registered them mid-year for the reason I'm gonna list below. 

3. All registered leaders must have current Youth Protection on file with Council or your recharter will be rejected. That means one adult who hasn't done his youth protection can hold up the re-charter of a 100-Scout troop - at least in our council.

4. Because we are one of the oldest "continuously chartered" troops in the U.S., getting the charter complete before the deadline was a big deal. Hence the small leadership roster. BTW, our troop dates back to 1917. Not the oldest, but pretty darn old. 

5. Now, to me, Youth Protection was a different matter. I liked all adults who camped with us to have YPT, even if they are not registered leaders. I just didn't want that YPT holding up a recharter. I kept track of this on a separate spreadsheet. 

But the poster who said the SM shouldn't be handling this is exactly right. Frankly, I think rechartering is a CC's most important duty in addition to the BORs. No  need for a SM to have to deal with that. 

Hope this helps.

I like being with my boys.  Heading out for errands off-site is sometimes a bothersome necessity.  In terms of boy led, maybe I spend too much time jaw-jacking with them, but they seem to enjoy it as well.  Sometimes I often feel that they would get more done if I wasn't around as much, but they've never had to stand in line to get my attention either.

 

Every year at summer camp, I take each PL, individually, and have them eat with the "adults".  The adults sit with their back to the patrol of the PL.  He has left his patrol in the hands of his APL.  During the dinner there is a one-sided conversation that is expected throughout the meal.  The PL is to watch the patrol and report to the adults everything he observes going on.  Who's fighting with whom.  Who's sitting around doing nothing.  Who's doing all the work.  Is the APL doing his job. etc. etc.  The adults are expected to say NOTHING! The only thing an adult can say something is if the boy has an empty mouth and is not talking.  Then they can say something like, "What are the boys doing now?"

 

When dinner's over, the only comment I make is, "I'm glad we had this opportunity to chat."  It is surprising how much the boys learn about group dynamics by NOT being deeply involved in it and can see things they wouldn't if they are focused within the group.

 

To me, this is probably the most important and only truly relevant thing I do all week long at camp.  ....besides reading a good book or two....

This is a pretty good idea. A bit intense, but very important lessons are learned.

That was unscout-like at the very least and role models a bad example of patrol method.

 

Question: if I could complete a round of golf in two hours, am I good to go?

 

Barry

Nearby driving range? Probably. But the problem you have is when the other parents see you loading your sticks on the bus.