Twocubdad

I am confused.

 

 

Not necessarily confused, just trying to apply a bunch of policy to a situation for which we have little information, half the story and that coming second or third hand.  If we dig far enough, we'll find some other policy this SM violated.  Perhaps he wasn't wearing official scout socks at the time of the conversation.  Actually, the whole process of asking the troop advancement coordinator for a SMC/BOR is contrary to advancement policy.  Having the Scout ask for a conference or review is adding to the requirements.  The SM is supposed to "know" when a Scout is ready to advance and approach the Scout to conduct a conference.

So let's bring in the big guns.  Involve the district advancement chair.  Or call BSA's National Advancement Abuse hotline at 1-800-RAT-MYSM and bring in the really big dogs.   Let's help the kid document all his grievances as this will surely go up on appeal.  First step is requesting a Board of Review Under Contested Circumstances (I'm sure one of the Scout lawyers can provide the six-digit reference number from the Guide to Advancement). 

Or we could ask ourselves, What is the Scout-like thing to do here?  How would we want to see one of our Eagle Scouts handle this?  What points of the Scout Law apply?  Courteous?  Friendly? 

Still, the easiest solution is for the Scout -- an Eagle Scout -- to simply say to his SM, "Hey, Mr. Smith, I've finished the five merit badges for a palm.  Can I talk to you about how I've demonstrated leadership?" 

But that's not nearly as much fun for the rest of the adults.

He contacted the troop's SMC/BOR coordinator to schedule an SMC with our scoutmaster. When she requested a date from the SM, he told the scout that they had never met to discuss the leadership activity that he had accomplished or whether such activity would even qualify. He then told the scout that they would need to meet discuss this before they could proceed on anything in regards to an SMC.

Once again, this group demonstrates it's bias in assuming the Scoutmaster's sole reason for volunteering is to torment teenagers, bash their fragile egos and deny them the rightful fruits of their efforts. 

Please re-read griffsmom's explanation.  All the SM is saying is the kid needs to have all the requirements signed-off before scheduling a SMC.  Granted, it seems to me to be a better use of time to do that sign-off DURING the SMC, but if the SM wants to break it into two meetings, that's his prerogative.

But maybe the SM is trying to buy himself some time for some reason.  This could be a polite and/or discrete way of saying, "I haven't seen this kid since his EBOR.  He's done nothing to demonstrate leadership and he and I need to discuss it."   There could also be some things going on of which the general troop membership is unaware and the mom is not forthcoming.  I could list dozens of instances over the past 10 years where I discretely put off signing a requirement, meeting with a Scout or parent, or holding a SMC or BOR in order to solve a problem, give a Scout a chance to fix something, or just gather more info.  

I have no idea why the SM in this case would put off the SMC with this Scout.   And neither does anyone else.  So let's not rush the guy off to the gallows quite yet.

Edited to  add:

And I don't understand why the adults are involved in this.  This kid is and EAGLE SCOUT.  Why can't he walk up to his own Scoutmaster and say, "Mr. Smith, I need to talk to you about the leadership requirement for my Eagle Palm"?   Folks want to talk about the troop's communications problems?  Right there is your communications solution.

Jeez!  Try to get away to the beach for a couple days and everything goes to hell around here.

Sorry you're checking out Base.  Varying points of view is a good thing.  As someone here is fond of noting, "all Scouting is local."  We're all in different localities.  I happen to be in one where paying for stuff isn't an issue, but that doesn't mean we don't have challenges.  But we all deal with our Scouts as they come to us.

Best wishes to you and your troop.

You should learn to view ambiguity or even gaping holes in BSA policy and requirements as an opportunity to fill in the blanks to your own best advantage.  There are many, many opportunities.

In our troop, if you are an Eagle Scout you are 17 years old (or rapidly approaching it) and a junior or senior in high school.  You have had ample opportunities to develop and demonstrate leadership over the previous six years or so.  You've both talked the talk and walked the walk.  As such, if you show up regularly, help with the program and set a good example, I would say you've met the leadership requirements for a palm.

That could change for Scouts not similarly situated.

Ya done good.

It amazes me how some people who have the time to write thousands of posts to perfect strangers on an anonymous web site will complain that they have no time for the parent of one of their scouts.

Ummm, probably not a good way to win friends and influence people.

1. In my years here on these forums, I've learned far  more about real Scouting than in all the BSA courses I've taken or taught.  And I can honestly say I've taken every Cub Scout or Boy Scout course offered and taught the majority of them.  This is my roundtable.  I enjoy it because, unlike official district roundtables, there is an open exchange of ideas not just a recitation of the company line.
2. What d-rat said.
3. I'm self-employed so not only is my time my own but so is my office. If I bop in or out a couple times a day I may check email, look at Facebook and check the forums here, it's my nickel. That is as likely to happen at 1:00 am as 1:00 pm.
4. What I do with my time is no one's bloody business.

And I disagree with the comparison to a conference with a teacher.  Teachers are not volunteers (close to it, but technically not volunteers.)  Every conference I've ever had with anyone from my sons' schools have been immediately following dismissal or during the teacher's open period during the day.  And I understand meeting with me after school may mean the teacher had to grade papers on his/her own time.  But still....  This request would be more akin to requesting a teacher's conference on a Sunday afternoon or at 9:30 at night, following the school band concert.  I wouldn't dream of even asking.

But back to the OP;

Mom in this case is clueless.  Possibly she's setting up the SM (not likely) but more likely she's just clueless that a there are better channels for a couple simple questions on her son's advancement AND/OR clueless as to the inappropriateness and discourtesy of her request.

I would definitely meet with her.  I'll talk Scouting with anyone who will listen (and you can make that item #5 on the above list.)  It's clear she needs a better understand of how the program works and for that reason alone, I'll meet with her.  The meeting will be my opportunity for a little egimacation. 

But I will limit my exposure.  First, I would send an additional email pressing for more information on her questions.  More than likely they are going to be basic questions which can be answered to her satisfaction via email. (And then I can spend my entire face-to-face with her discussing program.)  Or if she wants to know why PL Tommy or ASM Smith didn't sign off on a requirement, I need to talk to them before we meet.   If it really seems like an hour-long topic, I may suggest a cup of coffee sometime other than troop meeting night. Or if it's something dicey, I may need to pull in a second adult, my CC or COR.    But if I'm unconvinced of her motives or feel she's wasting my time, I'll schedule our meeting a half-hour BEFORE the troop meeting and leave myself an escape hatch.

Something I will add is our troop does to avoid this all together is a fairly extensive parent training prior to crossover.  Actually we do it twice, once on the Webelos campout in November and again on consecutive troop meeting nights following crossover.   If they attend, we rarely have parents who don't understand the program.  It's not uncommon to have one who doesn't buy in to the it, but that's another matter.  But if this is a situation of a parent asking dumb questions because the wouldn't attend our orientation sessions, THAT'S wasting my time.

The new administration at the troop I served is currently looking at restarting a  Venturing crew, too.  They're in an odd place in that over the next couple years they will have 5-6 scouts turning 18 prior to their senior year in high school.  In this situation, Venturing isn't a reaction to a failed older scout program, but to a very successful one.  We've got a bunch of 18y.o.s who want to stick with the program.

Problem is, there is NO enthusiasm for a real crew, meaning girls, separate meetings, separate leaders and a committee.  Everyone -- Scouts and adults -- would be perfectly happy running a venture patrol, letting the 18y.o.s tag participate as they like and calling it good.  I've suggested registering the 18y.o.s as college reserves and moving on. 

Yes.  The local YMCA agreed to have a Scout build a bus shelter for the Y's activities bus.  In order to pull a building permit for the shelter, the Y had to provide proof of insurance.  They knew that going in.  But between they agree to the project and when it began, some new administrator type came in and decided they didn't want to risk their premiums increasing.  Right.  A major, metropolitan YMCA group with tens of millions of dollars in assets is going to have their insurance increased or dropped over a 8x8 shelter.   Bottom line:  they didn't keep their commitment.

Unfortunately, and despite a lot of effort to help the Scout out and redirect the project, he never made Eagle.

Take the time to watch this ad from Scouts South Africa   It's amazing:

http://www.littlethings.com/scouts-ad-life-saver/?utm_source=loud&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=misc

This relates to a couple current threads, including the "Where Have We Failed?"  We've failed by not communicating our purpose as clearly and effectively as this ad does.  Take this same message and apply a thousand others ideals and skills we teach -- leadership, citizenship, fitness, service.  We need to be targeting families and parents who imagine their son saving their daughter from drowning.  Or standing up to a school yard bully, leading a group through some challenge.  Who are these families?  Well, all of them. And that's the point. 

You're right.  The letters are far more of a PIA than any illumination they bring to the board of review. 

 In my opinion, the real answer to your question is prior to 2011, the year the major overhaul of the advancement policies were released, there were no standards a all for handling letters.  Apparently it was common to require the Scout to manage collecting the letters and to hold up his Eagle until they were all submitted.  That was the case in our council.  My opinion is that national "declined" (a polite way of saying "lacked the cajones") to implement a standard policy.  They left to each council how to handle the letters with only two main provisions -- that the Scouts can't handle the letters themselves and that a lack of letters cannot hold up the process.  Frankly, that's not a bad trade off.   

I may be alone here, but that would strike me as an odd request and would raise a number of red flags.  We've certainly had visitors on campouts, generally friends of current members or occasionally Scouts looking to transfer.  But a wanting to camp with us because you're unsatisfied with your existing troop, but not unwilling to make a change is a bit odd.  In addition to having a discussion with the Scout and parent, I'd be making a call to the other SM, too.  Frankly, I'd want to know what the heck is going on, but also as a courtesy to him.

How is that going to work anyway?  Is you son just going to breeze in and show up for the campout?  How will he participate in the patrol planning and effort which goes into a campout?  Taking his turn to buy food?  Cleaning and maintaining patrol gear?  Scout troops aren't camping clubs or guide services.  The purpose of the outdoor program is the development of leadership, teamwork and being responsible for and to the rest of the patrol.  How does anyone do that just showing up for the campout now and again?  How does your son contribute to the other troop?  How long before the other Scouts tire of him?

You wrote that a second weekly troop meeting didn't work for your family.  Well sure.  I don't know many of us who could swing a second set of meetings.  Your son and your family needs to pick one troop and make it work.  I don't understand the internal politics of LDS wards, but if you feel you are required to stay there, you and your son can either accept the program which exists or work to fix it. 

Fred, from the G2A:

It is emphasized to us by the council advancement committee that the candidate may is not responsible for ANY follow-up in collecting the letters.  (Personally, I think it is a point of courtesy for the Scout to make a friendly reminder, rather than someone unknown to the reference calling and asking why you haven't responded -- and thus my rule that the Scout makes one  follow up call.)  Secondly, we are required to submit the letters UNOPENED, in their original envelopes, to the council.  A couple times when I've inadvertently opened letters jumbled in with the rest of my mail, I was the council paper pushers asked me to put it in another envelope with an explanation of why the original was opened, seal and sign it.  Sheesh. 

But I like your interpretation better, Fred.  If it comes up again, I'll quote you.

This is one area BSA has made WAY too complicated.  Our council has pushed the responsibility off onto the troops.  Hmmm.  What if we don't accept the responsibility?

I'm always amazed at how difficult it is to get letters from references.  You would think most folks would be very happy to provide a letter and would mail it in short order.  But it's usually a huge PIA.  Far more trouble that any value the always-positive letters add to the process.

The process here is the Scout asks the reference for a letter.  We provide the Scouts template for an envelope so they are identifiable when returned to the SM (I've inadvertently opened a couple when they come in plain envelopes -- OH NO! A rule violation!)  If the letters are forthcoming, I ask the Scouts to make one follow-up contact with the reference.  I know the Scouts aren't supposed to do that, but too bad.  Still no letter I make one phone.  Then we submit the application short a letter.  That's where it gets fun.

The folks at the Scout shop are trained NOT to accept Eagle apps which don't have the required 5 or 6 letters.  That only happened to me once.  I then walked over to the shelf, got a copy of the Guide to Advancement and turned to the above pages.  I then asked the person to please put in writing that they had refused to accept the Scout's application because of a lack of references.  I told them I need the statement to include with our appeal to national.  Word spread pretty quick and I don't get much of a hassle the last time it or two.

I wear them -- 3, 7, 1 (explorer) and 10+8.  I put them on my uniform and forget them, wash and all.  Every once in a while one goes missing.  No biggie.  Like square knots, I find them to be good conversation starters especially with curious younger boys.  It's a good opportunity to talk about different levels of Scouting and the opportunities which lie ahead. 

Scouts can register in multiple troops as long as they are in different councils.   We a Scout who moved out of state, joined a troop there but maintained his registrations.  He was a couple MBs and a project short of Eagle and wanted to earn it with our troop.  He earned the MBs through the other troop.  His project was approved through our troop and council but the project was conducted through the new troop.  His EBOR was through our troop and council -- we even did the BOR via Skype.

So----

 

Do horn players do better kissing pretty girls?

You're darn tootin' we do.

Look, Bugler is a bit of a different POR.  Most PORs can be attempted by a scout with absolutely no experience at the task.  Being a "leader" is a rather ethereal thing.  With absolutely no experience, training or understanding, a newly-minted patrol leader can show up and say, okay guys, put your backpacks on and follow me.  VOILA! He's leading the patrol.  But a bugler needs to be able to play a reasonable rendition of assembly (same tune they play to bring the horses to the starting gate at a race) in order to get the troops to assembly.

I played trumpet for about 10 years in school, including college.  I've counseled Bugling MB and volunteer for Bugles Across America.  I tell potential buglers they need to be able to comfortably play a high G on a trumpet or coronet to play bugle calls.  In my experience that's a kid who has had at least two years on the trumpet.  If you have the lip to play a high G, I can teach you the bugle calls.  Otherwise, we're wasting each other's time.

By the book, (meaning the Guide to Advancement) and kid who struggles for three months as Troop Bugler without playing a note has completed three months of his POR and should get partial credit.  But has he really?  I think that's the point at which a Scoutmaster has a conversation with the scout about doing what is right and about really earning what he is due.  Did you really serve three months as bugler or did you spend three months discovering that you can't really do the job?

I loved the old TM desktop/ftp version.  It was infinitely flexible. If it didn't include a report I wanted, it was fairly easy to create my own.  A couple years ago, all the IT geniuses on the troop committee decided ftp is an antiquated technology and we needed a mobile format.  So we upgraded to TMmobile.  It sucks.  It has a fraction of the reports I use and very difficult for me to get into.  Worst of all, the old desktop version doesn't work right. One of the geniuses is the admin and only they can get into the data the way I used to be able to.  And I have never, not once, found the need to get into the system via my phone.

Now, in my retirement as SM, I'm probably going to be the advancement chairman and will have the responsibility of straightening out all the records the geniuses have screw up over the past two years. 

Not every upgrade is an improvement.

I've only sent one kid home from summer camp in 12 years (extreme behavioral melt down and assaulting another scouts).  But if I were in a situation where a camp director over ruled my decision to send a kid home, the CD would suddenly find himself with a new roommate.  Boys don't go to summer camp, troops do.  The Scouts in our troop are there under our supervision. 

Frankly, of all the CD's I've worked with, I can't imagine any of them not deferring to the SMs.  However, if a CD and SM disagree on sending a kid home, I think the kid goes.  If the troop doesn't like it, the whole troop can start packing.  Just because you paid a camp fee doesn't mean you aren't still a guest.

My biggest year was over 350 campers, 125 staff and over 100 siblings.  All in one week.

I have no interest in playing bureaucratic BSA games anymore.  File all the reports you want.  Here's how we handle it. 

When the sign up sheets for summer camp come out in late winter, I take the list of MBs offered and sit down with a big bottle of Witeout.  The scouts never see the MBs they don't see -- citizenships, personal fitness, communication.  Why the hell do you want to spend the afternoon sitting on your bunk writing an essay on your rights and responsibilities while your buddies are at the shotgun range?

Our philosophy is summer camp is a time for the Scouts to bond, have a good time with their mates in a Scout-like environment and build memories.  I don't give a rat's rear if they complete a single requirement -- advancement is totally secondary.  That philosophy has been very successful for us.  .  Consequently, it the rule that our Scouts attend summer camp six, seven, even eight years, if their birthdays allow.  Obviously that means they STAY IN SCOUTING six, seven, eight years.  Routinely our scouts go to camp without signing up for ANY MBs or take their favorites over and again. A couple years ago our crew from Philmont landed about 11:30 Saturday night and didn't get home until after 1:00 am.  Yet they were all packed and ready to go to summer camp the next morning at 11 am.

You're probably right.  Anytime I've had a difficult boss or client I've always found it better to just move on rather than try to work things out.  Bail and shop for a better venue is the life lesson I'd want my son to take from the situation.

I don't disagree with what you guys are saying.  One of my pet peeves which I'll add to the list of complaints is that the people in orange jumpsuits picking up trash on the roadside have been sentenced to "community service." 

Our troop does a huge food drive every winter.  We collect ballpark 15,000 pounds of food.  It is a huge undertaking which we spend months organizing.  Running it is considered a position of responsibility for the fellow who takes it on (as a SM-approved leadership project).

It sounds to me that you ran into a perfect storm of summer doldrums.  Folks out of town, a not-too interesting program, disorganized beneficiary, yadda, yadda, yadda.   I know it's frustrating.  It takes the same effort to plan a program whether 3 or 30 kids show up. On the other hand, folks are voting with their feet.  Families make a decision to do something else independently of the others.  It's not as if they all got together and decided to blow off Scouts that night.  But I think from time to time it's good for the SM to vent a little to the committee and parents and remind them you are volunteering your time regardless.  But they owe you the courtesy of letting you providing feedback so the troop can adjust accordingly. 

Oh, and a sign-up sheet would help.  

Always amazed at how fast this group is to throw a fellow Scouter under the bus based on one side of the story.

Consider this:

Read together, the intent of requirements 6. 7 and 8 is to show the Scouts how to develop an exercise program which focuses on strengthening their weaknesses.  It's not just go out and exercise, its test yourself, develop a plan based on the test, work the plan, test again, modify the plan, work the modified plan and then see where you end up. 

While I understand that by the book you can do the 12 weeks at age 11 and take the final test seven years later, that misses the overall grand lesson of the program.  No surprise BSA literature is less than clear and somewhat contradictory.

How about your son go back to the second counselor -- a young guy who clearly got a lot out of the program and is now trying to give back, who you guys derisively label "Super Scout" -- and reiterate that it hasn't been five weeks plus since he finished the exercise plan, but that he has in fact, continued exercising through those additional weeks and he HAS gone above and beyond the requirements.   And I don't think it out of bounds for the SM to offer a friendly aside to the counselor that it was rather unfair of the first counselor to dictate one date for the final tests with no other options for a make-up. 

Given the opportunity, most folks try to do the right thing.

You should have mooned him.

(My boy was too busy practicing his rifle shooting to go for Order of the Arrow.  I told him that was fine- he can do that later, whenever or if he wants.)

'Atta girl!