yaworski

Sorry big fellah but unless you are posting as Bob White on another board, I'm not talking about you.

Bob White's running around telling folks that I got kicked out of here. I wasn't, I just left.

Well it looks like I irritate "Bob White" too much so he had his alter ego attack me. I don't need this aggrevation so I'll simply don my campaign hat with its illegal hat badge and head out the door.

It's been real.

" they want the scout to be in a tan shirt before he ends his time in Webelos. Because 1)most 10-year olds don't want to wear the same uniform as a second grader. 2)It helps to encourage Webelos to crossover to Boy Scouts."

Why should they "want" anything? They should let the boys do what they want, if it is an option.

As for the others, I'll use my troop as an example. We are fed by two packs. Pack A stayed with the blue shirts, Pack B went with tan. Of the 20 boys that crossed over (8 from A, 12 from B), 9 of the B boys dropped in September but only one of A's boys did.

I look at the shirt as one of those "been there, done that" things that others have mentioned. What is special about crossing over when you've already been wearing a uniform that differs little from the Boy Scout uniform?

"Up until about a year ago, Tigers were not officially part of the Cub Scout Pack. Tigers was a stand alone program"

Not quite right. Tiger Cubs started out as a stand alone program. Then, more than few years ago they became part of the pack and attended pack meetings. Finally, last year the big change occurred and TigerCub became a rank which has caused tons of problems.

"I was told at the Scout shot that Webelos could wear the blue or tan shirt. Is this not true? I bought my son's shirt big enough that it would last at least 2 years, changing to the tan shirt in his 2nd year as a Webelos"

It is true that a Webelos has the option of wearing either the blue shirt or the tan shirt. The boys in my son's den decided to stick with blue. As my son said, "I'm not a Boy Scout yet."

I did wind up buying my son a new Blue Shirt for his last year in Cubs (Webelos to the rest of you). He simply got too tall for his old shirt. Many parents were astonished that I'd spend $25 for a new shirt but these same people willingly spend $20 or $30 for a new movie or game cartridge for their kids.

I do find the ridiculously large shirts that many parents buy somewhat amusing. My son is about 5' tall and wears a youth medium. One boy in our troop is significanly smaller than my son and his mom bought him a MEN's MEDIUM shirt. For a point of reference, I'm 6'2" tall and I wore a men's medium until I hit about 190 lbs. This poor kid is swimming in his shirt. Oh yeah, the mom in question doesn't bat an eye at new game cartridges or DVDs.

After observing my troop that has "single age" patrols I can say that in our case it doesn't work. I also don't think that the "new scout patrol" idea works well either.

In the case of the New Scout patrol, you have a bunch of 11 year old boys that really don't have the skills to camp or lead. Sure, there's supposed to be a troop guide but 11 year olds are still 11 and most don't have a clue about how to organize anything.

With the other patrols, they act more like Cub Scout dens than anything else. The parents are insistent that they advance together and there is no mentoring from the older boys because they are involved in their own patrols.

I have the feeling that the New Scout patrol idea came about with the push for 1st Class in one year. Let's keep the boys together and railroad them through the program. "Okay guys, today we're doing requirements 4,5, and 6!" Instead of advancement being the natural outcome of the program, with the boys fulfilling requirements as they do scouting activities, advancement is being driven by the leaders who create events to complete requirements.

" Also the belt loops - sports most can not be done during winter months and the acedimic ones are over most of the tigers ability. "

My old pack had a long standing policy that you couldn't earn any belt loops until you earned Bobcat. This kept the parents focused on the Tiger program and not on loops.

Loops and Pins are not the focus of the program, they are simply rewards for thing that boys do outside of scouting.

"I may have missed something. Where in the patrol method of scouting does it say that a PL cannot be re-elected?"

"Bob", it may not say that but I think that's the way that many troops run things. "Jimmy's has his experience, now it is someone elese's turn." I'd guess that most of these troop also have parents running things instead of the boys becuase the boys never have a chance to learn anything about leading.

On the square knot issue, I find it interesting that we have square knots for awards that really are nothing more than ticket punching. The CubScouter Training Award requires you to do a bunch of stuff that you should be doing anyway and you get a do-dad for your uniform. On the other hand, I was given a distrcit level award for being an "Outstanding Unit Scouter" which means much more to me than the "CubScouter" one but there is nothing to wear to show that award.

"Actually I think I would have a lot of fun with anyone who would try to take me to task that one of my "square knots" were upside down, or reversed, or whatever"

Why would you have a square knot reversed?

"There is a dress uniform blazer??? Where do I get one? I checked the on-line scout stuff website and couldnt find it, how do you get one? "

Hey, this has already been discussed in other threads. Aren't you paying attention? :-)

To order the official dress uniform, visit http://www.scoutstuff.org/misc/70-616.pdf to download the order form.

Of course, to "Bob White's" chagrin, I don't wear the official jacket and trousers. I wear a nice wool jacket with wool trousers and the official tie.

Your troop sounds like mine, one Korean kid with white parents, everyone else is white.

If your friend is an Eagle Scout, he may not have the training but he should be familiar with the ideas of the Patrol Method and the Boy Led Troop. Of course, since this is a brand new unit, they'll need some serious guidance and direction.

I don't have any personal experience with "urban scouting" but living near DC I've had a chance to talk with a few Scoutmaster who have urban units.

There are probably loads of service projects that his scouts can do in the neighborhood. Pick up trash. Run erands for old folks. Paint over grafitti. The Scouts should wear an activity uniform such as a troop t-shirt when they are doing these things so everyone knows that the Scouts are giving back to the community.

Next, get them out of the neighborhood. Go to museums. Go to airshows. Look in the paper for free and interesting things to do. Of course they should wear their field uniform for these activities so everyone knows that they are scouts. A gaggle of teenagers of any color can make people nervous but Scouts don't bother folks.

Don't worry about parent involvement. You might be better off without it. Lack of parental involvement is better than parental interference. Look for people in the community or from the church to sit on the committee.

That's my 2 cents.

"If I am wrong Yaworski, feel free to castigate me with extreme prejudice. "

I didn't make the orignal comments about Yugos but that's the way that I read it and how I based my follow up comments. Yugos are crappy quality at best.

If you wanted a car based analogy for price, let's try Chevys and Cadillacs. Similar engineering and manufacturing quality, one just has more expensive appointments.

Le Voyageur asked

"Are Eagle Mills more for the ego, or do they serve as a means to cut cost for cash strapped units (or units with poor budget controls)?"

I'd say that they are for the ego, for people who think that advancement is the aim of Scouting and not one of the methods.

I've had some conversations with Scoutmasters from economically disadvantaged units (DC does have some poor areas). They rarely mention how many Eagles they've graduated. What they talk about is how the boy stay out of trouble, take pride in their units, do better in school, etc., etc., etc..

Out here in the 'burbs, people seem more worried about advancement. Maybe because they can afford lawyers to get their kids out of trouble.

So far, my son's Boy Scout experience has cost me about $20. Why's that? Well, he's sold enough popcorn to pay for uniforms, camping gear and summer camp.

The costs do mount up as OGE enumerated but when you have kids, the cost for anything mount up. My daughter want to take riding lessons, popcorn sales don't cover that.

Costs will vary from area to area, we only pay about $170 for a week of summer camp.

You are right about the value of a volunteer's time, it can be expensive. I've given up thousands of dollars of refereeing income to attend scout functions. Do I care? Not really? As long as I can make my mortgage payments. What about other things that I give up? Well, that's part of being a parent.

Scoutmaster Ron said:

"Boys shouldnt be pushed into advancement or a price tage even put on it."

You're right about that but for discussion purposes, knowing the cost is interesting. Much like when they compute the cost of raising a son vs. a daughter. It doesn't keep you from having kids but it does make you say, "Wow!"

"Yugo or Mercedes, either way the youth benefits. Money shouldn't be an issue."

The youth may benefit to some degree with the Yugo method but along the way the learns more bad things than good. What's he learn? Look for the easy way. Don't worry about doing it right. Requirements are for others. The goal of Scouting is an Eagle. Advancement is the most important thing.

" If I had to sit and be grilled for 1 1/2 hours, I'd quit that night. "

On the other hand, I'd be willing to bet that those boys know their knots and first aid.

"What I'm hoping to dig up is the documented rationale from the ones who made the rules what they are. "

I've been involved with many organizations, large and small, and one thing that I've learned is that unless you are a member of the inner circle, very little is revealed to you. Even if there is a "public reason," the underlying reason remains known only to the inner circle.

I firmly believe that many of the changes in rules, policies and procedures are driven by parents complaints and their demands for advancement of their children.

Picture this, Bobby needs a leadership position to advance but he can't be a PL because of attendance requirements. Why can't he be there? Oh, because soccer practice interferes. Why does he need to advance NOW? Because if he doesn't he'll be behind his friends and he won't make Eagle before he's 16.

After observing my troop, watching the goings on at summer camp and listening to parents from other troops I've concluded that much of today's Scout advancement is based on "ticket punching." Learning doesn't seem to be a priority anymore. If you are warm and there, you get signed off.

Read the discussions here and elsewhere about "Eagle factories," troops that have producing Eagles as their main goal.

The problem is that BSA knows that if they make things difficult, kids will quit or maybe the parents will make them quit because they aren't "advancing" rapidly. We can't have kids quitting because that will negatively impact the cash flow.

Our troop lost 50% of our new scouts with the primary reason given off-the-record being that the ASM for New Scouts is a stickler for requirements being met and that aggrevated the parents.

Look at BSA's statements about advancement, it seems to be the focus now.

Okay, rant over.

Page 4 Special regulations (sounds a lot like a rule, doesn't it) ". . . members wear only the insignia that show their present status in the movement. Members should make every effort to keep their uniforms neat and uncluttered."

"Attention span and fine motor skills, for the younger ones, might be a problem - "

There you go again, selling your young ones short. In days of yore, kids learned to sew at an early age. As for the attention span, this might be good to develop that since most kids do little to enhance attention paying abilities (video games and cartoons do nothing to improve ones ability to pay attentiona).

"It's illegal here to carry any knife at all anywhere unless there is a valid reason for using them"

Who decides if the reason is valid? I never know when I'll be attacked by a box sealed with stickytape or a rogue salami leaps into my path and the only way past is to slice it and eat it.

"do you think scouts/scouters would be interested in learning how to handsew."

I don't know if they'd be interested but they should know. I learned to do simple handsewing waaaaay back when. The skill has saved me numerous times when things happen like the seat of my trousers split (very embarassing when you're in high school), buttons fall off suits, or I needed to sew patches on my uniform.

The child knows that the parent has pride in his accomplishments when that parent wears the pins in a non-scouting environment. He'll see Dad going to work with an AOL pin on his suit. Mom heads off to the factory with a 1st class pin attached to her company ID badge.

I'm afraid that I'm going to sound like "Bob White" but when mom and dad wear the pins on their uniforms they send a message to the kid that rules don't apply to them.

"In these parts, parents of both sexes wear the parents pins their boy earns on their uniform. It may not be correct, but it does show that the parent is proud of the boy's accomplishment."

Why don't they really show their pride and wear the pin on their civilian clothers. Most everyone at the Scout meeting already knows what the son has accomplished.

Sometimes talking quietly works, sometimes yelling works. Talking quietly usually works best with someone who is already inclined to do what he is supposed to do.

The best solution is that the failure of these boys to complete assigned tasks is reported to the BOR and they don't let him advance. If he cares about advancement, he'll either straighten up. The worst case is that he'll continue with scouts and infect others with his attitude.

As for hitting, that might be a good thing. Yep, it might. He swings at the PL, gets knocked on his can and learns who the alpha wolf is. Of course, we cannot condone such activty but we might contrive to be looking the other way.