Krampus

63% of US adults agree with Scouts for Equality. Why do we care what people think of scouting if they are not participating' date=' and they don't plan on participating one way or the other? I've been thinking about this a lot. I've come up with an answer. The Boy Scouts of America is an iconic institution in America. Scout has come to be synonymous with honesty and integrity. I will use film as one example. I love movies. When the bad guy wants to make fun of the good guy for being so inflexible in his morality, he ridicules him by calling him a boy scout. Scouting has come to belong to all Americans. What we do reflects on our entire country. And so when we do something that most Americans feel is "unAmerican," they are entitled to their unease. We have a duty to our country as an organization to represent them well.[/quote']

 

Just out of curiosity, who did the survey and how big was the sample?

 

Having worked in politics I have actually worked with pollsters. It is amazing how they could get an arab to say the existence of an independent Jewish state in the middle east is a good idea if you phrase the questions just right. ;-)

 

Given the political polarization in this country based on the last election, I find it very hard to believe that 63% of the country support such a polarizing topic. Now, if you said 63% liked vanilla ice cream I might buy it, but not on this issue.

Nope Basement' date=' Fred is correct. You can change positions in the SAME unit (Pack and Troop for the same CO are still 2 different units) without a new app, I was Den leader for 3 years then Cubmaster for 2, and never filled out a new form when I switched. Some councils may require a new app, but not all.[/quote']

 

My brother is in a council near national HQ. In fact he does his registration at the national HQ which doubles as the council HQ and scout shop. Even there, he says, you have to complete a new app for each role you hold. ASM to SM = new app. SM to TC = new app. SM + MBC = two apps. Etc.

 

This is at national. So my money is on that you need an app for each role change...as stupid as that sounds.

 

As far as the question originally asked, there is no way someone else can sign you up for something. That, in every council, is a big, fat no-no.

Krampus' date=' You're living a Scoutmaster's nightmare. You can't create enough guidelines to satisfy yourself and these parents. Get out while you can. The Cub Scouts have used an unofficial guideline for years: KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. For crying out loud, back off or back out. You're creating problems where there are none. You obviously are not having fun as a Scout leader, and it shows. Your Scouts see this as well. The level of trust parents have in the adult leaders to provide the Scout's support for their program, should be very high. This should include your ability to make a decision about a Scout's qualifications to be approved (as the Scoutmaster) as a candidate for an Order of the Arrow Election. Trustworthy. sst3rd[/quote']

 

You are welcome to come to my district any time and exercise your belief that keeping it simple works. Parents here will argue anything Tommy Crappycamper is involved in. If we don't sign off on a first year scout requirement they want to know why. They read the GTA probably more than folks here and can quote it chapter and verse. If you stray outside of that they are ready to contact the district or even council directly. And this is not just my unit but pervaisive throughout. RT is essentially where scouters go to figure out how to do our job they way we know it should be done. I have lost scouts because we have tightened how requirements are checked off and the TC has asked the scouter corps to justify this change.

 

This is a cultural thing in my neck of the woods. Just try to deny Tommy something he has qualified for and see how long your my way or the highway position holds up.

 

What you have totally wrong is not that *I* am a scoutmaster's nightmare...being in this district and having to work with this cultural mentality is the nightmare. Trust me, you know not of which you speak.

Ozark trail tents are complete garbage......The fiberglass poles on the ones we tried splintered in a couple of uses....The flys are not full length flys resulting in some pretty significant water issues......I am sure there are different models the 4 man we had was complete garbage.....

 

While REI has a 100% lifetime guarantee, I don't know that I could ask them to honor that warranty for troop owned tents........Just doesn't feel very scout like....

 

 

I would advise against the one man tent - while the on-the-ground-enforcer of rules is your Ranger, they reportedly vary in their enforcement.

Ours in 2010, one of the worst Bear incident years in quite a while, would NOT have allowed us to go on the trail with one person tents. His stated rationale was that the two man tents especially when set up in a group, look like something the Bear doesn't want to investigate. A one person tent looks like a snack size burrito.

All of that said I really like the TT Rainbow and would like to have one for myself now that the kid is moving on to other activities for now. But my son and I together and separately have always used an ALPS Mountaineering Extreme 3 at Philmont (because we have it, because we often keep all of our gear IN with us, because it has been our primary home away from home for about 6 years, because it is bombproof, and because he was willing to carry it - 8+ pounds)

Yeah, regiment style and keeping your smellables to zero is paramount!

So bottom line here is you want some sort of rule or measuring stick to justify to the parents that their little darling just ain't good enough to represent your troop in the OA.

 

Sorry pal, there isn't one.

 

The justification is in my View Tommy Crappycamper, while a member of the BSA and a first class rank scout meets two of the requirements....I, his SM, have spent countless hours camping, hiking and scouting with the young man and don't feel he is ready for the OA at this point.

 

If mom and dad complain then read to them from the OA membership page

 

[h=3]Purpose[/h]

As Scouting’s National Honor Society, our purpose is to:

• Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition.
  
• Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp.
  
• Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation.
  
• Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others.
  

 

Keep complaining about the quality of the BSA and then act powerless to do anything about it.......

 

 

The power is in our hands, but many SM's and Troop lack the backbone to use it......Scout spirit and SM recommendation.......I am guessing that the OA election and membership is an expectation in your troop???? So a boy gets his nights camping and rank he is a shu in?? It will never be that way in a troop I am SM of.

 

 

You don't want to make Mr and Mrs Crappycamper upset....that is your right......But you have now lost the right to complain about the poor quality of the youth.

I do like the idea of having our TC develop guidelines and adopting those.

Tam' date=' I agree. Just tying knots, for the sake of tying knots gets boring very quickly. It is much better to have a project to work on. Camp gadget requirement anyone ? Even simple pioneering projects can make great patrol building exercises and fun inter-patrol competition.[/quote']

 

Take them to the climbing tower. That will show them what knots for for REAL fast....and they will love it.

Kids today are not expected to actually grow up and be independent until they are well into their forties.

Fixed your post.

Your issue is not with tents per say' date=' just $200 tents.[/quote']

 

$40 Ozark Trail tents at Walmart that sleep 4-6 lasted three years longer than the $150 3-man tents we got at REI.

 

Well Krampus if your not going to improve the quality of scouting with local quality control then you simply don't have a right to complain about it.

 

 

I would hold him back because he is marginal in his abilities. Just a national honor society doesn't admit students with c averages, I don't think the OA should either.

 

 

It is a SM discretionary thing......you think he is marginal....Don't put him on the ballot.....If he is interested as to why, he can come ask you....It just might be the kick in the pants he needs to get going. Or he just might not be that interested in scouting.

 

Bottom line

Marginal skills

Marginal motivation

Marginal interest

Marginal Maturity

 

All add up to no go in my book...I withhold my recommendation as is my right to do so.....

 

If your worried about being a bad guy or the boy hating you for it????? So a friend asked for an honest opinion, do you lie to him....NO, but depending on your relationship you could give him the blunt truth or you could candy coat it.....But you are honest with him.

 

Why do we feel the need to send 12 and 13 year olds to the ordeal anyway????? I was 15 when I attended mine and a life scout......

 

 

 

So are you going to be part of the problem or a start of the solution???

Trust me, I get what you are saying about why and how you deny him his OA slot. My point is, what policy justification do we have for holding him back? Without a codified policy that defines what should be taken into consideration during the Scoutmaster recommendation phase then it is left to somewhat arbirary reasons.

Well, he can try to put your husband down as CM but as was pointed out your husband has to fill out a new membership form for the new position and turn it in to council for it to be legit.

Find a new pack. I know the saying is "for the boys" but you can let some of those other parents step up and help.

My post vote plans will be based on how it all falls out. If the vote is a no, it will depend on how it happens. Basically, if it all turns out that the BSA takes a turn for the right, and it becomes clear that people that are not social conservatives are not welcome, I will leave. I had a conversation with a scouter that basically went "once we get rid of the fags, next we get rid of the #%$# Hindus, Muslims and women!". If people like that win, the BSA is dead, and I'm gone. If on the other hand, people like me are still welcome (or at least tolerated), I'm going to continue to write letters, and advocate for change from within.

 

A no vote isn't an automatic "I'm leaving". But given some of the things I have heard from some scouters, if they get their way, I won't have to leave on my own. I will be "unacceptable" just for being Unitarian (or as one scouter put it: "#$ Unitarianism isn't a real religion, and they shouldn't be allowed!"). Way to live "A Scout if Reverent".

To be honest, if you have been part of Scouting for a while, it is still the same place you always liked. That discriminatory policy has always been in place, so leaving after losing a vote is a bit silly in my opinion. Now, if you were on the other side of the debate and saw the organization you knew parting with values they (and you) have held for a long time, then I could see leaving if the vote goes opposite your view point. But leaving after losing would be like me joining the NRA and then quitting after the assault weapons ban fails.

Krampus said: "I even asked an ASM to remove his "I Voted" sticker at a meeting last fall. Rather than invite argument or debate I thought it best remove it. He did...without question." I would say that's going a little too far. Obviously if it said "I voted for Smith" (or whoever)' date=' that should not be on the uniform. But if it's just "I Voted", and it's one of those temporary stickers that you wear once and throw away, and it's Election Day, I think it's a good example for the Scouts participating in one of the rights and obligations of citizenship. And that's one of the things we are supposed to be "teaching", in a non-partisan and non-political manner.[/quote']

 

Yep. And I noted that when I asked him to take it off that it was a neutral sticker but did not conform with the uniform policy. Were it a temp badge, sure. We don't allow the Scouts to wear stickers so the policy had to be evenly applied to the adults. He understood and even agreed.

There are two cotrolling policies on statements of political support or activism that apply to the uniform issue:

1) The rules governing when and where to wear the uniform are clear. Essentially, if it is not a Scouting activitiy then its a no-no. I think we are all smart enough to know where the grey areas are. Wearing it to a 5k for breast cancer because the Scouts are doing a flag ceremony? Yes. Wearing the uniform because your troop is setting up chairs for service hours? Yes. Doing those same funcations at a political rally? No. When in doubt ask your council.

2) As far as badges or patches like the rainbow knot, the Insignia Guide and BSA policy on approved licensees of BSA products are also pretty clear. If the temp patch is making a statement or supportive of a cause it cannot be worn. Period. That goes for gay rainbox ribbons, breast cancer ribbons, wound warrior patches, etc.

In my troop we follow a simply policy: If it did not come from the Scout Shop, Council, District or OA we simply do not wear it. The ONLY exception are homemade neckerchief slides (as long as they follow guidelines), temp patches we do as a troop (very seldom and done through classB) for special events and that's it.

I even asked an ASM to remove his "I Voted" sticker at a meeting last fall. Rather than invite argument or debate I thought it best remove it. He did...without question.

I get all your points. Would never consider getting wasted, just a break after a few days would be nice, but not necessary. The camp our troop picked this year has has the option of dinning hall and the boys jumped at it. I was not there for the decision process. The Standard American Diet (SAD) makes me ill, so I may need to pack some meat and veggies and do some cooking for myself. There are only so many hot dogs and beans I can eat. The beans, grains and sugar especially. We are bordering on to much leadership on the front and backend, with about 1:7 ratio midweek.

 

I suspect HA would so completely wipe me out I couldn't lift a bottle. Besides I have sleep apnea and lugging around a 50lb deep cycle battery on a backpacking trip would be unwise. SeaBase may be my only option.

I'd rather not, but assuming the ratios and depth were maintained ...

 

We've managed to retain some very helpful adults by being a little flexible.

 

This never happened, but ... Come back wasted? I'm sending you home as soon as you sober up. I'd rather hear from you and your buddies that you're checking into a hotel and won't be back until morning. If you keep your distance, I can take the heat from the res. director for your unplanned absence.

 

Why? It's personal. Thanks to the family beer business, I grew up with plenty of drunks, I don't need my youth to have any part of that.

 

Now, on HA's where numbers are tight and we're in close quarters, I expect my key adults to be on the clock 24/7. So, I usually invite my chaperons from the pool of leaders who never showed the the jitters for a "summer camp break."

the camp our troop traditionally attends does not have a fantastic first year program two years ago 28 to 1 ratio, the boys didn't learn a thing and lost a year of summer camp in my opinion......

 

This is the summer camp the past SM and many of the committee members attended as youth and they are resisting change.

 

There are many things about the camp I do not like....from the many troops racing around camp on gators and golf carts picking up and delivering boys to merit badges. they generate an amazing amount of dust, nothing better than have one of them dust you just while you are walking back from the shower house....To the dining hall situation.....then the racist comments over the last two summers from other campers and adults. The merit badge instruction wasn't all that great as well.

 

Time for a change.

 

The PLC is looking at different Summer camps for 2014....Frielander, Frontier and Ramsburg.....we will be visiting all three.

 

While the first year program might not be high on their list of things to look into.....I will recommend we go take a look at it.

Sadly, old fat Scouters tend to bring golf carts with them. I'd rather not see them either. Medical reasons? Sure. But at one camp in 2009 there must have been 15 carts brought by Scouters. That's a lot of medical waivers.

BD you have to understand not all of these programs are weak. Two out of the last three camps my unit has been to has had top notch first year programs. Low ratios with plenty of hands on, repetitive instruction. One even had a test at the end of the week. Scouts teaching scouts.

I agree validation is key before sign off.

Krampus.....I can't find the reply but you said your SM as a youth only put the best scouts up for election to the OA.......You didn't know why? You blame this day and age.... So what is so different now from back then???? Why do current leaders not hold their scouts to the same standards as back then???? I would never feel pressured to put a scout up for election if he didn't meet the standard........ As SM it is my right and I will do my part to improve the quality of Scouting.....

I would hold them to that age-old standard if I could back it up with something concrete.

Imagine this: Tommy is a Star scout and below average in his camping skills. He is in good standing. Attends 80% of the meetings. Has 20 days camping each year. Is not on probation nor is he a problem kid. He needs reminders to stop goofing off like most of the 11-4 year olds. Tommy does not meet the "elite" status we all remember from the OA of the past. He does meet all the requirements to be on the OA ballot. On what grounds would I hold Tommy back from the ballot?

This may not help since you have already had the vote. For my crews we had the Scouts decide up front what made a good crew leader, scribe, chaplain. The troop scribe took the notes and the boys agreed that leadership (by example), participation, planning, experience, training, etc., were all good things. These were put into role descriptions (on the board) by the scribe and then boys were nominated and seconded. Secret ballot and leaders were selected. We also had the boys do the same for advisors in terms of developing a list of what good traits for advisors were...mostly for our own edification.

Going back on a vote would be hard. You might get out there and find he's a great leader. Or, you may find the opposite. Happened on a trek years ago with me and the boys replaced him on the trail...realized he was not leading and not pulling his weight (literally).

Being active or a runner does not mean they can handle a 50+ mile hike. I have seen fit football players unable to carry 45 pounds after 25 miles. It is mental and physical together.

Not sure you can do anything other than advise the crew to have back-up leaders in case of injury or sickness. Then you are covered.

@mozartbrau - The BSA anti-gay policy is well known among scouters. The general public for the most part isn't aware of the policy. I've had parents approach me after a couple of years in scouting and were surprised that such a policy exists. I'm surprised too. It is 2013 afterall.

Yeah, but this is the same general public that does not read anything anyway. Most people are sheep and cannot be bothered to do their homework. They would read the TV Guide with more vigor than the major membership policies of an organization that will take care of their son hundreds of miles from home. Go figure. [i am rolling my eyes hard on that one]

I wish, but no.

We've been entrusted to watch over these kids. All too often there have been night time issues (bear in camp, sickness, asthma attack, home sickness, injury, weather issues) that have come up and it would have been catastrophic had we been short leaders.

Also, just two-deep does not cover it anymore. Now for more events in your tour plan you need no less than a 1:10 ratio or you are in violation of your coverage. If you are in a scenario where you are doing HA or something, you must make sure one of the adults present is trained in first aid, wilderness first aid, weather safety, safe swim, safety afloat, etc. So unless you have every adult cross-trained and still have your minimum ratio then you would be in volation of your permit. I think you then lose your insruance coverage.

Plus, most reservations do not allow you to come and go without checking in/out and you cannot be on reservation at all under the influence. Big no-no.

So the lad I removed from the election.

 

He is disruptive, does not respect youth leadership, I have video taped his antics when I stepped out of the room to confirm a suspicion. He is larger than every scout in the troop and is a bully, I have caught him using his size to intimidate his patrol mates. I have caught him stealing and lying on a couple of camp outs. He has hid when we were carrying patrol boxes to the truck....He is first to grab his gear and disappear with mom when we get back to CO.....

 

He is the scout that I would not wish on another scout leader and if we go to a council event I end up babysitting him when he goes because I simply don't trust him....

 

I have had SMC with him after meetings about all of the sex talk and talking about women in a degrading manner.... His response was sorry mr. b I forgot where I was at.

 

So how can I send him to an ordeal where he is required to work under guidance of his peers????

 

I can't do it.

 

 

To me this isn't arbitary......Other than a uniform this young man isn't a scout.....He repeats the words of the scout law and oath fails to live it.....

 

My issue is with scouts that may be weak scouts. The show up, participate, get mbs, earn their ranks but have weak core camping skills. If they have been signed off on these skils, even though they are weak, and they have the camping days, there seems to be no reason a scoutmater can hold them back from OA. In my day they would not have been elected, let alone on the ballot. Cannot say why my scoutmaster only put forward the strongest scouts, but he did. Today if someone qualities, short of them being inactive or not in good standing (behaviour) then I still don't see how a scoutmaster can keep them off the ballot.

Respect in its many forms. From respect for authority, elders, each other, one's selt (obesity being in that grouping), etc. The common respect you used to see is gone; simply not there. Some call it old fashioned but looking someone in the eye, using their name, using Mr. or Mrs., shaking hands, etc. Just don't see that anymore....or rarely if ever.

It always amazes me how everyone seems to think that the modern tent is the only way to go. The sewn in floors hold water in just as well as out and one always has to be concerned about wrecking it, no boots, no packs, no rocks and sticks underneath, etc. etc. etc.

 

Just think. I have a floorless canvas tent. It is tall enough to stand in, hang my clothes, take a military cot, folding chair and Rubbermaid to haul it all and second as a night stand.

 

I walk in and out without taking my shoes off. I can camp on rocks and sticks without a problem.

 

I can have my backpack in the tent, hanging on a hook or tossed on the floor.

 

When it rains and the water runs it, it just keeps on going out just as fast. When boys are out running around tucking their ground cloths under their tent. I'm tossing mine over the top of my tent. That way I don't have so much tent to dry out and if I do touch the walls, so what.

 

Bugs? That's what netting is all about.

 

It doesn't have a zipper that will get wrecked.

 

Just because it's modern, doesn't mean it's better.

 

My weekender tent? GI's carried them around in WWII and Korea and weight wasn't a problem.

 

Backpack tent? GI poncho. 3 corners staked down, the other one propped up with a stick. Works just fine.

 

I haven't wrecked the floor of a tent ever....

Never wrecked a zipper either....

 

Stosh

To be honest I could go either way. I don't see a big deal about either.