TiaScout

First things first: yes, CHOCOLATE is involved in several GS awards! Especially some that are outside the book. Look at VA Skyline Council's "Sweet Shoppe," for example. Mmmm. Anyway.

Don't know about Frontier Girls, except what their website says. But this June, I did have two of my teen Girl Scouts, including one of my daughters, participate in a very nice summer day camp run by our local American Heritage Girls. The ladies were terrific and welcoming -- even inviting my girls to wear their own GSUSA uniforms on a field trip. IMO, they demonstrated just what they stand for. We won't be joining them, because we're quite happy in GSUSA, but I'm delighted they are growing and doing well here. Some girls are scouting who otherwise wouldn't. That merits a thumbs up.

My basic attitude about the newer US scouting organizations for girls is a "Big Tent" view: there's plenty of room for all kinds of approaches to scouting. So let's not bad-mouth each other, but instead focus on getting girls outside, and opening the doors for some fun, some service and some learning.

I do admit that GSUSA has been getting groovier by the minute. Though I am a happy camper in general, yes, there are days when my eyeballs roll skyward and I fear they will get stuck. The never-ending jargon changes. The appeal to cool. The lousy Cadette handbook which suggests girls talk with a trusted adult if they "feel the need" to take drugs -- but which doesn't show any knots. The super-long footnote about God with its asterisk permanently glued to the Promise. The crummy electronic-only leader magazine. The wishy-washy, yackety-yack awards that don't spell out requirements. And so forth. Sure, I understand some of the complaints that ultimately led to separate groups. Heck, just compare scoutstuff.org and the GSUSA shop.

But three things keep me firmly on board: (1) there is NO organization I'm going to agree with 100 percent, on religion or politics or anything, 'cause frankly, I'm really opinionated and cantankerous and always think I'm right; (2) you can have an EXCELLENT, active troop for girls if you apply yourself, get trained, focus on developing girl leadership, and don't whine about silly stuff; and (3) GSUSA and my wonderful local council (GS of the Nation's Capital) have lots of resources for girls.

I'm very lucky to be involved with a diverse but dedicated group of scouts and parents. And, frankly, there are members in each of my GS troops who would not fit with either Frontier or AHG. I believe some would actually be unwelcome. But all have a home with GSUSA -- and YES, they learn real scouting, say grace at meals and have flag ceremonies.

Just 'cause I'm happy with GSUSA, though, and don't personally see a need for separate girl scouting organizations, I do wish Frontier & AHG well. STILL a free country!

HobCawChaos asked "Have you asked your GS Council's field director for your area to recommend a troop?"

Good advice! There are lots of GS troops who do outdoors skills, camping, high adventure and more. Your Field Director probably knows who they are, because they need to send in paperwork when they do high adventure, camping or overnights. Word gets around. You can also visit a couple of teen troops to check them out. Nothing wrong with looking for a good fit. When someone asked Juliette Gordon Low "What should the girls do?" she replied "What the girls want to do!"

There might be a small troop out there who is just WAITING for another gal like you to do knives and fire with them. Don't give up! A girl with similar interests (and a bit of Boy-Scout-brother-envy also) joined our troop last year, after thinking she'd never find girl buddies to camp with. Good times.

So, you don't have to wait for scouting fun until you're 14 and can join a Venture Crew. A lot of girls do both!

Thank you, everybody! The girls had the best time today!

For anyone diving in archives, the advice given in this thread was very helpful (particularly the link to BSA's "Shooting Sports for Cub Scouts," kind of goggles to use, and distances for range layout). I used kidney beans, three pairs of Z87 glasses of different sizes, and had girls use a table at the shooting position. Backstop was big, grommeted tarp strung between trees and staked in ground. Targets were recycling junk (plastic Coke bottles were the best) stacked up on the orange crates I transported gear in. The wrist rocket slingshots were the FS1 folding ones by Trumark (US made) -- see http://www.slingshots.com/html/sling-shots-fs1.html I got extra bands, but note that if one busts, and you follow the directions to replace it, you must wait overnight before using. None of ours busted.

For my GSUSA buddies, the only paperwork was hi-ad permission slips & council notification.

The girls' questions? "Can we shoot each other?" "Can we eat the beans?" and "When can we start?"

The vendor I used was Netlink Enterprises via Amazon. Very happy. But you can also order direct from the maker at slingshots.com

AIFansome got it. It's part of LNT. Here's what the Program Director in GS Central Texas said:

M.I.C.E. stands for Minimal Impact Camping Experience. It is what is not called Leave No Trace.

MICE - Minimal Impact Camping Experience

Girl Scouts of all ages should learn and practice MICE skills. Learning to live lightly on the land and leave no trace of your presence after an activity.

As we look at activities we could do in the out of doors - we should always remember to practice the MICE concept. We can do this by:

Planning Ahead

o Check for restrictions on number of people allowed in a group.

o Are ground fires permitted? Do you need a permit?

o Plan meals so packaging and fuels are minimal.

o Reduce the need for burning wood, by using other fuel sources or

food that require little or no cooking.

At the Site

o Use existing fire circles and remove any unburned wood before you

leave.

o Avoid trampling undergrowth by staying in established sites

Respecting the Land

o Remember to stay on designated trails.

o Use only biodegradable soap and dispose of wash water at least 100

feet away from any water source.

o Take any trash or garbage with you.

Appreciating the Wild

o Don't pick wild flowers or other vegetation. Leave them for

others to enjoy.

o Don't feed any wild animals. Don't disturb their environment;

take your scraps with you.

GSdad, you made me giggle. "Hi, I'm Tia and my husband's a man. Any questions?"

>It's not like when other leaders

>volunteer there is announcement

>made that they are hetrosexuals.

Sounds like you have lots of good opportunities here and you're backed up by the levels above you in terms of non-discrimination. But, just a thought, different troops legitimately have different characters and styles and cultural mixes, and sometimes it's beneficial to let prospective new members know ahead of time what makes YOURS special. If it's not their cup of tea, you've let them know instead of surprising them.

I let people checking out my troops know, for example, that we have a mix of religions in our membership, even though we meet at two Christian churches, including my own. I think this is especially important for my target audience, homeschoolers, because many of us have strong religious views, and some of us come from backgrounds where we may expect more homogeneity than my troops have.

I let prospects know, in every first-contact email and phone call, that we have Protestants, Roman Catholics, a Jewish family, some unaffiliated believers and some agnostics. Why? Because four years ago, before I was a leader, I saw a family quit a very nice troop and flee in horror, after they finally noticed one of the leaders and her daughters substituting the word "gods" for "God" in the promise. They had attended for a couple of months! Sadly, the mom had missed the initial parent meeting that explained the GSUSA policies about God in the promise and religion in general. She would also have heard what the troop members' and leaders' various religions happened to be. She had made a wrong assumption that the troop was explicitly Christian in orientation, and honestly felt she could not continue with us. I suggested American Heritage Girls to her as a Christ-centered alternative; but don't know if she ever made it there, because she didn't answer my note. Hope so. Her girls were sweet and liked scouting.

Anyway, I don't know how precisely you'd let prospective families know you have a family with two moms, without sounding like you're gossiping. But it might not be a bad idea to be simple and direct and positive. Setting a clear tone of respect and NOT surprising people gives them a chance to prepare their own children, should they feel the need. Or flee, if they must. Actually, in your shoes, I would ask for guidance from the moms in question. Surely they've been down that road before, and will probably have some good insight. Plus, consulting with them avoids the issue of gossip entirely.

My two cents.

Thanks, all! Good stuff, esp. the measurements and link from SSScout to that wonderful Cub Scout Shooting Sports Book. I'm having BSA envy again. Holy cow, the book even gives adults a script to use for BBs: Point to the muzzle and say, This is the muzzle. It is the end the BB shoots out. Page 41 starts with advice on slingshots & wrist rockets.

For those who wondered, GSUSA's Safety-Wise does not prohibit slingshots; rather, shooting projectiles AT people is a no-go (e.g. no paintball); see p. 80. Following the checkpoints, I'll let parents know ahead of time and make them giggle with yet another electronic permission slip that I've marked "high adventure" (yes, I do that for campfires and stream cleanups, perhaps silly, but them's the rules). I'll follow the advice here with a simple marked safety perimeter and waiting area, and let them shoot in pairs. I know these girls and their families very well and look forward to them reviving me with CPR someday -- so yeah, I trust them with knives, fire and even slingshots, provided I know what to teach them and warn them about! (What I don't trust is the slingshots themselves, until I know what they do and have a clue. I figure dog food or elastic bands in the face can put a dent in your day. So fun times ahead for me and my daughters in the back yard with a wrist rocket, while I practice.)

As for state laws, we're in Virginia, Land of Guns. (The VA Code actually does mention slingshots under the concealed weapons law, but whatever we use won't be loaded nor concealed!)

Last question for now: can anybody recommend a BRAND of manufactured wrist rocket? Or good instructions for making sturdy, homemade slings?

Thank you! I'll think "things that go DING." Tia

Perhaps late to respond to this post, but this is a big issue for us. Getting rid of unapproved food is on our "check-in" checklist at every campout. So far, I've never had to confiscate any, because we make it clear on the packing list what NOT to bring. In each GS troop I work with, we have more than one scout with severe or life-threatening food allergies -- that's Reason #1. Reason #2 is critters. Reason #3 is that Ms. Tia will NOT have squished candies and gum in her tents, or the council rentals.

Tee hee. I'm now remembering a certain young man, many years ago, who woke my husband with his screaming that he was being attacked by a "bear." There he was, laced up in his hammock between two trees, with a white-tailed deer trying to eat the contraband chocolate bar he had in his pocket. Right through the fabric. Bwahahahaha. The kid lived.

In our troops, the girls help plan menus, so everybody has SOMETHING she likes to eat among the offerings (even if she decides to eat just apples for one meal; her affair) and so that everybody is SAFE. Much more trouble than just doing it for them, but they learn SO much. Takes half a meeting, LOL. But they learn to be considerate and caring, and to be a sister to every Girl Scout. And no emergency transports or deer incidents.

Any suggestions for setting up a safe, fun, dog kibble shoot? A BSA friend told me about wrist rockets. I think my Girl Scout troop (a dozen girls, 12-16) would LOVE this for a scout challenge at our opening meeting next month. I've seen a couple small photos in Scouting and one You Tube video showing Cubs shooting wrist rockets with those inexpensive safety goggles on. Otherwise, I have no clue. Gotta test drive ideas before I teach girls. Thoughts?

(1) Best but cheapest brand of slingshot? Amazon reviews say $5-8 models are lousy. True?

(2) Better to make our own? Materials? Costs?

(3) Are cheesy, clear plastic eye protectors, like the ones in my tool box, enough?

(4) Should I hang disposable pie plate targets from a limb? Or put cans on a stump?

(5) Gallery distances?

(6) Actual experience with bio-degradation of dog food?

I don't even know what to ask. If anyone's got a resource to point me to, or advice, I'd love to hear it.

Tia

Anybody? I've not been able to find any explanations of the MICE acronym (mentioned in the council's own IPs for Outdoor Cooking in GS Central Texas and GS Central Maryland).

I've got one daughter in the two-troops situation now. In the past, I had heard of a couple other scouts doing it. Not knowing their reasons, it left me a bit puzzled, but hey, different strokes, you know? Then several events led us down a similar path. It's working fine this year, my younger daughter's first Junior year.

One troop meets 1st and 3rd Wednesdays; the other, 2nd and 4th Wednesdays. They do different sorts of things. The troop I co-lead in a different town offers camping, officer roles, and the structure to get badgework and signs done. The second troop, nearer our home, is much more low-key, but gives my daughter some extra, indoor activities with nice girls. I invited the latter to come meet at the same place and time as my older daughter's Cadette/Senior troop, to give them some support and multi-level opportunities. So, my daughter's essentially been their permanent guest member this year.

No conflicts so far. The other leader and I communicate well. We're keeping it straight by having our shared girl enrolled in her original troop as her "main" troop, whose numbers and crest she wears, and whose cookies she sells -- mainly because Cookie Moms and I couldn't figure out a non-crazy-making way to divide that activity up. She contributes to her secondary troop financially via dues, cookie booths and a family donation to make up for the cookies she could/would have sold on her own. Earned awards are presented via her primary troop, except for participation patches that relate to the second troop, plus an extra badge or two she's doing on her own. Her records are kept with her main troop.

Anyway, next year should be interesting, as we shuffle around leaders. I'm leaving leadership of my daughter's primary Junior troop in the capable hands of my current co-leader and other moms, so I can start leading the troop where my younger daughter's been visiting. The other leader, who's been on her own for some time, is happy at the prospect of being a troop mom for a change. Anyway, that will mean more activities and camping for them, so more chances for schedule conflicts. But since my daughter is so attached to her old troop, socially, I've decided to give her the choice about staying. Luckily, we have good friends in both troops and can work out rides and such. And, not having meetings every single week makes it feasible.

Seems to me that dual troops with BSA would be ever so much harder, with the record-keeping and advancement.

Deary me, this post got way too long. Sorry 'bout that.

But I am interested in other other folks' experiences with the multiple troop thing. My own kid might not be the only one, come next year.

Because all our troops meet in multi-level settings with affiliated homeschool troops, I admit there are weeks when it gets a bit confusing. A recent patch order was divided among five troops to save shipping, but not sanity. Different colored lids on the plastic bins, yup.

Tia

I'm interested in hearing how other leaders work the situation where a girl belongs to two troops. I've heard of a couple situations like that -- though all but one, I think, were enrollments in a BSA Venture Crew while continuing with a GSUSA troop. Anyone?

Tia in Alexandria, VA

I see your post is about boys, so I don't know if these ideas fly for BSA. Besides cookies, our older girls have done wreath sales and gift wrapping for tips at book stores this year.

Can you do a badge day, where you charge a reasonable fee for younger participants to come and complete a badge not normally offered elsewhere? A great way to raise money in a service-oriented way. Advertising, packing them in, and building a good reputation with repeated events seem to be keys to success.

>In BSA, I can find a lesson plan for the whole year, if I want it.

>Do the girls have something similiar?

Lesson plans? Hahahahaaha! Ha. ROFL. Gasp for air. Hurk! Okay, thumping myself on the chest and regaining control. Some regional councils offer suggestions for the first four meetings. That's it, in terms of "lesson plans." Every troop is very, very different from every other one because of this. Girl Scouts can look like anything. Which can be GREAT, or terrible. GREAT if you're doing activities the girls love and learn from as they progressively take over the leadership of the troop -- whatever those activities may be and however you decide to get there; or TERRIBLE, if harried and directionless volunteers flounder, no matter what the content. Either way, camping is optional. Sigh. But different strokes. So, yes, tell your friend to VISIT troops, don't worry about committing until she finds a good match, and be prepared to help lead.

Why no lesson plans? BSA-style "advancement" is not a concept in Girl Scouts. You can come in at any level and leave at any level. It's strictly based on age and grade level. The highest awards are all independent and not linked. So, for example, I have a young lady in an older troop who is 16 and a first-time scout. She loves the idea of earning the Gold Award (the Girl Scout parallel to earning Eagle). It's not a problem that she's a newbie. She's just got to get her act together, get a good adult advisor, and follow the myriad steps in the correct order, before high school graduation. No harder for her than another girl, who started as a Daisy in Kindergarten.

Did you know that you could have a FABULOUS year as a Girl Scout, and never earn a single badge? Or, a girl could be a real badge hound and make sure that everything she does in the troop, and all her life activities are tied to requirements that allow her to simply smother her uniform with stuff until it's so heavy she would drown if she fell out of a canoe. Either path is A-okay in Girl Scouts. And a good leader will facilitate, either way. But no lesson plans will get you there.

The brand new "Journeys" curricula do contain lesson plans and are tied to awards you can earn and stick on the uniform. So far, there's one for each level (Daisy, Brownie, Junior, Cadette, Senior, Ambassador). A Juliette (lone scout like the niece mentioned in an earlier post) could work on the Junior one over the course of a year, and might enjoy it, but she'd need to consult with a troop, group or friends to complete some of the activities. Note that Journeys are NOT traditional scouting topics, but rather focus on social skills, visualizing a better world and making an art project about it, conducting needs assessment and service project development and evaluation . . . all very talk-y, workbook-y, consultant-y stuff. Not knots. Not bears. Not how to handle your period on a climbing trip. Though who knows what they'll come up with in future years. I'm NOT counting on outdoor education, however!

>Does GS offer leader training regularly?

Training varies by regional councils. In ours, it goes something like this. You decide you'd like to stick your neck out and lead. If you're smart, you find a friend or hook up with an existing troop. Either way, you fill out an online volunteer application, giving three people as references. They electronically file their ratings of various aspects of your leadership ability, and answer whether they think you're fit to work with children. Then you take the "101" class online, which essentially shows that you read the essential policies -- our equivalent of youth protection and so forth. Then you go somewhere LIVE to take the program level training for your group: Juniors, for instance. 2-3 hours in a church basement or somebody's home. Experienced leaders moving to new levels, often because their daughters are bridging up, are mixed with newbies, at least in this council. Topics include basic policies, suggestions for behavioral management, and some leader peer discussion. Then poof! You're done. A new troop leader.

Technically, you might not even finish that program-level training before you start working with girls, though of course they urge you to do so. As for other training, the unmotivated leader can easily wriggle out of it, provided she can get another troop parent to take First Aid and CPR. No, wait. Heck, she doesn't even need to con anybody into THAT if she's willing to stay in a school cafeteria and do Michael's crafts at every meeting! Urg.

But to go nearly anywhere outside that meeting room, you need a trained First Aider. And to camp, you need a First Aider plus a separate person who is a trained "camp qualified" adult. That takes about four hours in two classroom sessions, then an overnight with adults. Subsequent updates can be handled online.

Yes, there are GS troops that have never camped. (I hear that a few brave ones among those have actually gone "hotel camping." Yes, there are patches for it -- but before everyone swallows their canteen cap, they're just participation patches, worn on the back of the sash or vest, NOT actual earned awards. Unlike Couch Potato. Look it up.)

So . . . this is why it helps a new leader to buddy up with troop leaders (called "advisors" at the teen levels) who know what they are doing. They will encourage a new leader to get all the training offered by the council, plus whatever's out there in the wider world. Our council offers loads of great stuff. I've taken knots, camping, stream activities, night-time activities, and more. And dragged others along. Almost none of my council training was wasted. And everything has been free, except First Aid, CPR and wilderness First Aid.

>Her daughter is seven, which I figure is an easy-to-manage age

>for a semi-organized parent-leader.

I strongly recommend a parent committee approach. That's the best encouragement for a new leader with younger girls! Not going it alone.

The manic spiel goes like this. Tell your friend to talk fast before they get wise.

"Hi! This is a parent participation troop! Not so much a drop-and-run troop. Nope! See my cheerful grin? Yes, and before you run away, 'cause my finger is in your buttonhole, woops, sorry 'bout that, here's the calendar, which we like to call the duty roster! You'll need to fill in x number of slots, while I stand here with a big, WELCOMING grin on my face, wait, here's the indelible pen, because there are y meetings and z number of families and you can do the math! Hey, if you can't be a parent helper in the room during meetings, because you work three jobs, heck I work four, so I understand, anyway don't worry -- 'cause there are several seasonal jobs listed on the reverse! All are important! If you take Cookie Mom, then you're off the hook for ALL the parent helper slots! And, for your convenience, I've printed the roster with phone numbers at the bottom, so that if you're ever unable to fill your duty slot, YOU CAN ARRANGE ahead of time to trade with another parent and let me know when you have. Dads are welcome, too! Gosh, won't we have fun! WAIT, come back! Guards! Guards! Seize her!"

Finally, you asked why there would be waiting lists. Answer: not enough people to stick their necks out to be leaders. I actually heard of an entire Brownie TROOP, that has girls and even a Cookie Mom, but no leader. This puzzles me, because I'm thinking, er, don't all those girls have RELATIVES? Who'd like them to be in scouts? Hello?

But then I'm just a weird woman who got married, then had the kids (on purpose, even) and stuck my neck out to be a troop leader. And found all these other parents who like their kids and fight to go camping with them.

Go figure.

Tia in Virginia

PS: Another big difference: no sponsoring organizations, like BSA has.

Neither our Junior troop nor our Cadette/Senior troop is using the Journeys this year.

Honestly, it's not like we have to LOOK for stuff to do! We're too busy working on troop and individual awards, service projects, activities, trips and troop governance, to pile on any more "stuff." For us -- and I recognize that every troop's mileage may vary -- Journeys would only be another talky-talky, homework-y, form-filling THING for the girls and adults to do. Not to mention more books to buy. Our time is limited, our funds are limited, and the girls would rather get outside and LIVE life, than assess and plan and talk and consult and journal and evaluate until the cows come home or our beloved organization comes up with yet MORE paperwork. No matter how meaningful or well-thought-out or beautifully based on the latest research.

So, instead of Journeys, we are canoeing, hiking, dancing, packing lunches for the homeless, camping, making kites, telling stories, and trying to get big packages of paper towel rolls into the tallest tree behind our meeting place and back down again.

I should say that, like a good scout, I did attend the Journeys training sessions. I flipped through the books there, and then read through them again, with more attention, at the scout store. Though turned off by the incredibly trendy candy coating, I found that the chewy inside did contain some good chunks. And, yeah, I know Journeys will get squeezed into the Bronze/Silver/Gold Awards soon, just like they did with Studio 2B, but there's no need to jump on the bandwagon now, to beat the holiday rush.

Rant over. Dear me.

I can see where Journeys could be great for new troops, younger levels, older Juliettes, or maybe just if the activities grabbed you and you didn't have other fish to fry. If I were a new Daisy leader, I think I might cheer at finally having a curriculum! I've always marvelled at the suggestions for four meetings, followed by . . . silence. So different from, say, Tigers! But that's the blessing and curse of the open-ended thing.