Krampus

Better question: Why are you awarding stuff to kids who didn't even ATTEMPT to do a certain requirement? It does not matter their age. When you lower your expectations of kids they will perform to the lowered expectations. It can all still be fun....and properly earned.

If the people leaving are doing what you are doing, then I can live with lower numbers. I'd rather have kids that don't feel a sense of entitlement and do the work, than have a bunch of kids who got something they didn't earn.

I can say I've done that in bear territory when my over-night bottle was already full. There are some times when that is necessary.

Well, you would think they would have required that it be done last, but remember, this is BSA. They never fully and completely say what they are really thinking. I suspect by putting the 20-miler after the tiered hiking that was their intent. I guess they don't have enough experience with youth to know that they NEVER do things in order.

Personally I'd limit that unless you are in an urban setting. I live in the 'burbs with plenty of walking trails, but I encourage they guys to get out -- even if with mom and dad -- and really hit a dirt trail. We are lucky to have both pavement and several woodland trails in our area that would allow 10 miles to get knocked out no problem. But I guess you have to manage with what you have in your region. We try to have at least 3 of the 5 hikes be on honest to goodness trails in state parks or private land. The 20 miler is usually a through hike alone a lake to the north.

Yes, when you are trying to teach honesty and hard work, you're darn right you kids know what they've done and what they have not. Especially when you take the time to sit down with them and review it. Of course, as Akela you have a requirements to ALSO "Do Your Best" and be honor-bound to at least try. To award something without trying is called stealing. It is dishonest. So even if you haven't bothered to sit down with your Scout and review such concepts, you as an adult should hold yourself to them. But again, by all means, let's give him something he did not earn. We will see how t

What lesson does it teach them when you reward them for something they didn't do...AND THEY KNOW THEY DIDN'T DO IT? How about discussing with them why they did not get the rank because they did not do the work ("We still have work to do but we will get it done.") and then discuss the virtue of patience (wait until we actually do the work) and the reward that comes with having TRIED instead of being given something they DIDN'T try. Again, Do Your Best means you actually have to TRY the requirement, not skip over it and SAY you tried. If you are such a proponent of doing one's best, you

Then why even have requirements? Seriously? Do Your Best means to give your best in completing the requirement. It does NOT mean you get the requirement counted as complete if you don't even TRY it. You cannot Do Your Best if you don't even ATTEMPT the requirements. But hey, trophies for everyone!!!

Isn't this the same as forming a "Friends of" organization? I would think there's a problem forming your unit in to a non-profit being already an entity of your CO. I would think there's issues there. It would be like the youth ministry forming their own non-profit but being under the charter of the church. There are enough lawyers here (@@CalicoPenn?) to weigh in on this subject.

They did it specifically to teach progression training for the 20-miler, that's all. I've seen far too many guys drop this MB because they could barely do the ten miles, let alone the 20 miles. Despite my advice, guys would plan the 20 miler to "get it out of the way" rather than do the 10 milers first. This new set of requirements now shows them the wisdom of interval training for the 20 miler.

Therein lies the problem, I'm afraid. When I've seen stuff like this before the unit never does anything about the Scout because, well, they don't want to lose his dad. Unless the SM is serious about addressing such issues this will only continue until the Scout finally leaves Scouting. I hate to say it, but it does sound like these adult leaders really don't consider this behavior as un-Scoutlike. My troop welcomes on average 5-7 Scouts as year as transfers; mostly because their former units tolerate similar crass behavior. You may need to find another unit if this does not improve fo

But "Do Your Best" means to do your best while COMPLETING the requirements. It does not mean simply attempt to complete them all, but hey, if you don't award the rank anyway. That's the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.

Your official explanation is here. I suspect that, since most units only use Bugler for morning/evening calls, that's why. I doubt many troops really ever use the POR for anything beyond that, so the POR for Eagle is seen as something more substantial required; though I wonder why Librarian counts if Bugler does not.

When I was at More Rain State Park in '77 we were so boy led that we build a rain gutter regatta in our camp site. Invited anyone to enter a "boat" for a fee. The money was put in to a general fund run by some kid from Queens. I got the feeling he had experience with off-track, illegal betting before. He kept the money, gave odds and handled pay outs. This ran from Day 2 through the last day of rain on Day 5. The proceeds went to our patrol's ice cream fest on the MB Mudway on the last day. 100% boy led.

Don't go with council...ever. Try other units. They usually have a spot or two...especially if you are wilderness first aid trained.

@@Grubdad, I hate to be Nancy Naysayer, but it sounds like the leaders are simply going to give these kids yet another chance. Peeing in the middle of someone else's camp site and then doing something as dangerous as laying down in a roadway is a deal break as far as I'm concerned. If that is not grounds for immediate probation or suspension, I don't know what it. I hope your leadership gets their act together and can stop this stuff. Let us know what happens. Lastly, please don't think of the troop as "their troop". You are a dues paying member so you and your family are PART of t

Exactly. Let them learn early that better preparation will yield better performance. @@heat4212, how much is left to do? Is there any reason you can't take the rest of May-August to get this all done and THEN give them their ranks?

$850 for the "honor" of taking 5 days off of work and travelling to do volunteer work for an organization that makes a profit off of an event like this? No thanks. When you total up what you pay BSA plus your PTO and travel, frankly I'd rather invest the money in a better trip like to Philmont, Seabase or NT. Better yet, head to Alaska and do a high adventure camp there. Far more bang for the buck. $1200 is what you spend. Many other councils the cost is twice that...for one Scout!! I can send my kid to Philmont once and NT once for that same cost. I can send him to Kandersteg for the summ

I've been. Twice. You're better off giving your scout a personal trip elsewhere. For the money spent (if around what I quoted) the value gained is less than what he'd gain elsewhere. It's worth the trip, just not that much.

If you are in the right council it may be a "bargain". $2,300 to sleep in a tent and eat lousy food for one week is not a bargain in my book.

Interesting. Apparently in my neck of the woods it is considered heresy. We don't care, we keep doing it and the packs like it, as does our unit. If there's no rule against it we will keep doing it.

Odd...because the many job descriptions I see that define what the DE's role is says otherwise. If you have evidence that supports your assumption it would be good to post it. The several dozen I have found while looking online show that there are several main objectives of a DE, not the least of which is volunteer relations with unit leaders and CORs...which would seem to cover this situation perfectly.

And yet it is mentioned in the uniform and insignia guide.

I don't know that he can't. We just put together our own ceremonial unit for tap outs because the guys wanted to do it. They were tired of going to camporee (saw it as a waste of time for a long time) and simply wanted to offer this service. They also do crossovers. As far as I know you only need to be elected to attend ordeal. Tap out is not required...at least where I live.

Yeah I saw that. Read this too. Checked the Guide to Awards and Insignia and got nothing. Checked the Scouting Magazine archive, also nothing. So I just sent a note to the Ask the Expert page on Scouting Magazine. Figured I would share what I get, but so far I don't see any written guidelines baring you from wearing more than one patch on your red jacket.