Webelosmom

I am not a person who sews....We just shelled out the $$$$ for the official shorts and pants, as our troop committee recently voted that the boys in my son's troop must now wear the entire official uniform, down to the socks.

The size 12 pants we bought are ridiculously long....I don't understand why the sizes can't be at least close to the normal sizes in the department stores.

Just venting....

I enjoyed reading the posts about the boys wearing their uniforms in school, etc.

I have a story to share, too....(warning: Proud Scout Parent story ahead!)

Our middle school principal asked that students who were Boy Scouts would hold a flag ceremony on September 11th. My son was talking with the other Boy Scouts beforehand, and I soon gathered from their conversation that all of the boys had brought clothes to change in to after the ceremony...except mine. I told my son that, if he wanted me to, I would bring him some clothes later.

Afterward, as I was leaving, I asked my son if he wanted me to come back with some clothes. "No," he said "I think I'll just stay in my uniform." His friend said "Me, too." and soon all of the boys (there were about 10 of them, from 3 different troops) had decided to do the same. I'm not sure what changed their minds...maybe it was the compliments they received from some of the teachers and a few students after the ceremony...whatever the reason, I was happy to see it.

I haven't been able to find a concrete answer to this from my pack leaders or district:

Is a medical form required by the BSA for every outing? Only overnight outings? What about camps? Only particular camps? Does it depend on what state you are in, or who the camps are registered with, etc.?

Or does BSA have a blanket policy that requires an updated medical form to accompany a Cub Scout on every scout-related outing/camp?

We have a Webelos Outdoor weekend coming up next weekend. When my older son was a Cub Scout (different state) I had to fill out a health form EVERY time he went on ANY scout-related outing, regardless of whether a parent was with him.

I've been given various answers to this, regarding the upcoming campout, from "Well, the district didn't mention it in the registration form, so we don't need it," to "the back page of each Cub's application to join a pack counts as a medical form," and, finally, "Well, we probably should have them, but our district didn't require them last year."

One leader told me I shouldn't even call and ask, but that if I did, not to mention which pack I am with. When I mentioned the chance that we could be asked for them when we arrive at the camp, this leader said "Well, then, I'll just badger them into letting us in. After all, they didn't tell us we needed the forms." (This was said in the presence of all of the parents and boys, when I asked if we should check about needing the forms.)

I would like to know if the medical/health form requirement is absolute, or varies with circumstances (how far away the outing is, how long it lasts, whether or not parents are along, what state you are in), or is it absolute.

Also, do you have to have them along, or is it enough for them to be on file with the pack?

Thanks-

"What's wrong with a group of men and boys having time together without women around?"

I don't remember reading any posts on this thread that stated or even implied this. This thread keeps twisting and turning off of the original idea/question. No one has said guys can't have their guy time. None of us have said something's wrong with the males going camping without the females around.

The topic has taken many twists and turns, depending on different people and situations.

Although many will say that conditions don't matter (that total and complete 100% exclusionary rules are a violation of BSA policy, that scout functions are open to all parents, no matter what the parents are like, what the boys want, etc.), I would like to see the question addressed with the following

conditions/components in this hypothetical case:

-The boy WANTS his mom to come along (not out of insecurity, but maybe

mom camped with him when he was a WEBELOS, or maybe Dad can't be there

or camping isn't his thing).

- Let's also assume that the mother in this case plans to conduct herself

as your ideal BSA male adult typically would/should (not hovering,

whining, no special cushy camping/sleeping equipment, etc.).

- Let's also assume our hypothetical mom only plans on attending one, maybe

as much as two campouts this year (our hypothetical troop camps at least

once a month). She recognizes the importance of "guy time".

- Let's assume our hypothetical mom has taken Youth Protection training, etc.

Heck, let's also assume that our mom is (or plans to become) an ASM or Merit

Badge Counselor.

Again, I know some will read this and say "But these things shouldn't matter-

whether or not to allow moms shouldn't depend on the circumstances."

That's right, but I would like to see the question examined under more or less rational circumstances (at least, in my case, these are the conditions that I, myself, walked in with in the first place).

I am interested to see what the "no moms camping" argument contains, when the question is posed in this desirable (and, I suspect, boring) setting.

Thanks-

Rooster7:

"Agreement that female adults, adolescent boys and camping equal potential trouble"

This was part of a post (page 1 or 2) in which I listed the various things that the moms I've spoken with on this issue had to say.

"But please don't think having males only on camping trips is a horrible thing, because it is not." I don't recall stating or inferring anything like this.

I also have yet to hear that this particular troop decided on this policy based on the boys' wishes: this may or may not be true. Regardless, I never mentioned or suggested that they should change policy.

"I am comfortable in my abilities and don't need to make a point of it at BOY Scout camp outs."

Boy, now I remember why, until recently, I remained a "lurker" on sites like these.

It's a sad thing that people can't exchange different points of view without

resorting to put-downs or false implications.

I had hoped a scout-based forum would be above this.

Even if my reasoning was, indeed, my insecurity in my abilities, and I really thought I needed to make a point of proving different at Boy Scout campouts, that isn't the point here. At issue is whether such a policy is fair and

in keeping with BSA policy.

Love the jokes!

I just asked my husband if he wanted to wear it for the next pack meeting, and he said "No, I don't think so..."

"Parent pin" is the P.C. term...we all know they're mom pins! But, if we have a single dad in our pack,we sure wouldn't want to tell his son to present him

with the "mom pin!"

I've been observing the lively discussion, and have a few things to add:

1. The quote about "being in the south" isn't mine, it belongs to a woman who

has lived here for 20 years, and considers herself a Texan.

2."What the boys want"? My son just wanted me to come along, maybe once. I

camped with him when he was a Cub and a Webelos. He wanted me to come

with him because he actually likes his mom around! (Yes, I'm sure it

will wear off soon, it's already starting to.)

3. "They shouldn't be able to go because the program wasn't created for them. The program was created for boys." -This argument would make sense if the issue were about GIRLS going on Boy Scout campouts. But it's about moms. The program wasn't created for dads either...

4. At least half of the den leaders in our pack are moms. The "Den Leader"

title didn't even exist until the 1970's...it was "Den Mother" before

then (according to an article I found on the web). The Cub Scout program

was created for the BOYS! But wait....we need

den leaders, so we'll settle for the moms. They're available and they

volunteered. Hey, moms, teach the boys to camp. Help them get their

badges. Lead them as they "cross over"....Whoa, hold on just a minute! You

don't think you're going to camp with the Boy Scouts, do you? What do

you think this is, lady, the Cub Scouts??

5. The original post was about camping once or twice. We (those women who

seem to share the same opinion) don't want to change how the troop camps.

We don't want to march in and start designing curtains for the tents!

We don't want to stop you from eating food that feel on the ground (but we

may suggest that you brush it off!) Really, we don't want to invade

(Ve vill take over zis troop! HaHaHaHaha!).

6. I don't think a mom would impose herself on a camping trip that if her

son didn't want her to come along.

Points I think were well made here:

"Hey, there's a difference between giving the guys some space (reasonable) and prohibiting mom's from camping (while evidently legal, a poor message to send to the boys). It sounds like the latter in this instance.

Besides which, if the troop is boy-led, ALL the adults except those with specific duties (read SM, etc.) should be keeping their distance." -DrBeado

"Moms on overnight that have gone with us must/should understand that they in a male oriented activity. A little dust,ash, etc does not mean the meal is ruined, etc,etc. If a mom wants to go on overnights I would hope that she would understand what the purpose of the overnight is , not a getting away but as been stated a bonding of boys to leaders that they may not have the opportunity to have otherwise. Overnights are scout time and PC may not be followed, but that is part of growing up. Let the moms camp but do not change the program intended except to ensure the proper decorum." -red feather

"Is it not a basic policy of BSA that all Scout functions are always open to all parents? If a mom agrees to abide by the Youth Protection rules, stick with the adult patrol, leave the boys alone, not hover, use an electric air mattress or commit any of the other sins of parental excess mentioned here, how can a unit prohibit them from attending?"-Twocubdad

Sctmom, your views are right in line with my own.

Thanks to those of you who are keeping the issue in perspective!

ASM1 and Sctmom, I would have loved to show up with my backpack and stir things up! But, as my husband reminded me, joining the troop is for my son, not me. I've asked him if he cares that I can't go camping, and, being a little more independent this year, he says he doesn't mind. I also wouldn't want my son to be ostracised by the other boys due to my actions.

I didn't plan to coddle him, though. Like I said, what bothers me is the principle, or the lack of reasoning involved.

Sctmom your question, "what's the big deal?" is exactly what I want to know. The sad thing is that the attitude of the other moms seemed to fall into the following categories:

1. Relief at not having to participate

2. Agreement that female adults, adolescent boys, and camping

equal potential trouble (very very sad...not to mention

sickening...)

3. Can't this woman just drop the subject?

I've taken the merit badge training (while visiting another troop) so I could do that.

It seems funny,more than half of our cub pack's den leaders (including myself) are women..a lot of this pack filters into the troop I'm speaking of.

I posted this already under "uniforming", but decided it probably belongs here. Does anyone wear their parent ribbon (parent pins) with their leader uniform at pack meetings?

I already know it's not a proper part of the uniform. Just curious what people think. Could it be worn as a temporary patch?

Does anyone wear their parent pins with their leader uniform?

I know they're not supposed to be included with the leader uniform, but a lot of leaders are parents, too....I want to wear my parent pins (ribbon) at the pack meeting, too! Just 'cause I'm a leader doesn't seem like a reason not to.

Just curious to hear others' opinions on this.

We moved to a new state (Texas) and my 6th grader and I were looking for a troop to join. My son's friend was in a particular troop, so we attended a meeting. As soon as I walked in the door, I was directed to where the moms were having a meeting. I decided to ask a couple of questions about the troop. I asked about moms attending campouts.....blank looks from the moms... then, "the fathers go camping with the boys...it's a father/son bonding thing."

Well, I'll make a long story as short as I can, but apparently this troop was originally part of another troop, which split into two separate troops,mainly over the issue of mom involvement.

Now, I don't even really like to camp, but I happen to be lucky enough to have a son who still likes his mom around, and I had camped with his Webelos den. He wanted me to go at least once...I wasn't planning on going on every campout! I couldn't get a good reason out of the SM, he only said "You know....women.....teenage boys....". (???)

A friend of mine was looking for a troop for her 5th grader. I told her to be sure to ask this troop about moms camping. They actually brought up the topic before she did: "By the way...we don't allow moms on our campouts." When she asked why, one of the leaders said: "Well, sometimes the men and boys might be around the campfire, and they might be talking about things that the moms shouldn't hear."!!

Anyway, we visited another troop that hadn't even heard of moms camping. They had to ask one of their church leaders about it, and he said "Haven't been asked before, but I'd have to say definitely not." We did visit one troop that didn't seem to mind maternal involvement, but they were a little too "high adventure" for my son.

We didn't end up joining a troop....that was last year. This year, my son's interest was renewed, and he joined his friend's troop(the non-mom troop)! My husband doesn't travel as much as he had to last year, so he is able to go along on campouts. He's been impressed by the troops leadership and organization. I'm supposed to be going to one of their committee (read:moms) meetings, and I'll try to keep my mouth shut....I've related this whole thing to a few people down here, and basically, the consensus is "You DO have to remember that you're in the south."

I am wondering if BSA has any kind of policy regarding this. It almost feels like descrimination: apparently they don't allow female leaders of any kind. (I wouldn't mind helping as a merit badge counselor) They DO let the moms do the bakesales and fundraising! One mom said she's just glad they get to help with SOMETHING, apparently they weren't even included with that, in the past.

I have been so stuck on the principal of the whole thing, but I've put my son first, and allowed him to join this troop. They do run a very organized program, and the older boys seem to be good leaders. I hope this post generates some response. I'm interested to find out if others have encountered this, and possibly from those who advocate such views.

Thanks for the help. I was referring to the "tiger strip".

When I looked on the web for an insignia placement guide for leaders, I was surprised to learn that the leaders are supposed to wear the temporary (optional) patch ABOVE the right pocket, not on the pocket. I have never seen this done(I've been a leader for 3 years, in two different states).

I've only seen the temporary patches hang from the button on the right pocket.

If this is the wrong way to wear them, how are people affixing their temporary patches and changing them?

I have looked at official guides and templates on the web, and they give conflicting information. Some say that male leaders wear them on the pocket, but not female leaders. Another said tan shirts=on the pocket, yellow shirts=above the pocket. I'm confused.....

Hello-

Our pack decided to have our Webelos wear the new oval Webelos patch, instead of wearing their rank badges in the diamond formation. I am confused as to what can be transferred to my son's tan shirt. Can he still wear his arrow points, recruiter patch, and his (rectangle) tiger patch on the new shirt? Is it safe to assume that the only difference is going to be the left pocket?