boleta

After achieving Eagle, Palms require that a Scout show leadership. It no longer requires a leadership position in the Troop. Leadership at school certainly counts for this and can be considered a way of having an award for academic achievement.

Gee, that is hilarious. I couldn't stop laughing.

You know... real polls have been done showing that average Americans when askeed about the Bill of Rights, disagree with about 60% of it!!!

Think about it.

And God help you if you ever become disabled, can't afford your health insurance, need to go on Medicare, have a parent with Alzheimer's and then needs long term living assistance, etc. etc. etc.

I have a better idea. Let's just give Corporate America all the power and get rid of all of these cumbersome rules that inhibit productivity. (Review your American history- we tried that in the 1880's, they weren't called robber barons for nothing). The rich and powerful who make all the rules anyway can take all of the wealth of this country and keep it for themselves. (They already do for the most part). The rest of us can just slug it out for the crumbs that are left.(This message has been edited by boleta)

Hey!!!

I didn't label anyone or criticise them. I didn't disagree with anyone or contradict them. I have enjoyed the discussion about labels.

When the label becomes derogatory in nature and is used for political purposes, then one is insulted by it and tends to want to avoid it. That is just human nature. You can still call me liberal and I can defend it.

I REALLY like the idea of setting up a formal debate for the Troop. What a great idea. It would teach them how to organize their thoughts about this issue and help to discuss it in a civil and controlled fashion. Isn't there a Merit Badge that would cover this?

(This message has been edited by boleta)

Read Applebome's book "Scout's Honor" for a great outsider's look into BSA and the historical perspective on this and other problems we have.

Split the Scoutreach numbers out of the standard program as there is great opportunity for deceptive numbers in this program.

Please refer to Trevorum's post with regard to this discussion.

Believe it or not- many of the perfectly acceptable faiths that do duty to God and obey the Scout Law to be Reverent, do not believe Jesus Christ is the personal Savior!!! It might be nice if one puts the shoe on the other foot. Imagine having to say "Allah" instead of "God" in our Oath. By the way, Allah means God in Arabic.

When the invocation ends with the words "in your name we pray" and refers to J.C., I know this will surprise many of you.... it may not be what the entire audience is feeling. It may even be offensive to those non-believers of Christianity that are perfectly good Scouts and Scouters. This discussion keeps missing the main point of the Atheists- why should their perfectly good morality be excluded from BSA?

Until the rules change, that's just the way it is (see my previous post). You know, almost any Spiritual belief IS acceptable to BSA, i.e. many Native American religions. This is deemed important to those who run the organization (and its founder).

ps I agree completely that governmental organizations should NOT be involved in our Charter process.

The Boy Scouts of America (unlike many other country's Scout programs) requires Duty to God and Reverence which are part of its basic principles. This is not arguable. It will not change anytime soon. Duty to God and Reverence are defined so loosely that almost ANY personal belief other than atheism is acceptable.

Many youths are raised in a religion and participate actively in it. Many teenagers question their beliefs and may consider atheism. If you choose atheism, then you CANNOT raise your hand and aver an Oath which promises duty to God without being a liar and/or hypocrite. Either commit the lie and be involved in Scouting as an atheist, or do not belong. There is no other choice at this time.

Personally, I do not understand atheism. I can see agnosticism which basically says, "how can one know with certainty the answers to these questions." (Yes, faithful, I understand you KNOW because it is the TRUTH.) But, Atheism says with CERTAINTY that THERE IS NO GOD. I just don't get that.

Maybe the atheists are too moral. They want to be in BSA but won't keep quiet about their beliefs which gets them thrown out. Isn't that ironic?

Responsible- for word and deed.

Don't argue with a fanatic of any stripe.

I suggest you recruit a good Vice-Chair for your District. Get them to take over some of your duties and train them for your position. That will help take some of the load off of your shoulders and help your District to prepare for the time that you will be moving up to Council President!

It is extremely important to try and make this into a positive learning experience for this Scout. As OGE say, it wasn't for naught if the lad now understands the requirements and executes the project properly. That means getting the signatures of the Scoutmaster, Committee Chairman of the Unit, the entity that will benefit AND the District Advancement Chairman. A true EAGLE will persevere and complete the task.

I am in complete agreement with Eamonn. It is explicitly stated that the Leadership Project Work Book MUST be followed for the Eagle Project. The point of the project is no longer (as when I was a boy) to accomplish something for the community. The point is leadership. Following the Work Book- as REQUIRED, is part of understanding this.

The Scout would have to start over in my District and do it right.

First, the parents can be counselors. It is odd when mommy has done Citizenship in the Community, Family Life, etc. and daddy has done Personal Fitness... you get the idea. Having only 2 Merit Badges with each counselor makes the Scout interact with a variety of different adults which is part of the idea here. I was the counselor for my son on Snow Sports and Pioneering. My wife did Gardening and Scholarship with him. That was all he could do with us because of the 2 MB rule. (out of 41 MBs that he earned).

Our Council uses Blue Cards and the boys bring them to their BORs. We can see where the badges were earned and with which counselors. I had a lad once with 21 MBs for Eagle. 2 of the Blue Cards were for the same MB! He had a time explaining what and where the 21st Card was for. Fortunately, his Advancement Chair was on the BoR and helped him out.

I

In our Council, the boys can only use a MBC for 2 Merit Badges. They have to shop around for variety. A MBC, however, can sign up for as many badges as he is qualified to counsel. Eagle Boards do not like it when the candidate has all of his badges from one or two counselors.

In my troop, the patch was removed and a notch cut into it. I am sorry to say, in 1965, my patch got notched for chopping a piece of wood with my foot on the log to brace it. I never did that again!

About 2 months ago, I went into my own little snit when some negative posts were written about my comments. I stopped posting and told several others I would do so. I continued to read the Forum and was humored by the personal umbrage taken by people who were attacked by several authors. Just as I did. Since then, I have posted about 5 times, only when I feel I have something very specific to contribute. I completely disregard the personal commentary and do not respond to those who typically do this. I continue to consider them idiots, but choose not to comment or say so. Sometimes we just need a break.

I feel much better, thank you.

The title of this thread is Lessons Learned. Hopefully the loyal opposition (now the Dems) will learn something from the past two campaigns. I have just finished reading "What's the matter with Kansas." Although difficult, it explained a lot.

Hunt makes the point on 11/17 that the social issues (which won the election for Bush) will largely be ignored. What else will they run on if these issues are resolved in their favor? Even with 55 Republican Senators, 240 House and the White House, there will be little social change. The social and moral conflicts between red and blue ideology must be maintained for the working class in the red states to continue to vote Republican, even though these issues will not be resolved.

Gsmom, you continue to make my point with the Factcheck references. Kerry's compaign was not competently administered. There were clear answers to the attacks, yet the general public never "heard" them. Every Kerry supporter on a talk show could have gone "on message" with a clear concise rebuttal to the 87 billion attack which was effective in destroying credibility. Even OGE fell for it. Although the bill passed, the troops are still not being protected to the level THEY feel they need as has been shown in the recent Rumsfeld news.

The incompetence of the Bush administration should have been the theme from March to November. Starting with Bush on the ranch for the entire month of August, 2001 to the fiasco of Iraq, this theme was there and not hammered home.

The financial crisis that is coming will be unprecedented. We cannot sustain 400 billion dollar yearly shortfalls. The Debt limit was just raised to 8 trillion. It was 6 trillion when Bush started a mere 4 years ago. That's a 350 billion dollar mortgage payment every year. We have a 50 billion dollar MONTHLY trade deficit, mostly to China wich has tied their currency to ours. When they float their currency, ours will sink. What do you think the Chinese are doing with that money?

And the response? You are in danger. We must spend more on the Homeland. But we must not raise taxes on a wealthy person because it's their money. Such sacrifice at a time of war. The Republicans have always hated Social Security, Medicare and social welfare. The goal has always been to get rid of these programs. As the Federal Government bloats (it has not shrunk under any recent Republican administration), there will be no funds available to maintain these programs. The rich will get richer and be safe, the poor will not.

And Kansas continues to go red.

(This message has been edited by boleta)

I have heard nothing but good things about the family programs available at Philmont.

nldscout

This has been reviewed in the Forum before. Try reviewing this thread. There are many others. LDS has changed its policy. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=65509#id_65798s

I do not understand the resistance of the Scouters on this Forum to the separation of church and state advocated by Merlyn and ACLUers. Keeping the government out of our Private organization can only be a good thing. We in BSA have no trouble finding Charter Organizations. We do not need a governmental agency- school or military to be our Charters This does not prevent us from using their facilities which we do all of the time.

It is not unusual for the DAC to approve all Eagle projects. If the DAC is then on the Eagle BOR, he can tell if the project was done the way it was supposed to be. At the end of the project, the only signatures required are those of the representative of the organization that benefitted and the SM or Advisor, Coach. What was proposed to the DAC, may not be what was done.

There is NO excuse for a delay of months to have the review by the DAC. A phone call to the District Committee Chairman may be all that it takes. You should go to the next District Committee meeting and discuss this with the Advancement Committee and Committee Chairman if that doesn't work. If the Advancement Committee cannot review these projects in a timely manner, then they need more members to assist in the job.

As a District Committee Chairman, I would respond quickly to such a call and make sure the problem was fixed fast. Fortunately, our DAC reviews projects within a week or two of when they come up.

A SM friend of mine clearly told an older boy what was expected- obey the Scout Oath and Law or find another troop. The Scout was told that he would not pass muster in this Troop and that he should find another. The SM had no problem that with 5 months to go before 18 the Scout would not be able to complete the 6 month POR requirement. The message given to the rest of the Troop is also an important part of this lesson. Bullying and hazing will not be tolerated in any form.

gsmom,

You do not fault Kerry for losing the campaign and in the next sentence criticize Bush for being unscrupulous. Please! This is for the leadership of the United States. It is not softball or for the faint of heart. Kerry allowed the attacks to go without response and did not define his opponent the way the opponent defined him. Kerry basically ran the same campaign that Gore ran and knew in advance that the ringleader would be Carl Rove. There is just no excuse for a failure to define Bush with all of the ammo that Kerry had.

I strongly supported Kerry because I strongly felt that Bush is taking the country down the wrong path. 60% of the American public say we are going in the wrong direction.

If Kerry had won Ohio, he would have faced a Republican Senate and House. He would have had 272 Electoral Votes to Bush's 266 and 3 million fewer votes than Bush. Our country would be far worse off with the unclear support Kerry would have had in spite of winning the election according to our laws and Constitution.

Kerry ran a nearly incompetent campaign. When attacked in modern politics you must respond and attack back. He did not. He chose a trial lawyer for Vice-President who lost the support of the entire medical community that I belong to. There were numerous issues that Kerry could have attacked Bush with but he did not. Kerry ONLY gave a clear response to the issues in the first debate. Even at the end of the election, I found it painful to listen to interviews with him where he could not give a concise answer to the questions asked. He did not deserve to win, even though he might have had a better plan. And I was one of his SUPPORTERS!!!

The election is over and we now have 4 years to see what Bush will do.

The President now has the opportunity to represent all of us, including the 55 million voters who do not support him. I doubt that he will do this as it is not the style of the neo-cons who tell him what to do and say.

And if any of you think that the morals issues of this campaing will affect you on a daily basis, you are wrong. That may be what won this election for Bush, but that is not what we will be discussing 4 years from now.

Proud Eagle,

Don't sell yourself short. You are doing an unbelievably good job at filling in for the SM so far. You are emphasizing all of the right things- boy led troop, active parent involvement, adult training, and an attempt to find the right replacement for the SM.

You are also learning that the job is easier when more people are involved. Many hands make the work light. Be clear that you will not be able to continue in this role past the next summer, but that you are here, now, to help transition the troop to its next stage.

It is too bad that you won't be able to continue in your extended ASM role. But it sounds like you should be able to be an ASM in the future.

Good luck and Scout On!