Krampus

I can't believe you guys are saying she is justified for being hurt by it????

 

She shouldn't take it personal......Because it isn't personal.

 

 

 

But sure, you do not dwell on it. You move on and chalk it up to them being prats and go on with what you do best.

Reason #583,773,230 for not living in California....and I was BORN there.

I agree with Krampus ... to a degree. The term "disability" is too loosely used.

 

I've had excellent experience with scouts that have some level of asbergers, autism or a disability. They are excellent scouts. I've also had scouts that come from broken homes or with parents in jail. We can work with them too. To be honest, I'm confounded when people talk of the category of asbergers as some type of really bad diagnosis. From what I see, they function fine in families and in society.

 

The category I have had little success integrating into the troop is "EBD"... i.e. significant / severe emotional behavioral disorders. Oppositional. Defiant. Strong anti-social behavior. Meanness. "I believe" (not a clinician) those fall into the term severe or significant "emotional behavior disorders" ... "EBD". I'm at the point that when I see it demonstrated, we may or may not give a warning and/or a 2nd chance. The result is separation from the troop.

 

If the scout is willing to work with us, great! We accept them. But if they want to bring meanness, oppositional, defiant or strong anti-social behaviors into the troop, they need to move on ... and very quickly move on.

Would the leaders tolerate it if the kids were calling them "the fat ASM" or "the dorky ASM" or "the bald ASM" or stuff like that?

I get the "guys being guys" mentality, but this is not a sports team we are talking about. Scouting is supposed to be about higher ideals. I always challenge my guys to be the one in school who stops people like that from picking on other kids, to sit with the kid who has no friends and try to be his friend. What ever happened to a Scout is a friend to all?

Ask the kids being called those names and see how they like it. My bet is they don't. As leaders we need to set the example. We don't have to be perfect, but if the kids see us doing it then what do you think they will do? And how do you think the recipient will feel when Scouters AND Scouts start calling him stuff?

Remember this is the same organization that requires you to fill out a new application for every role you hold in Scouting, rather than simply adding the new role(s) to your existing profile. Their new "toolkit" is worthless and does not work. I recently retook my YPT but I did not show up in their new tracking tool. Go figure.

We keep track at the troop-level using Troopmaster and having our volunteers submit to us their training completions. We also track other training in TM. We then reconcile with the myscouting tools later....which are usually wrong.

Dropping off a car for PWD but not being there? What's the point? I'll bet he does not come to Pack meetings either.

Sounds to me like the parents have some reason to dislike what you did or may simply disagree with your approach. Whatever it is I would not let it worry you. You cannot drag Scouts over the finish line. At the Cub level it is a joint effort between scout, parents and their leader. If the parents want the scout to complete the requirements they should get with the CM and make that happen if they don't want to do it with you.

Personally, I would be cordial to the folks but would not go out of my way for them. If this was important to them they would have acted back in September and not three weeks before B&G.

My Council provides free patches with Internet advancement report from BSA. HOWEVER, they will sell unit leaders (SM, CC and Advancement Chair) the patches Scout through Life. I have a "stash" of rank patches and award just-in-time right after a BOR. The boys still get a second patch at the next COH along with their card. As long as I bring a report from Troopmaster showing the awards and BOR dates my Council is cool with that. Now, I am in a BIG council and we have a few shops. The "downtown" shop is a bit more stringent on insisting on BSA Internet advancement forms. The ones outside the city are a bit more lenient.

As a Scout in the 70s our SM gave out badges as we earned them....a big reason I stayed in Scouts as long as I did. COHs were for Eagles and MBs back then. Always went to COHs because you wanted to support the guys who made Eagle...there were fewer back then. A lot fewer. ;-)

As a cub scout dad and scouter, I have a question. It's not exactly on track but I hope it relates well enough to add to the discussion..... I think it may help to look at the issue from a different angle.

 

In a boy lead troop as I have see described, what the blazes to the adult leaders even do? As someone described above, the adults couldn't even unlock the doors or the trailer because that was the scout's job. So, what does a SM & ASM really even do?.... sit back and watch?..... answer questions if asked?.... take the boys to the hospital after an incident?....

 

I'm hopeful this is helpful to the original poster.... instead of asking what do you need to do for the boys or whatever, or what do the boys need to do?.... the better question to ask may be "what should I as the adult leader NOT be doing?"

 

My personal reason for asking is for a better understanding of my future in scouting..... and also, i believe that our pack may be a little too adult focused. I'm thinking a little bit more boy envolvement may be good at our stage of the game, too.

The "controlled failure" is when Scouters sit back and, after having taught the Scouts how to do something, let them learn through controlled failure. Now, this notion is not used in something dangerous like rifle, achery or climbing. But we don't step in and load the trailer for the Scouts just because it is taking too long. But there is s BIG difference between Cubs and Boy Scouts. With Cubs the goal is to help them learn which means more adult teaching. In Boy Scouts the boys get taught by other boys and occassionally by the adults.

As Baden-Powell once said, "Never do for a boy what he can do for himself." I love that quote and use it to illustrate to overbearing parents that unless they are doing Jonny's Algebra homework too, they should not be keeping track of his First Class requirements for him either. ;-)

@Twocubdad....I work with computers, networks and all that technical stuff but I cannot build a damn thing with wood because to me 2 5/8 and 2 3/4 are close enough to each other. ;-) I have the patience to program a data base but not to fit two dove-tail joints together. I would wager you are MUCH smarter than I am. ;-)

Think of data bases like a drawer of tools. If you are organized, every drawer holds a different set of tools. Each tool is used for a different purpose. Combine tools and you can do many different things. Knowing where the tools are and how to combine them, well THAT is the real trick. You can have all the tools in all the right drawers but without the knowledge of how to use them properly you may end up with a set of stairs that are not plumb. Data and data bases are very much the same. You can collect the data but unless you know how to present it and mine it you can end up with junk.

I just tried to use the new Scouting "tools" on myscouting that was released this week and it looks like they hired a group of 11 year-olds to develop the system. It does not work, is not intuitive (and I work with this stuff daily) and is not an improvement over what they had. Like ANY project -- beit building a cabinet or a data base -- you start with requirements. What does the customer want and need? What will the function be? How will they use it? What did they like/hate about their old thing? How much do they want to spend?

So in what you do for a living and what I do for a living we approach it the same way. I think BSA, as with many things they do, approached the building of this latest data base they was BSA usually does things: Confusing, half-assed and missed the mark. ;-)

Gotta say that half the posts here are pretty ill-informed when it comes to working with Scouts with disabilities. We have a boy who is higher functioning autistic and three kids with Aspergers. I wish I had mroe Scouts like my autistic kid. He is polite, always says "hi" and really works hard. Yes it is a bit like herding cats with him but his friends in his patrol really help him. The Aspergers kids are the same way. Yes they are a handful at times but never more so than any other "normal" kids we have.

I think the person who said earlier that putting labels on a kid makes you look at them differently has it spot on! Whether the kid is "normal" or has a disability, the monitoring of, and discipline system for these kids should be the SAME. It should not make a lick of difference if the kid has Aspergers or not. If the kid is doing stuff at Scout events that warrants punishment then serve it up fast and make sure the parents are involved. Explain what happens if it happens again or while under "probation". HOWEVER, you need to guard against scapegoating too. All too often kids with such disabilities are treated differently and alientated by the other Scouts. We assigned Guides to help our Scouts with Aspergers and met with their patrols to discuss what to expect and to heavily suggest they keep an open mind and help the guys. Too many times the kids with difficulties are demonized which leads to further aggressive behavior.

You may not be a mental health professional, but I bet you were never a canoeing expert, survival expert or marksman in the military either...and yet you developed those skills to help teach your Scouts. Knowing how to handle kids with a special needs like this is just another skill as a Scouter you will need to learn. Like WFA, knots or any other skill you wanted to learn to be a Scouter, this is just another skill. Whether you WANT to learn it or not is up to you.

Why would the troop buy merit badge books?????

 

Many of my scouts have ipod, and some even some smart phones

Copyright is a big deal and violating that not only asks for legal remedies, it is a clear violation of the Scout Law, at least one of them, and the Oath.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with creating a 'lending library' for the troop to use. Old copies of the pamphlets can be donated by boys once they're finished with the merit badges or they can be purchased directly by the troop. OR multiple boys who intend to work on the same badge can share the cost and purchase a single shared copy.

 

But Copyright does prohibit MAKING COPIES, no matter what form they take, even if not for profit.

 

Krampus, telling someone about a criminal activity is not a crime in itself, even if the reader decides to engage in the criminal activity as a result. However, the better action would be to inform those who are breaking the law that they should stop, BEFORE they receive that stiff note from an attorney.

A few years ago there was a website that had many of the MB books online in PDF format. However, they were forced to take them down by BSA which, as pointed out above, was likely for financial reasons. Ironically, many other BSA publications are freely available (like the troop program guide) online directly from BSA.

Our troop encourages scouts to donate their MB books to our troop library. When we have a large number of scouts taking a class (i.e., at summer camp) we will purchase a few books on behalf of the troop and put them in our libaray. We have a database which our Librarian uses to keep track of the books and he opens the "library" before each meeting for Scouts to check in/out books as needed.

Oddly enough I was able to find one troop online who had scanned a large number of MB books into PDFs and have made them available. Bad boys. ;-) It is not all of them but the ones they own copies of. I am not a lawyer so I am not sure if that is legal or not (suspect it isn't). The link is enough to find. Don't want to post as I really don't want to go to jail for aiding and abetting. ;-)

Broken the oath and broken the law = no Eagle.... Hmmm, yeah...

 

How many adult leaders have ever driven 5 mph over the speed limit on a scout outing? BROKEN THE LAW

How many adult leaders have ever padded their charitiable contribution on their tax return? BROKEN THE LAW

How many adult leaders have gone out in a non-scouting funciton and had a little too much to drink, or used bad language, or smoked, or had sex with someone prior to marriage? BROKEN YOUR OATH

 

Before we as adults begin to throw the hypothetical stones at a scout, we better get our own houses in order folks!

 

Just because you make a mistake in life, it doesn't disqualify you from being a good person. It doesn't disqualify you from grace. It certainly shouldn't disqualify you from being an Eagle scout as a lad.

Eagledad, you offer great wisdom. I see your point that a program not fully under the boys’ control can be a primary reason for the low interest of older scouts.

 

I am working on having the scouts take over even more of the program. Unfortunately the current youth leadership, made up mostly of the oldest boys, is a bit unenthusiastic (bordering on having bad attitudes). Giving them the reins doesn’t mean they will take the reins.

 

I don’t want to give up on them yet (although the next generation of youth seem pretty darn sharp). I’d like to be able to propose at the next PLC some fresh ideas for a better troop meeting for the older scouts. But remember, these scouts don’t want high adventure. They aren’t very motivated either. I’m hoping that I can get some ideas to offer them at the next PLC to help get them out of their malaise. I’m hoping I could even turn these guys around before the next election.

First PLC of the new leaders I told them to through out the rule book and plan the mtgs and events for fun. Did not care if it took 30 mins or 2 hours of time. told them we had budget for a few things and gave them some seed ideas. Next thing I knew they had planned a few archery outings at the local range, night-time orienteering sessions where pizzas were hidden in the woods and the patrols had to navigate a few courses to find their stash, mouse-trap car derbies, movie night (usually something like a History Channel or Discovery Channel educational thing, and several other cool events. Attendance came back and guys got interested again. Maybe some of those things will work for your guys.

Krampus, the boy is in trouble on several levels. It seems to me that the fate of scout advancement is less important than to trying to help him turn things around somehow. Yes, if efforts to HELP the boy fail, then I would support closing some advancement options. Big deal! If that's the case the real damage is already done.

I happen to know many cases in which teenagers who make really stupid decisions turn their lives around and serve as great examples for others. Would you slam the door on all those? Is there no room at all for redemption?

 

Let me put it in different terms. If a boy tried to cross a stream at high water and was swept away, I would gladly risk my life to try to save him. Here, the boy may have tried something that could be just as life-changing down the road. The risk is that he will eventually lose his life. The last thing I'm going to worry about is some stupid advancement question. To me there is a much more pressing threat that I am willing to sacrifice greatly to avoid if I think I can help this boy avoid that 'cliff' that he's running headlong toward. (this mixed metaphor was brought to you by Packsaddle)

 

Whether he makes Eagle or not, to me, is just not as important a question and certainly is one that can be answered after the real problem is addressed.

 

Speaking hypothetically, of course.

1) No Eagle. Too many rules broken as well as laws. And as was pointed out previously, likely not his first time smoking the stuff.

2) Saving the soul. Of course you do this. but at this point the unit works with the CO and parents to get the kid help. But, IMHO, that's where it stops officially for the unit. You want the kid to get straight and to not become another statistic, but the unit has a duty to the other Scouts to make sure the unit is a safe place. If the Scout gets help and comes back, that is up to the CO and the unit if they take him back.

Not an easy issue. But if it was my troop I would want the kid to get serious help and, sadly, I think the trust would be a long, long time in coming back before I let the kid out of my sight.

Fred, I think we all agree that we try to fix the situation. But that fix is to register, pay the back dues and complete all the paperwork that makes you a legitimate Scout. Barring that being done ANY other action is against BSA policy and is an insult to the kids and adults who DO follow the process. Of course no one is going to tell him his mom (and previous troop leaders) were clueless and caused this issue. But Eagle cannot be handed out unless process and rules are followed. To do otherwise sends the message of "Don't worry about the rules, Timmy. Someone will always fix it for you." At some point we have to draw the line.

I asked, and suggested that it might be a great communciations merit badge oppurtunity...... No takers, I am considering having the patrol leaders announce and hand out the awards to each of their patrols.

I would say you should get your CC and others on the committee to help, search the Net for a script for a COH (you can PM me and I can send you ours), show the Scouts what they need to do and jointly plan it together. The fun part is there is no right way or wrong way to have a COH. Most of it is just like a regular Scout meeting except you have more awards.

This is the unreliable thing about hypotheticals: until we actually confront a real situation and know the specifics, we don't REALLY know what we'd do in response.

 

The thing is, despite the tiny amount of information we have about this situation and the fact that we KNOW almost nothing about it, some of us HAVE been quick to provide their reactions AS IF the worst scenario was true. And it's ok for them to have those kinds of thought excercises. But I think it is equally easy, IF they want to play with those scenarios, to respond FIRST with how to HELP those hypothetical boys in that hypothetical situation.

I think some of you need to read a bit slower. I see many people talking about IF it is true. This is speculation. I don't see too many here hanging people for no evidence. They are talking about how they would handle the situation IF it were true. Don't see anything wrong with that.

However, unlicensed distribution of Pot is still a Federal crime and a state crime, even in pot-use legal states. And I don't think there is any place in the US where recreational pot use by minors is legal.

 

Eh, it's just drugs ... give'em the Eagle ... puts a new definition on "flying high".

Yeah .... I tend to agree it's not the best idea, but it's in line with what has happened so far and it works to smoothly close the door. It's unofficial and everyone knows it. Perhaps instead of calling it "Eagle Scout", call it the "Spirit of the Eagle" award. Doesn't really matter what it is called as it's unofficial and such.

 

The end all is that there is nothing that can be done to fix the situation.

 

What can be done is to find a way to recognize the youth and make him proud and glad for the time he has been in scouts. It sounds like he has learned and benefitted from scouts. Hopefully, he will do the same for his own kids ... and also register them.

To give the kids ANYTHING -- unless he joins, pays back dues and goes throught he process -- is a mockery of all those other hard working kids who work their butts off every week to actually follow the rules.

At some point in this country we have to try to stop fixing people being stupid and let the consequences fall where they may. Otherwise we will be wiping this guys butt for the next 30 years or more. No thanks! No Eagle. Move on.

BDPT00, let's not confuse illegal activity (pot smoking, shoplifting) with things like sexual activity or cheating which are more moral or ethical issues. For my money if ANY scout does anything illegal he cannot make Eagle right away because he has failed this requirement inherent in every rank:

"Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life."

Also, any Scout I know to be dishonest would have to work a while to earn back that trust.

No one has convicted the kid. People are engaging in conjecture if he is OR isn't guilty of the offense.

Actually, a pot-smoking Eagle IS worse than an Eagle with no skills, for at least the latter is keeping himself morally straight...to the extent that means anything anymore.

Smoking pot is hard to hide. That smell sticks around on people and clothes. If the kid has been around a long time in the troop it is hard to believe he is just now getting caught. We had kids in my troop growing up who smoked in the woods and the smelled like an ashtray. Why the adults never cuaght on (on did anything about it) still amazes me. There was no way to miss it and ALL the guys in the troop knew. *If* this has been going on a while the boys all know....though how it was missed by the adults would baffle me. Agree Eagle is out if the evidence points to drug use. If you have eye witnesses then that's it. If not, you have to assume he's telling the truth.

 

Either way, he will likely leave your troop after the accusation is made and go elsewhere. You can put it in his record for your troop what you found. If other troops elect to talk to you that's up to them.