wojauwe

I don't know any specific rules on this but I know that in our council the OA lodge chief is on the Board.This year that is a 16yr. old.As far as I know he is the only youth on the board.

I know this thread is pretty much played out.But it was pointed out to me in a private message that I made a misstatement."You are not responsible for teaching the merit badge.Your job is to review the boys plans for fullfilling a requirement and checking that the requirement was completed."

OK your job is to council and guide and this is teaching.Some require more than

others.What I was trying to say was that you don't need to draw out a detailed class plan for the badge.You explain to them what is needed and you guide them towards the answer.Personally I beleive that helping them know what questions they need to ask and where to look for the answers is important.

If it's something like leathercraft,I'll show them how to use the tools and such

but I'm not giving them a predesigned project.There has to be some challenge.

Guess I got carried away with minimiseing the challenge.The old recruitment approach,you know "it's only an hour a week to be Scoutmaster".

Sorry about that.

And thanks BW for not making my error a public flogging.

Wauna La-Montay Lodge#442

Entire OA experiance has been as an adult.

Chapter Advisor, Vigil

The Council or District key 3 are only involved in the situation of an adult picked as a district choice or council choice if person does not function on a District level.

I think I may have given the wrong impression on selecting

my district nominees.I don't make these choices lightly and I've never done more than 1 in a year and I don't choose one

every year.(our chapter had 130 regular candidates this year)

I do follow the rules that FB stated.I have waived the camping on 2 in 6 years In our lodge the Chapter advisor has

the option to make this decision.Our chapter is as large as many Lodges and our lodge is pretty big we have 26 chapters

grouped into 3 service areas,so some of the administrative powers are given to the chapter for it's members.

I still talk with Lodge advisor about these choices since I'm

pretty active at lodge level and see him often.

One point though I want very clear is a person should never!

be selected as a reward.Only choose adults who will be an asset

to the order.

I've seen OA membership used as a status,and have actually had

someone come to me who is Vigil eligable and tell me that he should receive vigil because it's an "award" he thinks he deserves.This is the kind of person who doesn't stand a chance

with our Vigil selection commitee.

All of the Honors in the OA are signs of your deeper commitment to the order.

Actually if you go to a fabric store there is a no fray product.comes in spray form ,tubes and brush in bottle.

It's for edges. We some times use it to save sewing time

on regalia.Does a pretty good job stopping fraying on cut edges.

Also you can get snaps.They go on like leather rivets.

Can find these in craft shops where leather work supplies are found or in some Fabric stores.

I've washed my sash in regular warm wash with no problems.

I just encountered the 18 thru 20 registration situation.

You can't do a duel registration in this situation.

You need to register as a youth in the venture crew and you need to submit an adult leader registration form for the troop.

So you need to pay 2 registration fees.Had a disscusion with

people at council about this situation.The people I talked to didn't like the situation since it penalises the tweeners who are adults in one program and youth in another.

a 21 yr.old can be duel registered on the same dime as with the 17yr. old.

I'm registered for 10 merit badges and had only a few instances where I had more than 3 or 4 boys signed up with me at same time.

FOG has a good point too.You are not responsible for teaching the merit badge.Your job is to review the boys plans for fullfilling a requirement and checking that the requirement was completed.

You just make sure the applicant understands what is required

and advise him on where he might look for resources.

Eamonn pointed out the importance of the boy making the contact with the merit badge councelor.I agree strongly with

this.Sometimes I think that this process is more important than the merit badge itself.It's important for the boy to take the initiative.So another vote against a middle person.

You can always say that you are not availiable when you have what you feel to be your limit.Ask the district to not refer people to you when you have a full schedule.

Truthfully though I've never seen it to be an issue.

Oops! I wasn't remmembering Craig's original post very well.

I don't remmember the Kid/Parent one.But I still may be able to find it for you if you want.

If Craig is speaking of the ceremony that I remmember'It's

not a problem.The paint one, I remmember is for dens moving to next level.One yellow stripe for tiger to wolf ,a yellow and a blue to bear etc.with something said about each level.

Craig I realise from the date on initial entry it's late for

this year but if you still want it I can see if I can find it

for you.I couldn't find it in my files but I think I can get it

from someone I worked Pow Wows with.

As far as the Native american situation is concerned,the cubscout thing is not a problem.

Eamonn is right that there can be a problem if an OA ceremonies team were to use face paint.The OA ceremonilists are wearing Regalia that is representative of different Native Tribes and if they were to include items of religous symbolism

it would have more impact than the Cub leader putting a line of paint to symbolise cub ranks.

They could possibly upset someone.

Another thing the OA is not allowed to mimic Native religous ceremonies.

I agree with you BP.Did you take a peak at the web site I put in the entry I made a couple of boxes up?It's a flyer for a youth designed and planned Venture event.It's a great example

of what a youth run organization can do.

I'm not involved as a Venture advisor,but the originator of this event is my son and I've watched closely as he brought together a team of youth and 'adult advisors' and made his dream become a reality.

FScouter

Sorry if I was kind of pissy.But the copying of things out of context to focus a response is a pet peeve of mine.

I really was not trying to answer the full scope of Proud Eagle's

complaints.Was just addressing the 2 different adult age things.

The complaint I was making about the event commitees spending time on the issue was a minor point and the people I was talking about were honestly trying to do the right thing.They weren't so much argueing as trying to figure out the logistics.

I agree with you though PE's camp mangement seemed to be a little out of line with the approach they have taken with the

staff.

Eamonn

I think sometimes this is the problem with the broad audiance

that the forum reaches.The relationship between the chapter/Lodge and the District/Council manifests itself differently from area to area.Even in our Lodge it's different

from chapter to chapter.We have 25 chapters in our lodge and there are probably that many different situations.

My philosophy with our chapter is to encourage an openess and look for different ways we can be an asset in the district.

It's true that what the commisioner is doing is under that hat.But he knows he can come to the chapter with problems because I make it a habit of knowing as much as I can about what is going on and can at the very least know who he can go to for help.

We serve mostly as a communication conduit as a way of helping

units.I have a small core of adults who have served time in their units,trained their replacements and are seeking to

work more at the district level with the chapter.

Most of my time now is spent with chapter,Lodge or section OA stuff now.I've given up my District training team stuff(except for an occasional cooking class)Don't go on troop things much anymore.We have a healthy troop with plenty of adults stepping up to fill gaps.So I have the luxuary of focusing on OA and have a few others in same situation.

I try to make it clear in forums that this is how we do it and

not "how it is done".

I came into the forum fairly recently and responded to a woman

about ordeals,pointing out that she should contact her council offices to get in touch with someone who could tell her the specifics for her Lodge.The other responses I'd seen told her that it was such and such a way(the way of their lodge)or gave her national websites.These were useless for her.Actually my response was useless too,since I hadn't noted the date of her posting.(sorry about the scattered nature of this response)

FScouter

That was very helpfull of you to find a sentance you could take out of context to point out what an idiot I am.

I'm glad things are so clear in your world.the people that are

deabating this issue are trying to deal with 2 different groups

with diferent breakdowns of age for YP.There are written policies for each of these programs.

The 18 seperation definitely needs to take precedence when both programs are involved.There are just some who feel they need to take the extra step to cover both sets of rules.They are only trying to do what's right and Before you chimed in it

seems the consensus was to follow the Boy scout break down and if possible throw in the extra split,to sooth other programs concerns.

Thanks for putting me in my place.

Yea that's pretty much how I feel about it.It would be nice if

there was clearly stated policy so that planning commitees wouldn't be wasting time arguing about what to do every time the situation comes up.

But yea,respect for the spirit of YP should be the guide.

kenk,

Keep looking for a troop that may be a good fit.Talk to the leadership about your son's special situation and go for unit that has most understanding people.

I'd suggest that when you enter troop register as a commitee member and just be an active parent helping on camping trips so that your energy isn't taken too much away from your son.

Middle school age boys can be pretty mean.If they are given the right role models and training they do tend to grow out of it.

Jason is right about helping son to develope scout skills to

show his strengths.

Another thing that may be helpfull would be talking to troop about finding someone who could give presentation on your son's problem.This could be worked into troop sponsorship of

workshop on Disabilities awareness Merit Badge.

It's going to be hard for your son wherever he encounters boys in this age group.They tend to strike out at those whom they don't understand.At least in a well run troop with suportive adults there is a better chance of influencing the growth of the boys he is around.

The Pack is obviously not working as well as it should.Scouting should be a safe haven.The teasing and bullying should be stifled as soon as it rears it's ugly head.

In my ASM position I'm very firm about stopping any poking or picking no matter how innocent.It's so easy for this kind of thing to get out of control.

AS a WEBELOS leader I had 6 out of 9 boys in my den who were ADD.So it was very important that there be a strong structure to program.

Our Chapter does a call out for new candidates.

We tap out our vigil selections at the Lodge awards banquet.

Chief of the fire does whisper in your ear"hard or soft?" before whacking you.

BW

That is one of the prime ways of looking at it.Do you know if the situation is addressed specifically in a written rule?

Working with Lodge leadership in planning things,

I get the impression that there is no such clearly written rule.Actually it seems that some times they go by the Boy scout split only.I think it's influenced by the chair of each events interpretation of situation.

The OA unit Rep is supposed to give a 2 way communication between troops and Chapter.Thus letting us know what the strengths and weaknesses of units are.Idealy this would help us direct resources towards units in need.Say there are 2 troops who would like to do a 50mile backtrip but neither has

the people resources to pull it off.If they would combine resources they could do this.

With the input from Unit Reps. the chapter can be a match maker to fill gaps in unit programs.

They can give us ideas of how we can plan our program to best

serve the units in our district.

BW,

I beleive the break down,was connected to the different age of an adult in the 2 programs.This issue comes into play in the OA as well.

in the boy scouts 18 is adult but is youth until 21 in Venture and the OA.

So you need to segregrate the 18 and above from below 18.But in a Venture situation that 18,19 and 20 year old is a youth and thus needs to be seperate from

the 21 and above.It throws in another seperation factor.There is some debate as to how to deal with this.We just do the extra split at Lodge events to be on the safe side.

Have no clear answer on the YP rules.We do the triple age split at OA events though I don't know if it's a rule.My impression is that it's just a Lodge policy

to deal with a situation that no one is real clear on.

As to the wages for camp staff.My boys have explained to me that they are considered compensated Volunteers and thus not subject to minimum wage restrictions.

This works in Oregon but it may be different in other States.I've been told that

staff in California receive minimum wage.

It does seem though that your camp management is not playing straight.In 7 years my sons have been involved as camp staff, they have always been given a complete

contract and a copy.They were also given very clear written descriptions of

regulations they needed to follow.This information was also gone over months before camp in Staff orientation meeting.

That's how our council works.May be totally irelevent to you.

One of the traditions we have been able to keep going for the past 6 years or so,is a chapter run merit badge clinic for the district units.It's our first chapter program event of the fall.We pick a non aquatic summer camp merit badge,

when we plan basic calandar for coming program year.I reserve our local cubscout day camp for a day.We promote at beggining of summer letting scoutmasters know

what prerequisites will be needed.

Last year it was pioneering merit badge,this year we are doing Emergancy Preparedness.

It's pretty neat by splitting merit badge into about 6 stations and splitting groups into 6 different rotations,we are able to pull off 8hrs.of intensive classes with small class sizes.It far surpasses most summer camp staff's efforts.

This has helped get our foot in the door with the scoutmasters.More and more of them are seeing us as an asset to them.It's a long struggle we still encounter the

scoutmasters that see us as something sucking their senior boys away.

On the lodge level we have included all scouts in our Lodge Leadership Developement conference.We still have some OA specific classes but we've made the leadership things generic,so we are offering to give leadership training to their youth leaders.

Our chapter runs our Districts Camporree and we work closely with the troops.

Most of our commisioners are OA members(at least from youth)and I talk to as many as I can,had couple ,who'd been lapsed members since youth,reregister and seal their membership with brotherhood conversion. Some of the scoutmasters I trained as WEBELOS leaders or as new scoutmasters.

We are lucky to have fewer political types in our District than what it seems some have the bad luck to be cursed with.There are some but I try to be open and non confrontational and ask them what they need help with.

Because of this relationship I had a scoutmaster come to me talking about his problems with getting adult leadership help.One of our 19yr.olds was able to help the troop by going along on camping trip so that he could have 2 deep leadership

and thus not cancel trip.

Same troop was having trouble getting a committee chair.His commisioner(an active

OA member)helped him recuit a candidate and then we arranged for her to get training from an experianced CC (our chapter's ceremonies advisor).She spent a few monthes going to the other troops commitee meetings and watching the planning

process of a succesfull troop then took that knowledge back.

These are the kind of things I see the OA Chapter as a District service entity,

being able to do better if we can develope a closer 2 way communication with troops.

We have a core who don't see us as competetors and with them it's great.

National launched the Mentor program the year before last,(not sure of year)and these were the types of things they forsaw the program accomplishing.I haven't heard much about the program since class at Conclave that introduced it.

It's taken me 5 years as Chapter advisor to undo some of the aloof eliteism that

was practiced by my predecesor.I just try to always be open and accessable.

It did help that I'd been on district training team for several years before and

had devloped a basic relationship with other District people and the new batch of

adult leaders.

We've had some success but no where near what I'd like to see.

Hey I've even got LDS leaders to rejoin the OA and promote program in their units.Only a couple but it's growing.

You know last year we actually put on an aquatic merit badge we worked with a couple of Sea Scout Ships to offer small boat and sailing Merit badge workshops.

We mostly set that one up and promoted it.The Sea Scouts did most of the work.

So you can see I'm a beleiver in a healthy scouting family who want to see all

members of the family prosper.(Please no Sibling rivalry)

sorry Aardvark

Didn't notice the Quotes.It's a philosophical hot spot with me more than problem with the terms.

YiB

Eamonn

Thanks,I'd be overwhelmed with joy if each of our units gave us a person to help on election teams (we have 71 units counting the LDS varsity teams).Just having someone in each unit to put the elections on the unit's calendar would be great.

The phone calling which tends to fall to a very small group is daunting,with all the messages not returned and need for multiple calls.

Still this is but a small part of the position.There should be a year round communication between units and Chapter/Lodge.I don't think the position was ever well defined.The hope was that we could get communications going that would help us put in place the Mentor program to help use Chapter resources to help units

who were having problems.Of course the only people who became involved were the healthy units.(Sorta like trying to get units to roundtable and making the announcement at roundtable.)

The OA Unit representative position is a leadership position that can be used as leadership for Eagle candidate.(that was the carrot used to get boys involved) I exspect more and am only getting it from a very small percent.

Aardvark,

Sadly your experiance is common.I've seen people wearing the patch who I've never seen at a chapter meeting.I've sent letters and emails to Scoutmasters

informing them that before they give some one credit for position it should go through chapter chief and Advisor to insure that they actually are fulfilling the requirements.

To all, I'd love to hear any news of the program being fully used and how they accomplished it.

We have a chapter email list that has 200 members on and we use that to attempt to recruit and educate.Have 35 scoutmasters another group mailing list and use that frequently and send out an OA informational letter to all unit leaders each charter year. We have actually offered people the opportuniy to fullfill there obligation by useing email to get information from and to Chapter.We ask them to attend there PLC to communicate with unit.

Thanks for any input on how we might improve our efforts.

I came into forum a week or so ago and my first experiance was very frustrating,

and I didn't handle it very well.I had a controversial viewpoint on OA and Venture.

I wasn't perfect in my terminology.These imperfections became the focus of the responses.My frustrated responses and attempts to qualify statements only got me deeper into directions I never intended.I was attacked for my contempt for rules and proper terminology.I don't have that comtempt but the focus on my imperfect terminologies seemed to be taking things away from the meat of the issue.

Towards the end ,Eamonn did come in with an argument that got to heart of the

problems that I wanted to hear input on.It was so tedious getting to that one point,I decided to pull out of thread.

Yes it is important to follow the rules,to wear uniform properly and use the right terms.It's just that I feel there may be more important things to focus on sometimes(note this does not mean throw the rules out).

I thought this was an informal forum.From what I had seen in some browseing it useually is.There does seem to be a tendancy to attack the wording of posters who

dissagree with a popular point of view.My "favorite" technique used is the practice of copying lines and responding to a line out of context,sometimes with the effect of totally twisting a poster's message.

I do hope this is not taken as an insult to any one.It's not intended to be an

attack,just a personal observation after limited exposure.

YiB,

Quilawalensitchewagan Wojauwe