Krampus

Yah, well, in that case I reckon it's an injustice to take a course of action that leads for worse outcomes for everybody, eh?    It's certainly a sadness, eh? 

 

I don't think we can justify actual harm by arguin' that the rules made us do it or by pretendin' Justice is on our side.

 

JMHO.

It is not a worse outcome if the Scout gets his Eagle.

It is not a worse outcome if the troop leaders get in trouble for making up rules and have to change their way of doing things so that it complies with the BSA rules.

It WOULD BE a worse outcome if 1) this kid did not make Eagle, and 2) these adults were allowed to get away with what they are doing.

That's the crux of this case.

Well, for two of our APLs they are pretty much doing all the work... the other two, well, I had to ask my son who they are.  Additionally, your criticism could similarly be applied to the ASPL.

Sure. I can be applied any time you have "assistants" stepping up to take over for absent primaries. But that is a totally different issue then giving APLs credit for a POR. I would argue if I have an APL being PL most of the time, then the PL is not getting POR credit and the APL will get de facto PL credit for fulfilling the role.

Actually I almost forgot this one:

 

At a recent meeting, the scoutmaster was talking to the troop about some upcoming events.  Then the SM invited up one of the ASMs to talk about another upcoming activity.  When that ASM was done talking, he looked over to where the SM usually sits, but the SM had stepped into the other room.   The ASM then had this sorta of panicked look on his face, and he was like "well I don't know what is next on the program, but the SM will be back soon hopefully".   The whole time the SPL is sitting in front of the meeting...

I feel for you. That's not good.

We had a similar situation but reversed. The adults were invited for what the boys call "adult announcements" to come up and talk. When we were done we tossed it over to the SPL, who had forgotten the meeting plan...had not back up. The kid took his punishment well. He admitted he screwed up and didn't have the materials for the meeting. The PLs took a 10 min break to go get some stuff from the garage to have an impromptu meeting. Wasn't perfect but they took accountability.

I say this because things can change. Years ago we used to be your troop. Over a 2-3 year period we were able to change. Wasn't easy, but it worked. It all starts with an SM who wants to let the boys lead AND other adults will to step aside and play a supporting role.

@@Grubdad, sounds like you need to get together with any parents who feel this way and have a chat with the SM. He may not be aware of the situation, my be aware but have political issues he's dealing with or, I hope is not the case, is aware but doesn't think it is a big deal. In any case, he needs to know how you feel and your observations.

I am hoping for your sake he's just a good guy who has missed this. That's a fixable situation. If it is more political than that you might have your work cut out for you.

@@Beavah, you saying it wouldn't be an injustice for a scout to be denied his Eagle because of a few adults adding requirements?

I think you need to expand your definition.

Let's be clear: This is NOT adults asking a guy to camp more. You are WAY oversimplifying things.

APLs are like vice presidents...you never know they are there until you look on a roster.

Let's write a Scouter fiction book. We've got some cool names brewing here.

[snaps fingers Bob Fosse style]

Krampus,

 

Sorry it ain't working for you. I'm sure our lodge and chapters aren't perfect, but in my opinion we're delivering a good program.

 

sst3rd

Like what? What do you do that the units don't?

@@Eagle94-A1 come to Texas. We get up at 6:30, coffee is on, we have one ASM who gets up early to make breakfast. The boys get up at 7 and are done by 8:30. If they screw up KP they're cleaning dishes before dinner.

We're still strict on some things but we let the boys learn.

The Order is a commitment in addition to a scout's responsibilities towards their troop/patrol.

Commitment to what? In my area they wear sashes, they clear brush a few weekends a year, they have boring meetings with PowerPoint. That's about it.

Not sure what we think these guys are joining. It's not the OA of yesteryear. It's a vote, a sash and a flap. Haven't seen much more than that.

We used Venture Patrols. Worked better and did not decapitate the youth leadership.

We thought the Georgia sections especially Blood Mountain were a bit harder than NC/TN/VA. It seems they had never heard of switchbacks...

You don't want to hike up The Priest.

https://virginiatrailguide.com/2009/06/17/the-priest/

Scouts should be about exploring and trying new things, even if you fail miserably. If BSA thinks they can do it the unit should let him.

I did my first 250 miles on the AT at 13. I did 100 miles on the C&O canal at 12.

You'd be surprised what young kids can do it given a chance.

 

Krampus asked, "Does the retailer offer protection of the transaction?" 

 

yes.  But treasurers from troops should do their own research.

 

That's odd that a third party offers protection. I suspect it is very limited protection.

Usually if a purchaser users a third party, with links to the purchasers bank account, and the purchaser gets hacked, the only liability the third party will refund is the amount of the transaction and NOT the money siphoned out of the bank account from the breech of the third parties transaction data.

I would advise against using a third party transaction aggregator like that. Even PayPal has limitations on how much you can get back if their transaction or data stores are hacked to reveal you bank account data.

Sounds like we agree that the picture of an Eagle as leader does not have to be the Norman Rockwell painting that so many parents may have in their mind.

makes sense Krampus

but from the perspective of most folks

the cost to do the transaction over the web site using paypal is a known and "in your face" number

meanwhile

the cost for sending in a written check is zero.... so why would they pay for paypal?

 

Agreed. Other people are NOT going to consider your time and effort. But you do, so you say "I'm collecting today, no other day. Miss today you have to drop it by my house. I am going to the bank only on Saturday. Miss that and you cannot go." 

Your time spent = one meeting, one trip to the bank.

If people are not going to value your time, maybe they will value their own time...especially when having to drive out of their way because they missed your office hours at the meeting.

I work for a small non profit.  Our credit card processor takes bank account information also.  The donations from checking or savings have MINIMAL banking fees (25 cents per transaction).  Whereas cc is 2.75 - 3.25 % depending.

They provide a secure (they host) processing page where supporters can enter their own (or we do it for them) information.  Our website links to that site.  Once those payment types are setup for a supporter, they are available in the future for additional charges.  The main thing about that webpage is that we can setup the codes for the different funds and events and get terrific reports.  Deposits are made quickly and directly into our checking account, which minimizes administration greatly.  I imagine that there are many processing companies out there that provide the same services so it will be worth your while to investigate what is available.

Does the retailer offer protection of the transaction? In other words, if someone hacks by bank directly (checking or savings) I am covered under their federal insurance. If a third party processor, to which I have my accounts linked, gets hacked and my money transferred I am not covered by federal banking insurance.

Does the third party processor guarantee their security and that of your funds?

activities qualifications policy 

What is that? Is that in addition to the age matrix?

I tend to think that in all advancement it is imperative that a boy demonstrate completion of all requirements, no more and no less. Most often, even in this thread, comments are about the boy demonstrating he follows the oath and law. O agree, and this IS one of the requirements; show scout spirit. Far too often this requirement just gets signed off as a rubber stamp. If this requirement actually meant something in reality, then I don't think this thread would be necessary.

It DOES mean something. The issue is how to quantify it in a standard fashion. If a Scout is demonstrates 11 of 12 laws all the time but misses one frequently, does he get signed off?

I think there's a spectrum here:

• Rubber Stampers: Probably a small percentage that simply sign anything to move the Scout along.
• The Reviewers: Those folks who take the time to discuss on each requirement impacted the Scout, what they learned and how they grew from it. I suspect that is most of the people here. Hopefully most of the Scouters in general.
• The Nitpickers: These are the barrier-builders, those folks who don't read or go based on what they *think* is right. I suspect those are a small percentage too.

I think maybe all of this is because our troop is pretty small and top heavy (I mean lots of older boys and then a few new kids but not really any in the middle). I didn't know the troop did mostly high adventure stuff when we signed up. I guess he (and I) will just have to be patient. 

Well, maybe. Are there other troops in your area that have more activities geared toward younger Scouts?

To be honest, unless the activities being done are not allowed under the BSA Age Appropriate Guidelines I see no reason NOT to allow your son to go. He's a member of the unit. He's paid his money. If the events are on the matrix and within his age range, then he should get the chance to attend.

It is up to the adults and other Scouts to make sure he's trained and ready to go. That's what Scouting is. He should NOT have to wait. He's missing out IMHO.

For example: We had a Philmont training trip planned. A younger Scout wanted to go. We spoke to him about gear prep, etc. He had all the gear. The pack swallowed him, but he could carry it. He went, had a blast and was only a minor hindrance. The older Scouts liked the fact he was trying. He became a de facto "mascot" of the older guys.

Buy him one of these.

@s'morestashe there are a lot of questions left open but I will answer you how I know most troops in my area work.

Most join in Jan-Mar. Within the first 2-3 months they earn Scout. It used to be faster because the requirements for Scout were so similar to Arrow of Light we could usually get them Scout in the first month.

Tenderfoot would take until summer camp (usually in July). We have a first year scout program that meets on one Sunday a month which goes over TF requirements in detail. We also cover requirements at camp outs; sometimes at troop meetings as part of a game or activity.

Second and First Class requirements are earned during the 12-18 months. Most of the SC requirements are covered at summer camp. About 1/3 of the FC requirements are covered at summer camp.

The boys who attend troop meetings, camp outs, summer camp and the first year scout meetings usually make First Class within 12-14 months. Boys who miss camp outs tend to fall behind because the cooking requirements are handled on those camp outs, so if you miss them you lose out. 

I'm curious about your comment about the activities not being age appropriate. Troops SHOULD BE putting together a program that has something to offer for ALL Scouts. For example, we recently had a float trip. The younger Scouts were allowed to go on the trip but a shorter trek; the older guys went on a longer trek. They all trained the same (swim test, float safety practice, canoe practice).

My wife was in finance for 25 years. She broke it down for me like this:

• Payment is a process, whether electronic or paper.
  • There is a fee for electronic transactions, sometimes on both ends (sender and receiver). Check your bank and processor.
  • There are hidden costs (e.g., one's time, gas) to process paper transactions.
• The key to reducing the cost of paper transactions is not to reduce the amount of paper (e.g., checks), it is to reduce the trips to the bank.
  • You can deposit 20+ checks per transaction now. They are itemized and do not require a deposit slip. They do require review to make sure that they were processed correctly.
  • Reporting and money management has online tools which make all this easier.
• Online transactions may reduce the number of trips to the bank, BUT ONLY if you don't limit your trips to begin with.
• The key is to figure out how much the electronic transactions cost you versus how much the paper transactions cost you (including time spent). Once you know this you will know if it makes sense to accept electronic payments.

Hand him this and tell him to enjoy his reading.