Krampus

From the BSA "Guide to Awards and Insignia" 2012 edition -

 

"ordeal sash, No. 2167; long, No. 2168; Scout or Scouter; worn only with the field uniform, over right shoulder, under epaulet of shirt; NEVER WORN ON BELT OR WITH MERIT BADGE SASH. “Legend strips†or “sash backs†are not official and may not be worn on the sash or with the uniform."

 

The highlighting is mine (the "advanced" editing only results in the edit tag text being inserted into your text, not any actual bold, underline, color, etc).

 

The same instructions are listed for the Brotherhood, and Vigil, sashes.

 

One wonders, Krampus, how you missed looking at the Insignia Guide when pondering where to where official insignia? Here is the address for the Guide on the BSA National Website (inserting links also only results in link text being added. It does not actually make it into a link) -

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide.aspx

Again, thanks.

One of the nearby troops is really into OA and they all seem to wear OA sashed at most formal occasions. I've been to a few of their Eagle Courts of Honor with most of their Scouts wearing their OA sash over their shoulder with their MB sashes tucked into their belts. Of course, you can't tuck-in all those MBs you earned, so the older guys with the most MBs wear their sashes hanging down past their knee. It really, really looks stupid.

From the BSA "Guide to Awards and Insignia" 2012 edition -

 

"ordeal sash, No. 2167; long, No. 2168; Scout or Scouter; worn only with the field uniform, over right shoulder, under epaulet of shirt; NEVER WORN ON BELT OR WITH MERIT BADGE SASH. “Legend strips†or “sash backs†are not official and may not be worn on the sash or with the uniform."

 

The highlighting is mine (the "advanced" editing only results in the edit tag text being inserted into your text, not any actual bold, underline, color, etc).

 

The same instructions are listed for the Brotherhood, and Vigil, sashes.

 

One wonders, Krampus, how you missed looking at the Insignia Guide when pondering where to where official insignia? Here is the address for the Guide on the BSA National Website (inserting links also only results in link text being added. It does not actually make it into a link) -

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide.aspx

BTW, while looking through the BSA sight I did run across one document called Guide to Awards and Insignia only to find after looking more closely at it that it was an "excerpts" doc and not the full thing. Typical BSA: Why be direct when you can be confusing.

One of the nearby troops is really into OA and they all seem to wear OA sashed at most formal occasions. I've been to a few of their Eagle Courts of Honor with most of their Scouts wearing their OA sash over their shoulder with their MB sashes tucked into their belts. Of course, you can't tuck-in all those MBs you earned, so the older guys with the most MBs wear their sashes hanging down past their knee. It really, really looks stupid.

How you see it is one thing. What's 'by the book' is another.

Sashes are worn over the right shoulder (not elsewhere).

BDPT00

So what is an Arrowman to do when he wears Class A and wants to display both? If there is no written BSA policy about wearing either sash folded over the belt (as long as it does not look stupid) then the "local option" sounds the right answer.

Krampus: You will find NOTHING offishul about wearing the OA sash or the MB sash anywhere other than over the right shoulder. Tucked into/over the belt is a "local option" (there's that term again)/ tradition/convenience. It does seem appropriate sometimes (sort of like the Totin'Chip being pocket flap shaped, I guess).

I say wear it right or don't wear it. Roll it up in your winter coat pocket, put it on for the ceremony, roll it up again for the wide game after the meeting.

 

>>>Make Sure the Scout's Name is Marked on the Sash, on the Inside/Underside. <<<<<

I agree the MB sash should be worn for dress events. I personally don't see an issue with Arrowmen wearing thiers flapped over as long as it is done nicely (a la the old flight caps tucked in to the belt). ;-)

When I joined out troop we had a "tradition" of OA guys wearing their MB sash folded over their belt over the right pants leg. At summer camp a few years back one of my Eagle Scouts was dressed down by some SM in another troop as wearing the MB sash inappropriately. Cannot find anywhere in the BSA guidelines that say this method was/wasn't legit. Anyone ever heard of this?

@rdcolv

We have one Scouter who is "medicine man" on each camp out. We have a form which parents must fill out by hand noting dosage, medicine, time of day, etc. The meds, even over the counter, must be in originals containers and in a ziploc bag with the Scout's name on it. Every med must have the Scout's name on it and accompanied by the above sheet. The Medicine Man makes morning and evening rounds (or others as needed) with another Scouter. We have each boy's med and health form in a binder we take with us. Guys needing rescue inhalers or epipens are allowed to carry one with them but we have a second with us. We always carry emergency meds with us on hikes, etc. to make finding scouts with serious issues (asthma, allergies) information in our health book we color code their cover sheet based on urgency (I.e., guys with serious issues are red sheets). When hiking or out in the wilderness we always carry a personal locator beacon, radios and cell phones to communicate or get help. Lastly, I always get the local hospital info (or local/region CareFlight number if we are in remote areas and need extraction) and make sure all adults have that while at camp.

This system works well for our troop. It requires a lot of planning but once in place it works pretty well. Of course, we require all Scouters to observe HIPPA regs and not discuss Scouts' conditions or anything like that. Sounds draconian but we've been entrusted with essentially being parents to 70+ kids and we need to act accordingly.

Hope this helps.

Interesting article from a few years back on vBulletin.

http://www.apaddedcell.com/goodbye-vbulletin-part-1-reasons-switch

wow thats unreal someone needs to make him stepdown.the comitty or parents dont have any say on this.

I always say I serve at the pleasure of our TC, the Chair and the CO. I know that it only takes a vote at the TC or a request from the CO that I "step down". I have great relationships with them all, but they can remove me whenever they like. You guys don't have such a process?

" The vast majority of the reports are exported in a very ancient looking type of cobol layout - based upon the premise that the vast majority of the users are not technically savvy enough to manipulate the data (or they won't have the tools). "

 

What? If users don't have the ability to manipulate the data doesn't that mean they SHOULDN'T export it in some ancient, dense format?

 

But you're missing the point. I'm taking about the "UNIT TOOLS" on MyScouting which are purported to be used by the Average Joe unit Scouter. I'm two weeks out from recharter and all I want to know is who is an isn't trained to position, what they're missing and inparticular who needs youth protection. Maybe one day when someone is writing my obituary they'll want to know I took BALOO training in 2002, but for now, that's bit of information is just noise.

 

The data you're dealing with as district membership chairman is a whole 'nother animal. Working on district membership goals is likely to garner a good bit more help from the DE than most folks can otherwise expec.

In short, keep back up records. If you don't have troop master try a spreadsheet or Access DB. I never, ever trust council or national. They STILL don't have my records from having taken IOLS (twice, once when I crossed over and once to audit the course) after nearly five years of being a SM.

Question. What if I would like to earn one of these Leaders knots, but my pack is not actively participating in the square knot program? Should I encourage that the pack start participating in the program? I feel as though many of the leaders may find this laughable.

Brewmeister has it right...if they find it laughable they are silly. Leaders who take the knot requirements seriously are trying to develop a quality program.

Of course, I *do* find in funny when you see someone with more than 5 or 6 knots. If they are for something achieved (training, exellence in leadership or program) then I get it. If they are for donating money something like that I find those odd. Would rather have the knots be achievement based rather than participation or donating money.

Just an aside ... it would only take 4 youth elected (not 6).

BDPT00

Maybe this deserves a different thread ... but I'll ask it here anyway.

 

What do you for the older Scouts who are being held hostage by their parents? It would seem to me that a Scout in that position would be hard pressed to be interested, cooperative or anything close to functional as a Scout.

 

The Scouts that I'm talking about are those who can't do (or get) X, Y or Z until they Eagle. There are a couple of those in my son's Troop, no driver's license until they Eagle. I'll bet that kid is one happy camper (no pun intended).

 

My Scout was one of those, Grandparents, Dad, Uncles, Cousins, Mom all determined to drag him across the Eagle line, kicking and screaming if necessary. Mom has finally caught on...realized that Scouting is our boy's gig...not ours. He's all but done with Scouting now...done a couple of campouts and maybe 5 meetings this school year. High School (Marching Band, Honors Courses) have taken priority over reading Merit Badge books and filling out paperwork.

I *do* take the opportunity during each COH to ask the questions:

- Do you do your son's homework?

- Do you check and review all his home work and assignments?

- Do sign him up for school courses or social events or other functions rather than let him do it?

- Do you dress you son or lay out his clothes?

- If you don't do these this for him outside of Scouts, why do you do these things for him when it comes to Scouts?

I usually end with the Baden-Powell quote, "Never do for a boy what he can do for himself."

I am our district membership chair and spend a lot of time with my DE working with the BSA systems. On the one hand, they've gotten a LOT better. On the other hand, when you extract the data from scout.net (or whatever they're calling it these days), it provides very limited options - csv is one. The vast majority of the reports are exported in a very ancient looking type of cobol layout - based upon the premise that the vast majority of the users are not technically savvy enough to manipulate the data (or they won't have the tools). It took awhile but we (me & the DE) finally figured out how to get the data out in CSV format and then do something with it. Once I get the data into a usable format I then build pivot tables. It makes it *much* easier to work with. I did have to spend a lot of time in Excel to manipulate the data to get it into a flat file format so I could build those pivot tables - I used a lot of text formulas. All in all, you really need to be an Excel geek to make the data usable.

 

You also are probably dealing with the issue of the BSA feeling the data is confidential and they don't want to release it to just any joe. There's a lot of merit to that position despite how frustrating it is when we're trying to actually USE the data for something. The only suggestion I can offer is get to know your DE and be explicit about your data needs and how you would like to use the data. I took the approach of "help me help you" and spent time manipulating the data into a format that will help my DE do his job. Some DEs are more technically inclined than others though...!

 

Some Councils are rolling out a new tool called "Council Booster" - it's a fantastic start that has a TON of data about the Council and the Scouting aged youth in the area. You have the ability to punch in a zip code, for example, and it will show you a map that identifies if there are Scouting-aged youth at a particular address. They're paying for the access to the data and, so far, we haven't found a way to extract the data from Council Booster. So... the challenge continues.

Sure are dating yourself. My guess is there are a few JCL programmers here who could fix BSA's problems.

Just an aside ... it would only take 4 youth elected (not 6).

BDPT00

It is absolutely the forums business as to where you are writing your perspective from...... From your response the answer is probably yes.

 

BTW what is your scouting resume......again seein who we are talking too.

 

Mine, current SM, only 6 month, ASM 4 years, tiger, wolf, bear, webelos den leader, ACM, CM. Pack oudoor chair, District Day camp program director and CC...... I live and scout in a poor urban area, most of my scouts are from single parent, grand parent homes....Rarely is their a father figure involved. I have a troop committee of 8 60-70 year old Eagle scout life time troop members. and one other ASM in his 40's.

 

Far as the Eagle who smokes some weed......I would have suspended him and refused to sign his applicaiton. But it wouldn't have made any difference council would sign it any way. Compassion, no......I hold him to the same standard I live by......In the other thread I poked them about it being illegal, because in my lifetime it won't be.....

 

Worth the time, I don't have any more time......If I have to chose between a patrol of boys vs one autistic boy.......Guess who loses..........That is my reality, so unless the the Scouter Fairy delivers me 4 or 5 full trained ASM as volunteers it ain't gonna happen.

 

It is absolutely the forums business as to where you are writing your perspective from...... From your response the answer is probably yes.

 

BTW what is your scouting resume......again seein who we are talking too.

 

Mine, current SM, only 6 month, ASM 4 years, tiger, wolf, bear, webelos den leader, ACM, CM. Pack oudoor chair, District Day camp program director and CC...... I live and scout in a poor urban area, most of my scouts are from single parent, grand parent homes....Rarely is their a father figure involved. I have a troop committee of 8 60-70 year old Eagle scout life time troop members. and one other ASM in his 40's.

 

Far as the Eagle who smokes some weed......I would have suspended him and refused to sign his applicaiton. But it wouldn't have made any difference council would sign it any way. Compassion, no......I hold him to the same standard I live by......In the other thread I poked them about it being illegal, because in my lifetime it won't be.....

 

Worth the time, I don't have any more time......If I have to chose between a patrol of boys vs one autistic boy.......Guess who loses..........That is my reality, so unless the the Scouter Fairy delivers me 4 or 5 full trained ASM as volunteers it ain't gonna happen.

 

My reasons for helping kids like this is because I see so many people just dismiss them because its hard or uncomfortable. Like I said, I highly doubt all of your scouts come at you with the same problems all the time. You have to approach each scout differently. Kids with these diabilities are no different, they just require special attention. I think you would be amazed at just how easy it is to deal with these kids if you give a darn.

Sorry, but I hate to see ANY kid left behind or ignored and will do may best to make sure that never happens on my watch and in my troop. Limits? Sure, as I said above, if the kids is a true danger and/or professional help is not working. But you will never see me turn my back on a kid in need. You may not roll that way and that's your choice.

Well fred and krampus, I am one of two active adults in the troop. We have a 10 to 1 ratio.....

 

Our Troop does not have the resources to babysit or chaparone an unpredictable scout.

 

While you find it personally rewarding to help this one boy, I have a troop full of them abandon, no or single parent home, raised by grandparents, no father in the picture. Most of them have add/adhd issues on top of it all. This isn't your rosey suburban picture of a two parent home with a white picket fence, two new cars and a dog.

 

Now your going to throw a mildly autuistic scout in the mix?????

 

 

I am a bottom line kinda guy........I don't have the time or interest in having or getting the training for this, your comparison to WFA is a bad one, WFA benefits everyone on the trip as does rangemaster training, My spending hundreds of dollars and countless hours getting trained for one autistic scout doesn't make sense........Call me lazy or any other name.

 

 

Krampus,....guesiing your son is autistic?

I happen to have several such kids and have seen what happens when someone gives a damn about them. We are all volunteers here and give hundreds of hours every year in the development of these youth. I am certain you have issues that arise in your troop where only a single scout is affected and you handle it accordingly. All I am pointing out is that no one should single ANY kid out as not being worthy of the effort of saving UNLESS they have broken the law OR they are currently seeking professional help and it does not appear to be working. In such instances getting the kid out is the best for greater good.

I just find the fact that many seem to lumping these kids into a category of not being worth the time or "knowing limitations" as ironic. We deal with other kids with similar difficult issues (see thread of boy who smokes pot on camp outs and wants his Eagle) and seem to have plenty of compassion, yet in dealing with kids that may have special needs we seem to not be willing to go that extra mile. Just puzzles me.

Well fred and krampus, I am one of two active adults in the troop. We have a 10 to 1 ratio.....

 

Our Troop does not have the resources to babysit or chaparone an unpredictable scout.

 

While you find it personally rewarding to help this one boy, I have a troop full of them abandon, no or single parent home, raised by grandparents, no father in the picture. Most of them have add/adhd issues on top of it all. This isn't your rosey suburban picture of a two parent home with a white picket fence, two new cars and a dog.

 

Now your going to throw a mildly autuistic scout in the mix?????

 

 

I am a bottom line kinda guy........I don't have the time or interest in having or getting the training for this, your comparison to WFA is a bad one, WFA benefits everyone on the trip as does rangemaster training, My spending hundreds of dollars and countless hours getting trained for one autistic scout doesn't make sense........Call me lazy or any other name.

 

 

Krampus,....guesiing your son is autistic?

I happen to have several such kids and have seen what happens when someone gives a damn about them. We are all volunteers here and give hundreds of hours every year in the development of these youth. I am certain you have issues that arise in your troop where only a single scout is affected and you handle it accordingly. All I am pointing out is that no one should single ANY kid out as not being worthy of the effort of saving UNLESS they have broken the law OR they are currently seeking professional help and it does not appear to be working. In such instances getting the kid out is the best for greater good.

I just find the fact that many seem to lumping these kids into a category of not being worth the time or "knowing limitations" as ironic. We deal with other kids with similar difficult issues (see thread of boy who smokes pot on camp outs and wants his Eagle) and seem to have plenty of compassion, yet in dealing with kids that may have special needs we seem to not be willing to go that extra mile. Just puzzles me.

Gotta say that half the posts here are pretty ill-informed when it comes to working with Scouts with disabilities. We have a boy who is higher functioning autistic and three kids with Aspergers. I wish I had mroe Scouts like my autistic kid. He is polite, always says "hi" and really works hard. Yes it is a bit like herding cats with him but his friends in his patrol really help him. The Aspergers kids are the same way. Yes they are a handful at times but never more so than any other "normal" kids we have.

 

I think the person who said earlier that putting labels on a kid makes you look at them differently has it spot on! Whether the kid is "normal" or has a disability, the monitoring of, and discipline system for these kids should be the SAME. It should not make a lick of difference if the kid has Aspergers or not. If the kid is doing stuff at Scout events that warrants punishment then serve it up fast and make sure the parents are involved. Explain what happens if it happens again or while under "probation". HOWEVER, you need to guard against scapegoating too. All too often kids with such disabilities are treated differently and alientated by the other Scouts. We assigned Guides to help our Scouts with Aspergers and met with their patrols to discuss what to expect and to heavily suggest they keep an open mind and help the guys. Too many times the kids with difficulties are demonized which leads to further aggressive behavior.

 

You may not be a mental health professional, but I bet you were never a canoeing expert, survival expert or marksman in the military either...and yet you developed those skills to help teach your Scouts. Knowing how to handle kids with a special needs like this is just another skill as a Scouter you will need to learn. Like WFA, knots or any other skill you wanted to learn to be a Scouter, this is just another skill. Whether you WANT to learn it or not is up to you.

I don't know your personal situation so maybe this kid falls into the category where the parents don't reign him in and professional help has not helped him either. If that is the case then cutting him for the good of the troop would be a good move. However, it seemed the course the overall discussion was taking was that kids with this type of disability are all like that and not worth the effort, hence my reluctance to join that chorus. In the end, JoeBob, most volunteers are giving people who do not give up easily. I suspect you are one of those. Your gut will tell you what to do. I just urge others to not throw the baby out with the bathwater and consider these kids as normal kids who have special issue that are not insurmountable. That's all.

First off, congratulations on electing six Scouts to OA that allows you to nominate two Scouters. That's a lot of Scouts to send to OA. Well done!

For me OA has always been about upholding the ideals of Scouting and camping. As a Scout we used to only nominate those who were the elite campers of our troop. Back then it was a select few who got nominated. Now, like Eagle, it seems we hand this out to anyone. Personally, I would only send someone who met all the requirements (this is required by OA) AND those Scouters who demonstrated exceptional outdoorsmanship and camping. I would not send a Scouter who does not camp that often or who has less-than-decent camping skills.

My two cents.

I look at things like this like I do the sexual harrasment training at work...

 

First, if the individual being targeted takes offense, they need to let it be known. Then it is the duty of the manager / supervisor (i.e. adult leadership, SPL, PL) to discuss the issue with those involved and make sure it doesn't happen any longer. If the individual being targeted doesn't say anything, or goes along with it, or gives the teasting back to the orgininator, then its really not an issue, is it?

 

Second, the issue is between the teaser and teasee. One cannot claim a "hostile environment" because they are offended by something between two other scouts that are fine with it. Now, if the teasing is in the form of posters, graffiti, signs, etc... that would create an overall "hostile environment" in the unit area, then yes it needs to be addressed by anyone who takes offense.

 

Finally, one cannot report on behalf of another. You got a problem with someone picking on a 3rd kid, so be it. It is their interpersonal relationship to manage as they see fit.

 

Teasing, nicknames and the like is one way guys (well at least certain guys) bond. It is an acceptance into the group / clique / etc... it has gone on since the dawn of time and will continue to go on whether there is a policy for or against it. The best way to deal with it is on a case-by-case basis and to work with the youth to understand other people's feelings and boundaries and also to TEACH the kids how to deal with one of their peers that might offend them by taking it too far. Its part of growing up and learning to handle it on your own is also part of the growing up process.

 

Its funny how BSA's own policy forbids hazing or bullying.... yet even in today's watered down OA "ordeal" - there are still concepts in it that can be considered hazing and bullying... not the least of which are forced silence, forced labor and the rationing of food... I know a lot more people who would consider such acts bullying above and beyond giving a friend a nickname he may not fully embrace.

 

Dean

Case in point: I have two brothers in my troop...one taller than the other. The brothers look very much alike and are new to the troop. Obviously guys start calling one "the tall one" and the other "the short one". I asked them if they mind the nicknames and both said they were fine with it. Well, that went on about a month before it bolied over in two ways. First, the "short one" got ticked off that everyone was calling him that and not bothering to learn his real name. He eventually got in to it with a guy who used the nickname in a very passive manner. Second, using the nickname "tall one" eventually bleed into other nicknames and well-meaning jibes which eventually got to the kid.

So I really don't agree with the "boys will be boys" or "that's how guys bond" argument. That always seems to excuse this stuff or ignore how the recipient may feel...either on the surface or deep down. What's wrong with simply using they kid's name?

I would welcome an end to ALL tax dodges, no matter what or who they benefit and the entire current tax code, to be replaced by the Fair Tax. That would level the field and give the maximum 'local option' to every individual.

 

If the tax advantage is the margin which causes a person to choose to do good charitable things for others, then I have to question the depth of their commitment to those things.

Gotta say that half the posts here are pretty ill-informed when it comes to working with Scouts with disabilities. We have a boy who is higher functioning autistic and three kids with Aspergers. I wish I had mroe Scouts like my autistic kid. He is polite, always says "hi" and really works hard. Yes it is a bit like herding cats with him but his friends in his patrol really help him. The Aspergers kids are the same way. Yes they are a handful at times but never more so than any other "normal" kids we have.

 

I think the person who said earlier that putting labels on a kid makes you look at them differently has it spot on! Whether the kid is "normal" or has a disability, the monitoring of, and discipline system for these kids should be the SAME. It should not make a lick of difference if the kid has Aspergers or not. If the kid is doing stuff at Scout events that warrants punishment then serve it up fast and make sure the parents are involved. Explain what happens if it happens again or while under "probation". HOWEVER, you need to guard against scapegoating too. All too often kids with such disabilities are treated differently and alientated by the other Scouts. We assigned Guides to help our Scouts with Aspergers and met with their patrols to discuss what to expect and to heavily suggest they keep an open mind and help the guys. Too many times the kids with difficulties are demonized which leads to further aggressive behavior.

 

You may not be a mental health professional, but I bet you were never a canoeing expert, survival expert or marksman in the military either...and yet you developed those skills to help teach your Scouts. Knowing how to handle kids with a special needs like this is just another skill as a Scouter you will need to learn. Like WFA, knots or any other skill you wanted to learn to be a Scouter, this is just another skill. Whether you WANT to learn it or not is up to you.

Answer: Because it is hard and not as fun as the other stuff...but for the kid in question it may very well be the difference between him continuing to be like that or finally changing. And yes, as long as you wear the uniform it *is* your duty to reach out whenever possible to help kids. Now, if they are breaking the law or abusing others then obviously professional help is called for.