Vicki

Journalism sure isn't what it used to be.

Vicki

Very short on detail but the facts that "recreation area rangers" were in the boat and that it's advertised that operating a boat on the lake after dark can be "extremely hazardous" stand out.

If park personnel were in the boat, then we have lost one of our own but it isn't a "Scouting Boating Mishap" - maybe I'm being oversensitive (it's possible!) but it seems to me that that implies scouts were at fault, which they would appear not to be just from this short story.

Vicki

The IT version or the original Cold War version?

Vicki

Sage advice eng.

Vicki

OK, Calico, I can't help myself - a teacup poodle and a handgun? Have you seen the South Park episode where Paris Hilton's little dogs keep committing suicide in the back seat of her limo after listening to her conversation on the phone?

Have to remember to get those spent shells out of my winter coat pocket...

Vicki

Gary, I know some (not by any means all) Missouri Synod Lutheran congregations feel that way. I have heard Wisconsin Synod Lutherans (even more conservative than MO Synod)have that policy but do not know first hand.

The objection is to societies which require their members to make oaths. This is the same objection some Christians have to swearing an oath in court. Matthew 5:37 concerning "let your yes be your yes and your no be your no." Also related to the commandment in Exodus to "not take the name of your Lord in vain."

I'm a Brotherhood member of the OA, so I'm not getting into the right or wrong of the viewpoint, simply providing an explanation.

Vicki

SR540, this is a really good point...

"Bottom line, communication and education is key and even then, you will have SM's who enjoy being master of "their" domain and want to keep the OA out."

SMs like that normally don't send their scouts to NYLT either.

Vicki

Hmmm, Baden, I would not presume to define God. Way above my pay grade:). And I wouldn't presume to put words in Merlyn's mouth, but I think he is an atheist, so you must be referring to some other debate.

Or, is the proposed debate scenario, as it would play out, ridiculous enough to qualify as a Schrodinger's cat?

What lovely synchronicity the universe has at times! I think I shall attempt to grok the wonderful irony of the situation with my nestmate at the first opportunity.

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Hmmm, I thought they just had to be able to open a box...

Of course, that would depend on the box, eh?

Vicki

But Calico, then you have to account for Heidegger's cat!

Less well known than Schrodinger's possibly, but does that mean it doesn't exist?

Vicki (darn typos)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

"V, while we're dithering with semantics, "the way" was what they used to call themselves before everyone else started calling them Christians."

Yep, so Christians weren't the only or the first. The choice of descriptor was intentional, other translations call it "the path" but that can start confusing Taoism and Buddhism which are historically related but not the same. You might say they are really close dance partners.

"A boy need not say the a- word to be shown the door. But, he does need our time and friendship to come to that conclusion in his own right."

Well stated. Nice and succinct.

Vicki

Hey, a belated thank you!

Spent at least a few moments of it pulling a couple of ticks off of an inaccessible part of Son 2's backside after his return from a Philmont prep hike. I'm not going because the crew is a bunch of jocks who selected as brutal a trail as they could find, as I knew they would. As it turns out, I made the right choice - Son 2 is already complaining about the pace one of the dads keeps. Guy has a lot of backpacking experience (as do I) - Son 2 will learn his lesson on pacing (evil grin). Or maybe youthful arrogance and metabolism will carry the day - we'll see.

Reminded him of the value of DEET at least once. Now monitoring for infection.

But it was a good day, overall. Thanks again!

Vicki

Merlyn, even in the quote you pulled from my post, I say not all Buddhists view Buddha in the same way.

As a past student of the way, I believe I am conversant enough with it for these purposes.

Vicki

OGE, the Des Peres is still within its banks, as are most of the rivers right around here. Although i feel sorry for it, it is more a huge drainage ditch. Big plans afoot to reclaim it if the money ever comes available. Just a little south, not so much.

Vicki

Baden, I know what an EBOR is and I know the conditions under which they are held. I have served in two districts in our council. If, when you say DRP you mean the 12th point, which is what I have been talking about, you would lose that bet.

Jrush, you need to study Buddhism a bit more thoroughly. Buddhists do not believe in a creator god. However, the Buddha is venerated as the embodiment of the supreme essence come to earth in at least one, if not more, strains of Buddhism. Not the Christian understanding, nor theist, per se, but definitely recognizing something beyond oneself.

As to defining atheism, I'll defer to my dictionaries for that one.

Vicki

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Well, I'll grant you that St. Louis is sometimes called the furthest north southern city but no matter what you call us, we are not deep South. That said, the 12th point is addressed in Eagle boards I've heard of as well as every BOR for rank that I've sat on over the last several years. This is in both of the aforementioned evangelical Lutheran and secular troops I've served.

Anecdotal evidence only, obviously.

Vicki

No, but stating "absolutely and definitively that there was no God" (OP) does. He didn't "profess not to believe" (OP), he said there was no God.

I've read smt224's post pretty carefully.

In an evangelical Lutheran troop I served, this kid would have been questioned very thoroughly as to his beliefs. I don't think he would have been drummed out. In the secular troop I serve now he would barely raise an eyebrow.

But, again, let's not allow our hairsplitting and rationalization get in the way of understanding national BSA policy. We have two very different threads going here.

Vicki

Ps pack, I realized I didn't answer your query as to my whereabouts. Easter is a pretty big thing in the church, I usually get pretty busy.(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Pack, I don't feel like we missed the point do you? Assuming you and i agree on this one, which i think we do. Basement posted the definition of an atheist a few pages back. Would seem the kid thinks he is an atheist. Hairsplitting won't change that, and rationalizations as to why we shouldn't follow policy are fine, but let's recognize them for what they are and not shoot the messenger.

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Arguing at cross purposes is futile. I freely admit that I have not followed court cases closely, but what I have read agrees with Merlyn's posts. To continue arguing the developmental characteristics of faith does not negate the fact that the BSA does not look kindly on atheists of any age. Nor does it negate the fact that we fuzz up the target considerably with our "let him get older" approach.

While I don't like the scorched earth approach, I do like Merlyn's US Grant quote.

If we enforce the letter of the policy, smt's crossover is out. Not that I'm arguing for that, just calling it like I see it.

Vicki(This message has been edited by vicki)

On that, we can agree, Pack, m'friend.

Vicki

acco - Mother Teresa.

Of great comfort to know even the greatest of the humblest among us had crises of faith.

Vicki

Thanks,Skeptic! That is quite a legacy...

Vicki

What a great idea!! I'm going to forward that to DH (who works Cub camporees, former Pack CC, etc.). He's gonna love it...

Vicki

Interesting thought, Seattle Pioneer. My DH is a goodly part Cherokee, my closest friend is Ojibwa. That, along with extensive travel in the West, still didn't prepare me for what I experienced at a pow wow in Wyoming. I viewed the Ordeal and Brotherhood teams just a little differently after that - I think it might be different if OA members tried to understand the historic role of dance teams in native american culture.

OTOH, I'm pretty sure my comment above is completely unrealistic.

Vicki

Ahhh, this would be where I mention that my DH gave me a sonic screwdriver for Christmas!!

And B5 - truth is a three-edged sword.

Farscape, anyone?

Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)