wojauwe

I'd like to second Trail finders suggestions.Make sure you have crew bylaws in place.State clearly what expectations you have for members and what the joining process is.It's good to have these things clearly defined and agreed on by the membership.Group chemistry is very important with a group of this size and you should have the tools to give you some control of it.

It is true that the program is for the youth but it is the Adult leadership's responsability to insure that the "Guide to safe scouting" is followed.The situation you stated sends up red flags of potential youth protection issues.It's right for your CC to express

concern.

Wow! I had no idea you faced such a logistical problem.I was thinking you just had the normal need for adult leadership.You need some very special driven people.

We are so spoiled in our council,with a Seabase on the Columbia near where the Willamette joins up.It's closer to the main population center than any of our summer camps.

Eamonn

Have you made contact with adults connected with these new recruits?Adult leaders from the troops and parents.With 40 youth prospects there should be a few good adult prospects who might catch the Sea Scouting bug.Sounds like you have some good salesmen for the program.Direct them in direction of the adults as well.

Hang in there.Sounds to me like you've done an awesome job of starting what could become far more than you ever dreamed.New ships may come out of this but this need not be your job.You can train the leaders who will take this dream to next level.

I'm sorry to hear that you have little support from SE or DE.That could change quickly if they become aware of the numbers you are adding to the scouting program.their jobs are directly linked to these numbers.

Good luck and you do deserve cheers.Your only mistake was not being able to predict this unexspected success.

Oops! I used candidates instead of new members in above post.

At our ordeal's we always have a chapter orientation meeting,we will have members of our ceremonies team in regalia at this meeting to pump

new candidates up.We also circulate an interest survey to new members and have them filled out and returned on the spot.This helps us know who to target with calls for specific jobs.

often times our teams are running a ceremony multiple times,so we will invite the new candidates

to stay as observers for the next ceremony.They get to see the team in the relaxed time and experiance the comraderie that a good team developes and watch them move into their ceremonial mode.

DO NOT COUNT ON EMAIL ALONE,PERSON TO PERSON IS BEST WITH FOLLOW UP CALLS.Email is great for communicating information once you've gotten their interest.

Yes definitely.Though many people try to seperate Venturing from Boy Scouts, a Venturer is still a member of the BSA.If an adult were to have been elected into OA as a youth and became registered as a leader in Cub Scouts or Ventureing he could be an active OA member,as long as he's registered in a scouting unit that is part of the overall BSA program.

Sorry Eamonn that I don't know of a publication to point you to,but as a Chapter Advisor for the past six years,I have seen this accepted by the Lodge,have seen a Venture leader selected for Vigil and that has to go through National.So all the evidence I've seen points to it being a true thing.

We do call out at our Spring camporee.We are encouraged to let candidates know as soon as they are elected to give time to plan going to ordeal our first ordeal is 2 weeks after camporee.Still we leave it up to troops since it's tradition in some troops to let it be a surprise when they are called off to ceremony site for callout.We make sure parents know though so they can work it in to schedule and try to insure that candidates make it to callout.

We take care of paperwork as soon as election is done and get it turned in to lodge well before call out.This definitely has to take place no matter who does the callout.

A formal ceremonial call out I feel to be the best way to go.Lodges have different dynamics depending on population densities,strength of lodge or chapter ceremonial programs.If at all possible chapter or lodge should do the callout.

Sometimes the resources are not there and you do the best with what you have.

I'm lucky our chapter has a very strong ceremonies program and we are in a very dense population center

so it's not a big strain for people to make it to chapter callout.

I know chapters though who are 50miles from side to side and have half dozen members.

Dang,got to quit double clicking

Call out is not a required event.It's simply a ceremonial way of informing new candidates.It's neat to have a ceremony that recognises them and encourages them to attend the required Ordeal within next calendar year.It's not something they have to go through.There are no requirements on this.

There has been talk of National,putting out a standardised ceremony since there are as many or more call out ceremonies as there are chapters.

The thought is by standadiseing it,we can be insured that the ceremony is conistant with OA traditions.

Sorry off the point.Your troop doing callout because it's difficult to get candidates to Lodge event is fine,it's better than just getting the letter in the mail,which is all that is required.

Call out is not a required event.It's simply a ceremonial way of informing new candidates.It's neat to have a ceremony that recognises them and encourages them to attend the required Ordeal within next calendar year.It's not something they have to go through.There are no requirements on this.

There has been talk of National,putting out a standardised ceremony since there are as many or more call out ceremonies as there are chapters.

The thought is by standadiseing it,we can be insured that the ceremony is conistant with OA traditions.

Sorry off the point.Your troop doing callout because it's difficult to get candidates to Lodge event is fine,it's better than just getting the letter in the mail,which is all that is required.

Lynda J, that would be awesome,that special personal touch is something lost to my chapter we had 145 candidates to call out at camporee and got complaints about it takeing too long when the names were read off as fast as possible.We only have tap out for Vigil.

John-in-KC

True God is mentioned but not in a way that would represent any specific dogmatic system.It's very open,and like I said scout oath and law is the base

and reverent is part of that.mmhardy was right on, when the proper atmosphere of solemnity is acheived you will find a religous experiance on your own terms.I've had the honor of observing all 4 ceremonies from preordeal to Vigil over a 60hr.period and yes God is spoken of but is not defined.

John-in-KC

True God is mentioned but not in a way that would represent any specific dogmatic system.It's very open,and like I said scout oath and law is the base

and reverent is part of that.mmhardy was right on, when the proper atmosphere of solemnity is acheived you will find a religous experiance on your own terms.I've had the honor of observing all 4 ceremonies from preordeal to Vigil over a 60hr.period and yes God is spoken of but is not defined.

The OA is scouting,even the ceremonies are scouting.Nothing that violates any scout rules or the scout law and oath takes place in the OA.The OA strives to exemplify these principles.So no blood letting.If a parent was concerned about their son going through a ceremony,the ceremony will not be kept secret from them.Our desire to preserve the mystery is superceeded by this concern the parent has for their son's safety.

ok let's get to the basics here. if you get any type of a religous impression,from an OA ceremony it was totally of your making.

The OA is very carefull not to include any native american or any other religous elements in their ceremonies.There are no deities represented.There are human Principles who personify aspects of leadership and service.There is a deep respect for the out doors and nature but no worship.

The OA ceremonies are tottally built on the scout law and oath and the most admirable qualities of being a good scout.

Please educate your self before you bring the OA into your religous witch hunt.We are the brotherhood of cheerfull service and that is what our ceremonies reflect.No Gods are called on whether christian or pagan.You are given plenty of room to reflect on your own personal religous beleifs in the Solemn atmosphere of a well done ceremony.But you are never fed anybody's Dogma or deities.

sst3rd,

On another point.Your lodge's pressure to be more restrictive,probably would not be something that National would be real enthused about.The focus has been put on numbers in the proffesional ranks.

This is something that I've had philosphical problems with for a while.I've become concerned that the OA has become less special with the more liberal selection process.I've finnally come to terms with the fact that there will be a lot more people wearing flaps than there will be active members.

In fairness there are boys who would not of passed a stringent aproval process who have, when given the opportunity stepped up and become fine arrowmen.

If their scoutmaster would of been too pickey we would of missed out on a great asset to the order.

It's not always easy to see the potential.I've been pleasently surprised a few times after what at first seemed to have been a poor election result.

YiB,

wojauwe

sst3rd,

It is up to you to choose who you feel shows scout spirit and has the potential and desire to fullfill their duties as scouts and arrowmen.I'm the chapter advisor for a chapter that elected 145 candidates this year and so far we've had 55 inducted.We have one more ordeal coming in October with 377 uninducted candidates in the lodge.

We've put so much emphasis on makeing sure that units are aware that they can select all eligable

scouts,that most troops elect all eligable members.

Consequently our numbers are inflated.

I'm trying to get scoutmasters to be a little more selective with scoutmasters aproval.

At a minimum I like to see them only offer up candidates who want to enter the OA and will attend an ordeal.

At the least we will get a years lodge dues and a days work at our camps.

I don't think it's right to use age as a criteria.

If they have the heart and the will to take on the challenge,the maturity will come later.I would rather see a young enthusiastic arrowman who will grow into maturity and leadership than a more mature scout who is so busy that we only get 1% of his focus,as my chapter chief.

It is good to educate troop on the responsibility of being an arrowman,before you interview them about their desire to enter the OA.Pick good scouts who have a desire to become better scouts.

What happened with our chapter was that many of our larger troops put up every first class scout and made ballots that contained a box that said "all of the above" consequentially 35 boys elected in one troop of who 12 have attended one of our 5 Spring ordeals.

Find a middle ground between that and only aproving the super mature scout.

Yours in Brotherhood,

Quilawelensitchewagan Wojauwe

sst3rd,

It is up to you to choose who you feel shows scout spirit and has the potential and desire to fullfill their duties as scouts and arrowmen.I'm the chapter advisor for a chapter that elected 145 candidates this year and so far we've had 55 inducted.We have one more ordeal coming in October with 377 uninducted candidates in the lodge.

We've put so much emphasis on makeing sure that units are aware that they can select all eligable

scouts,that most troops elect all eligable members.

Consequently our numbers are inflated.

I'm trying to get scoutmasters to be a little more selective with scoutmasters aproval.

At a minimum I like to see them only offer up candidates who want to enter the OA and will attend an ordeal.

At the least we will get a years lodge dues and a days work at our camps.

I don't think it's right to use age as a criteria.

If they have the heart and the will to take on the challenge,the maturity will come later.I would rather see a young enthusiastic arrowman who will grow into maturity and leadership than a more mature scout who is so busy that we only get 1% of his focus,as my chapter chief.

It is good to educate troop on the responsibility of being an arrowman,before you interview them about their desire to enter the OA.Pick good scouts who have a desire to become better scouts.

What happened with our chapter was that many of our larger troops put up every first class scout and made ballots that contained a box that said "all of the above" consequentially 35 boys elected in one troop of who 12 have attended one of our 5 Spring ordeals.

Find a middle ground between that and only aproving the super mature scout.

Yours in Brotherhood,

Quilawelensitchewagan Wojauwe

I think some people have missed the original reasoning for uniforms.It had little to do with forming super citizen or the military.

The concept was to dissolve barriers, a rich upper class boy would be indistinquishable from the poorer working class boy.

I don't know if it's that relevent for most units today and I doubt that there are a lot of people who now see it that way.

I'm not a fanatic about uniforming but I do think it's usefull in giving some sense of belonging to the scouting family.

I may have the ratio wrong.I had the wrong number in my head for our quota.We only selected 26 last year becuse their were only 13 youth nominated.Just asked my son (who is selection committee chair this year) he said we get around 40.Our membership is around 2000.So 1 for 50 sounds right.

Whoops,wasn't quick enough to edit.I should have said no more adults than youth.

Any scout or scouter can submit a nomination form in our lodge.

The nominators do not need to be members.These nominees are reviewed by the Vigil selection commitee.Each chapter is allowed a youth vote and each lodge officer has a vote.We do not allow eligable members(those who have held Brotherhood honor for 2yrs. or longer)to be involved in the selection.So the make up is Vigil members and ordeal members or new Brotherhood members.Chapter chiefs are the primary members,if they can not attend they apoint a proxy.

Advisors are invited and are allowed to speak in support or against nominees.

We are allowed 1 candidate for each 100 registered members.You can only select as many adults as you have adults.

We have had years when we could not select our full quota because there were not enough youth nominated.We've also had years where 10% or less are adults because there was a good crop of youth.Youth have priority,an adult is not elected in place of a deserving youth.The process takes all day with a lunch break.The adult selections are the hardest since there is useually an abundance of them nominated.

NWScouter:The pool we draw from is that of current members if they haven't paid there dues they are not a viable candidate.

Adrianvs

Yea,It's part of my Vigil name Quilawelensitchewagan Wojauwe

loosly translated as distressed Leader.This was the result of

The first chapter chief I was advisor for and the second(my son)conspireing to find the longest name that would fit on name tag.Was a name I was not real pleased with it at first,but after they explained ,I was much better with it.sometimes it's hard to find translations that fit what you're trying to say.They were also constrained by their overwhelming desire to tag me with something that's pronounciation would insure that I be distressed.

The fact that they felt comfortable enough with me to be playfull,I found to be a compliment in itself.

OK,

I've pasted the latest reply from signals website creator,Rick.

BW he's added the stalking signals to web site.So far 1948 is

the earliest mention of Scout sign for silence.

Concerning the usage in other countries.isn't Eammon from England?He may be able to give insight on that.

"I added Beard's gesture signals, See:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/beard/gesture_signals.htm

Note that Beard does not (in 1918) use the Scout Sign to indicate silence or

attention.

My 1945 BSA Handbook does not mention it either, but it does in 1948 (5th

Edition): under "The Scout Sign," it says "You use it when you repeat the Scout

Oath and Law. It may also be used by your leaders to call attention in Troop

or Patrol Meetings, or when on a hike. When you see a leader give the Scout

Sign, stand at attention, be quiet, and return the Scout Sign, waiting for the

instructions which follow."

Likewise, this 1948 BSA Handbook shows this sign for "Attention" under "Field

Signals" in the Signaling section. "Field Signals" replaced the "Gesture

Signals" Found in the 1945 Handbook. Field Signals are based on the "Silent

Signals" which appear on my website.

For the above BSA Handbook versions, see:

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/field_signals.htm

I'll ask around to see if anyone knows where it came from.

Rick "

http://www.oa-442.org/cgi-bin/442/index.cgi?page=downloads#CAP

This is the download page for our lodge's programs and forms.

One of these is the CAP book (Chapter Assistance Program)This was started 3 years ago and is an on going program.This year at our section Conclave the first class will be on every ones schedule,chapters will take class as group.It's an extension of the Lodge assistance program which is section level workshop aimed at helping Lodges develope healthy program.

We will outline CAP and try to get chapters engaged in useing it and adding to it.The idea is that it should grow as we use it.

My son was one of the prime forces in develping the CAP program.The class that I gave you outline for sprang from this

work.

Feel free to use what ever is helpfull to you.