WAKWIB

So explain to me again, why these unscout like boys get to the EBOR and their crappy attitudes, thieving, fighting, drug abusing, porno watchin, and general bad influences are all of a sudden a problem.

 

 

No sympathy here.... You should have spoke up at second class, first class, star or life.......You missed your chance for quality control.

 

The SM has failed as well. He needs to grow a pair and learn to say no..... Of course the SM might think the lad is fine.

Jim Terry was the Scout Executive in my council (Heart of America, which covers the Kansas City metro area) a few years back. He currently is the Assistant Chief SE/CFO of BSA National. Not sure if it's exactly the same man on your friend's list, but seems like a good fit. Mr. Terry seems like a pretty decent fellow and did a pretty good job while in our council. A lot of our volunteers (myself included) thought he was one of the better SE's in recent memory.

I'm really beginning to question the value of scouter dot com when such a non-starter of a topic ends up in the Program Forum. At best, it should be damned to the pit we fondly call, Issues and Politics.

Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules.

 

The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love.

When there is more revealed about TLUSA's actual program and organizational structure , it might be interesting to have a topic where there is some comparisons made between their operation and the ours in BSA. There may be some good ideas floating around in a new and forming group that we could borrow and modify to make our program better.

Hopefully if that more positive and constructive topic is introduced it will not get deleted by a moderator or the site owner. Yeah, I know this topic that survived the purge about TL being "confused" about who they are makes it easy to take shots at them and makes us real Scouters feel so much better about ourselves. I do think a more objective study of the nuts and bolts of a potential competitor could be more constructive and helpful to us as we do our jobs of serving youth.

I have mentioned this in other threads but feel this topic should be separated. My UC has informed me that there has been a modification in the Membership standard. I have not seen it in writing and am curious if anyone else has heard if it. This is how it was described to me. If a religious CO only has members of its own organization in its unit' date=' it may continue to bar gay youth. He has told me this modification has been used to satisfy several COs that were not going to recharter.[/quote']

 

I have known Unit Commissioners that sometimes "speak with forked tongue." My guess, if he was describing an actual situation, is that this was a modification made by your Council peeps. This might work for a bit. National could turn a blind eye to it, but sooner or later it will probably bite them in the form of a discrimination suit.

I'm wondering if this opinion has any merit or significance?

 

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/BSALegalRamifications.pdf

Let's see: the TLUSA was started mainly by Southern Baptists and they get to make the rules and decide the leaders. They devised rules such that the CO and unit leaders must believe in the Triune God and belong to "pure" churches. Catholics, Methodists, Episcopalians, Mormons and others are not "pure" since their churches allow gay members and/or clergy; they are welcome to join but are prohibited from leadership positions and decision making. They've set up two classes of membership. Why would anyone join if they are stuck in the lower class?

 

​Also, the way I read their Statement of Faith, divorced men and women are also excluded from leadership. They sure are fishing with a small net.

Let's see: the TLUSA was started mainly by Southern Baptists and they get to make the rules and decide the leaders. They devised rules such that the CO and unit leaders must believe in the Triune God and belong to "pure" churches. Catholics, Methodists, Episcopalians, Mormons and others are not "pure" since their churches allow gay members and/or clergy; they are welcome to join but are prohibited from leadership positions and decision making. They've set up two classes of membership. Why would anyone join if they are stuck in the lower class?

 

​Also, the way I read their Statement of Faith, divorced men and women are also excluded from leadership. They sure are fishing with a small net.

When there is more revealed about TLUSA's actual program and organizational structure , it might be interesting to have a topic where there is some comparisons made between their operation and the ours in BSA. There may be some good ideas floating around in a new and forming group that we could borrow and modify to make our program better.

Hopefully if that more positive and constructive topic is introduced it will not get deleted by a moderator or the site owner. Yeah, I know this topic that survived the purge about TL being "confused" about who they are makes it easy to take shots at them and makes us real Scouters feel so much better about ourselves. I do think a more objective study of the nuts and bolts of a potential competitor could be more constructive and helpful to us as we do our jobs of serving youth.

I have mentioned this in other threads but feel this topic should be separated. My UC has informed me that there has been a modification in the Membership standard. I have not seen it in writing and am curious if anyone else has heard if it. This is how it was described to me. If a religious CO only has members of its own organization in its unit' date=' it may continue to bar gay youth. He has told me this modification has been used to satisfy several COs that were not going to recharter.[/quote']

 

I have known Unit Commissioners that sometimes "speak with forked tongue." My guess, if he was describing an actual situation, is that this was a modification made by your Council peeps. This might work for a bit. National could turn a blind eye to it, but sooner or later it will probably bite them in the form of a discrimination suit.

If a church is having misgivings about hosting a BSA unit, maybe this is their program.

.

Right now the spotlight seems to be on the churches that are recently dropping BSA and considering TLUSA, but I think there is an even greater potential market in those churches who have never sponsored a Scouting unit or haven't for a very long time. That is a variable that may be greater that even TLUSA expects. There seems to be a genuine surprise among TL leadership about how this thing has gained momentum. I don't think that it's all about the gay issue, or even all about Christianity. I think the sense of this being a new, grass-roots, reimaging of scouting has a lot of appeal. Honestly, that is why I find it so fascinating. I've heard people cuss and discuss various problems with Scouting for 40 years. Everyone has a big idea of what they would do if they were "king of the forest." Now we can see what happens when folks get off the pot and concentrate some creative effort to make some of these changes.

When there is more revealed about TLUSA's actual program and organizational structure , it might be interesting to have a topic where there is some comparisons made between their operation and the ours in BSA. There may be some good ideas floating around in a new and forming group that we could borrow and modify to make our program better.

Hopefully if that more positive and constructive topic is introduced it will not get deleted by a moderator or the site owner. Yeah, I know this topic that survived the purge about TL being "confused" about who they are makes it easy to take shots at them and makes us real Scouters feel so much better about ourselves. I do think a more objective study of the nuts and bolts of a potential competitor could be more constructive and helpful to us as we do our jobs of serving youth.

It's a pity that you folks make a bee-line to racism as soon as you hear the word Christian. I guess you all don't get out much.

It's a pity that you folks make a bee-line to racism as soon as you hear the word Christian. I guess you all don't get out much.

Part of it is necessary. Part of it is the corporate model that the word "trained" looks good. My company constantly adds to the six sigma/lean manufacturing training stuff we do every year. Most of the principles taught in this training are ignored in the real-life operation of the company. In fact, I would say it has done absolutely nothing to improve the way we do business and our profitability. We are in a slump and it's strange that since this big push for six sigma started about 5 years ago the only result that I have seen is, laid-off employees, reduced hours, and small wage increases that couldn't even come close to being a "cost-of-living" increase. The training is only as good as it's application. There are people in our company whose position is dependent on reinventing and repackaging the training. It's become a business unto itself. The same thing may be true of BSA.

A good part of the success of the BSA is that historically any boy in America was able to join. But for the last several decades, as America has become more ethnically and culturally diverse and open, some very fundamentalist Christian groups have been trying to exclude more and more people from the BSA. Basically these groups want the BSA to be the same as it was in the 1950s.

 

I don't see Trail Life USA becoming much more than another fringe scouting group. The BSA casts too large of a shadow.

But let's set that aside. There is nothing to suggest that Trail Life will automatically become a "mighty whitey club." Well, unless you make the logical fallacy that Christian equals white-only. This new organization want the Chartered Orgs to own this project completely...not some board of corporate suits. Surely you understand that there is an abundance of churches in the black, Hispanic, etc. communities that could easily sign-off on TLUSA's statement of faith and values. There is no "white only" stamp across the charter agreement. There is absolutely NO barrier! What BSA did in the past, in terms of color segregation is done and over. Trail Life does not intend to revisit or repackage that unfortunate practice.

A good part of the success of the BSA is that historically any boy in America was able to join. But for the last several decades, as America has become more ethnically and culturally diverse and open, some very fundamentalist Christian groups have been trying to exclude more and more people from the BSA. Basically these groups want the BSA to be the same as it was in the 1950s.

 

I don't see Trail Life USA becoming much more than another fringe scouting group. The BSA casts too large of a shadow.

Just sayin'....

Since it said he was something of a historian there had to be something on the internet by or about him.

Finally found his history site here.

http://www.internetscoutmuseum.com/about.html

I just saw this and thought it might be relevant to this thread:

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/201...0/?ref=HRER3-1

 

In case you don't read Italian here's a synopsis:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...n-8810062.html

 

Headline: "Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven"

Edit: Oops, here's the English version:

http://www.repubblica.it/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/

“You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.â€Â

He seems to saying what the Bible says in that our conscience is the light of God within each person. That God holds people accountable for how they have responded to conscience even if they have not heard, understood, or sought out the Gospel of Jesus. He speaks of God's mercy but has included the condition of seeking that mercy with a humble and contrite heart.

Most Atheists, as opposed to those who have not heard or sought the Gospel, are quite different. They REJECT the claims of church or scripture. They maintain that God cannot and does not exist and therefore would never seek him with a humble and contrite heart. Why would they even be concerned about a Heaven they are certain does not exist?

The Pope knows the difference between those who have doubts, fears, and lack of knowledge as opposed to those who despise and revile the very mention of God.

Nothing in his entire letter gives a free pass to atheists. He speaks of the primacy of faith in the crucified and risen Christ and the believers obligation to represent Him in the world with humility and respect to others so that those see and hear our words and actions of faith will respond with a willing heart that seeks Him.

Concerning the program of Trail Life, one press release points to this gentleman:

"John Burkitt Considered by many to be one of the greatest Boy Scout historians alive today having compared, studied and analyzed every Boy Scout, Cub Scout and Scoutmaster handbook ever published from the original Baden Powell’s “Scouting for Boys†to the present. John has served as the primary editor and author of the first edition of the Adventuring handbook that will be used in the Trail Life USA program." (my note: Adventuring is the program for grades 9-12)

His name rings absolutely no bells for me. I was curious if any of you folks have heard of him.

I think this boils down to adult egos.....

http://www.traillifeusa.com

You will find a chart of the different age programs here:

http://www.traillifeusa.com/resources

They have not published most details yet, but is should be coming out in the weeks ahead.

I wonder what the membership fee is going to be.....

 

Let me see 18 paid staff members say 10k scouts to start with....main guy knocking down 100k, Thinking pay roll of a million bucks....

 

With out donations. That is 100 bucks a head, just to make payroll.

When our Troop started getting intentional 10 years ago about sending the best and brightest Scouts "downstairs" to serve as Den Chiefs to the Pack, it was a total game-changer. Happier Cub leaders, and a super high crossover rate. When that high crossover (boys and parents) occurs Troop membership levels stay constant and Troop program improves which also makes us more attractive to folks from other Troops and Packs. Recruiting doesn't seem to be an issue for us.

Yah, hmmm...

 

I don't reckon they're confused. It's da old BSA don't ask, don't tell policy for youth, coupled with a Christian mission for both youth and adults. I think Sentinel947 has da right of it. Trail Life is tappin' into a population that has been disenchanted with da BSA for a variety of reasons, and the membership change was just the last straw. If they build a good program, maybe a bit less G2SS crazed, maybe a bit less paperwork, maybe a bit more outdoor sportsman focused than da BSA, they could become a bigger draw. Just depends.

 

Close as I can tell da initial group was pretty evangelical, but as they've grown it's become more moderate. Might eventually offer da BSA some competition in many areas in da country.

 

I'd lilove to be a fly on the wall for liablity protection discussions.

 

Yah, not sure why yeh think this is goin' to be that hard, Tampa Turtle. Liability insurance is a commodity item, and da general rules for the game are pretty well known. I don't know who's workin' with 'em, but they seem to have da resources and expertise to handle that sort of routine stuff without a problem.

 

Beavah

Their Statement of Faith which is signed off on by adult leaders and the CO is clear and precise, as opposed to a vague Declaration of Religious Principle. Yes, that Statement is firmly Christian in the sense of that word as it is understood by catholics, protestants, and evangelicals.

Their program was "stormed and formed" by a group of about 50 experienced Scouters with a strong sense of traditional Scouting. I heard in an interview that these folks worked nearly every night since March via virtual campfire on this project. It's not going to be another Awana or Royal Rangers.

Organizationally, they will be very lean and focused on direct service to their members and units.

They have generated a very energized and excited base of potential members.

It is clear that, for a particular market, this could be a very significant and successful youth-serving organization.

Picked up this little gem from their website

 

biologically male children under the age of 18.