theysawyoucomin'

Yes John I agree, The last time we had a fun shoot I wanted to segregate the boys into two groups, who has the Rifle MB and who doesn't? I had the less experienced boys watch the RSO run the range. The "virgins" watched while the more experienced boys shot.

The only other thing I might add:

Both Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts are really good at correcting each other.

I always ask the boys, "Who is allowed to call for a cease fire on the range when they see something unsafe?"

They know that range safety is everyone's job.

After getting the offender to stop offending and getting all the boys back to the line I might say,"Why did I just correct Toby for stepping up to the line?"

Letting the boys say it reinforces it.

I'm still convinced Charles Schulz had it right when the teacher's voice sounded like a badly played trumpet.

Another thought which makes it 2 things to add not 1.

The boys want to do a good job, they know what lead can do at high velocities, they know they will get booted from the range if they mess up. They are at a heighted stress level already. I am sure they breathe a sigh of relief when the range is secure and everybody leaves focusing on the fun and not the risk.

Let's remember a round would not be discharged simply because the offender crossed the line to pick something up. It does not mention that this was a repeat violation or the boy was being difficult, a bullet rolled off the table and the boy thought more about it being on the deck than he thought about stepping over the line.

This does not absolve him of the safety violation.

Nobody cares if the RSO has been shot before. Did a rifle get pointed his way?

Did a shooter load when he was not supposed to?

Sounds way over the top.

It's not always the volume, it is what's said. Heck, tell the boys why you are speaking loudly."Boys I'm not yelling I am insuring that everyone can hear me because we use earplugs."

Threatening to kick kids off the range is BS also.

State,"If you cannot obey the rules I cannot have you risking the safety of the range." Say it ONCE get nods all around from every shooter, then deliver if somebody puts safety in question.

We can all learn how to better get the point across each time we run the range.

Over reacting and jumping a kids tail and then the other instructor piling on is a rookie move or a sign that somebody wanted to be a Drill Instructor but never even had the courage to stand on the yellow footprints.

I hate to hear crap like this.

We are here to teach boys lifelong skills and hobbies. The proper mix of firmness, fairness and tact must be observed at all times.

Do I raise my voice at times , yes. 100 lbs ago I was an infantry platoon sergeant. I'm not anymore and these kids aren't Marines.

Simply saying to the offending Scout, "Shooter step back from the line!" would have sufficed. When all the people came back to the line prior to "making ready" you could re school the Scouts and say, "No one is to go near the benched rifles while shooters are down range!". And then state, "If something falls off the table leave it there until I tell you to come back to the line"

You could even add, "Lad we don't go near benched rifles when some shooters are forward of the line. Imagine how you would feel down by the targets while some one was close to handling a rifle".

Simply don't ask these people back.

When I took the NRA Rifle cert I must have missed the part that taught you to embarass the students.

And yes Ive seen crazy stuff on a range: a WM that threw a grenade about 5 yards(the ECR is 15 meters).

Ive seen a Parris Island recruit hold a loaded, hammer back, 1911 .45 in his left hand and rotate it towards a DI's chest to look at where the safety was. THAT'S WHY WE NEVER PUT OUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER until we are ready to shoot the firearm. I happened so fast it was sureal not even time for a holy s__T

These two pikers seem too forceful.

If you can't run a safe range without being a jerk you won't get many 45 year old men to shoot at the range they normally run. I can be safe and follow range commands without somebody treating me like a fool.

Sure Baden can you tell us when the term "assault weapon" was made up by the gun grabbers.

Hal,

The M1 does not have a detachable magazine.

The M1 has an 8 round clip.

A clip is not a magazine, a magazine is not a clip.

To all,

Why is it when somebody robs a bank or the trash in gangs does some killing for self worth do the anti gun, anti rights people want to infringe upon the gun owning rights of the 70 million people that did not commit the crime?

Hilter took the firearms owning rights away from Jews.

Imagine if every Jew in prewar Germany owned a gun, would Hilter have been able to do what he did?

If you don't want to own a gun, don't.

Don't even try to mess with my rights to own one. Every law they make infringes only upon the law abiding. Criminals don't care. How hard is that to comprehend?

When will anti gunners get a clue that GOVERNMENTS kill more people than individuals could ever comprehend?

Mao. Stalin. Hitler. They were all gov't guys. Upwards of 50 MILLION people dead there.

I love my country, I don't trust my GOVERNMENT. The media I trust even less.

There was a post on the uniform thread a while back, I have recently sent an email to the Gold Star mothers organization asking them to tell their members to tell our members to honor their fallen sons.

The Gold Star mothers and siblings know if their loved ones were Scouts.

First to review the reg from the uniform guide:

GOLD STARS (MEMORIAL) Gold stars may be affixed to the unit flag indicating members of the unit who died in the service of their country. The stars should be placed along the staff edge of the flag, parallel to the staff, with the bottom star 6 inches from the staff edge and 6 inches from the bottom edge; subsequent stars to be placed proportionately on that line, up to the place assigned to the veteran insignia, No. 11117.

Ref: Insignia Guide, page 49 (2003-2005 edition)

Next my note to them:

Ma'am,

My name is ---------------- I am a Scoutmaster in Troop XX , ---------------------, NY The Troop XX flag proudly displays 6 gold stars signifying 6 former Boy Scouts from the Troop that went on to lose their lives in service to their country. Five stars are for WW2 members and one is from Vietnam.

Why am I telling you this? The fact that you can remember the fallen on a Troop flag is just not well known in the Scouting community.

Can a letter be written to the Boy Scout national HQ from the Gold Star Mothers asking them to reinforce this tradition with all Boy Scout and Cub Scout units?

Secondly can this "word" be passed to all Gold Star mothers through your newsletter? Many Boy Scout Troops from long ago still function in the towns where your members still reside. If not, many brothers and sisters would be able contact Troops. Any Boy Scout Troop or Cub Pack would be proud to display this small remembrance for a fallen former member.

Let us both work together to insure every fallen warrior is remembered.

Incidentally I am a former Marine. The person that found this regulation for us is --------------, a medically retired Army Reserve or National Guard Captain.

Sincerely, uz2bnowl

A response came back:

I've thought about this in relation to the original intent of the service banners/gold star banners. The fact that this use isn't traditional (meaning it isn't the normal rectangular red, white and blue window banner) certainly doesn't detract from the fact that it shares the same intent as the service banners - to acknowledge, honor and memorialize the sacrifice of an American in the nation's service. Although the government did codify the use of the service banner in the 1919 World Almanac, it was more along the line of suggestions, certainly not laws like we have for the use and presentation of the American flag. Therefore it doesn't have to be a traditional service flag that displays the gold stars - heaven knows there were thousands of interpretations made by families and organizations in World War I and II.

So, from my perspective, the use of gold stars on Boy Scout troop flags seems to be an acceptable adaptation of the original intent of the service flags. I can't think of any organizations that would treat those stars with more honor than the Boy Scouts. I love the idea of those young men being told what those stars represent and perhaps a bit of personal history about the young men who were once Scouts, as they are now, who went on to serve the nation in this way in a time of need. I see whole future generations of Scouts understanding and appreciating the symbolism of the gold star - an understanding and appreciation that far too few in this nation now have.

If you like, we could work up a "speech" or "ceremony" that a gold star mother or Scout master might deliver to dedicate the gold stars on a Troop banner (I particularly like the possibility of gold star mothers being involved in this with the troop). That, plus personal comments about the soldier(s) they represent if such information is available, would be a meaningful tribute. Such an adaptation would also clearly promote the original intent of AGSM to perpetuate the memory of those lost and to inculcate patriotism in the youth of the nation:

Section 2: To preserve the records and perpetuate the memory of those whose lives were sacrificed.

Section 3: To maintain true allegiance to the United States of America; to inculcate lessons of patriotism and love of country in the communities

in which we live; to inspire reverence for the Stars and Stripes in the youth of the Nation.

Perhaps a note on the AGSM website with a link to the Scout regulation in the Insignia Guide would be helpful as well as a note in the newsletter.

I will leave this in your hands from this point - I have not included any of the other moms on the distribution of this note so you could present it as you wish. Please let me know what is decided!

This is not an official response from the whole organization. More of another way to get the word out about honoring these former Scouts.

I put this up here so that if somebody calls your Troop and says there is a provision to remember their loved one they are correct.

I know I have written about this a couple of times and some might think, "Why is he going on and on about this?"

You can be sure I'll stop when every former Cub and Boy Scout that gave his life for his country gets the honor he deserves

I should not be so sexist it is not much of a stretch to think that a young lady could have been and Explorer, Venture Crew member, or leader and be included in this honor.

Please pass this word to folks in every district in America.

Thank you.

As a boy I was only a Boy Scout for a year. The Troop dissolved. I did not want to go to a neighboring Troop. I guarantee I read my Boy Scout book one heck of a lot more than my soon to be Life Scout son. As the SM, I would say I read that book more than most of "my" Scouts.

$10 to put a book in the hands of a young man is not alot to do. They may come back. I would not have the Cub walk the bridge and be received on the other side.

My question is why do the parents want it?

AsK them, I think you have a "right" to know.

Thank you all.

Kudu,

Bake a 9" full blown apple pie in a D.O.

Show them how easy it is.

I had the same response you did, one of them said, "We gotta do this from now on!!"

Google --------Hague freezeout

See the maple apple dumpling recipe

let me know how much you like it.

Can somebody please post a sample DAM reccomendation here so I can look at the format?

Thank you in advance

We've whipped this dead horse so much it's now a rusty can of Alpo. Until we change National we aren't going to get anywhere

Only in a country where the sitting President needs a definition of the word "is" could we possibly need to define the word active.

Anybody want to come to an Eage ceremony in January for a boy that doesn't deserve it? I'll be there.

A few years ago we took the cubs on a Pack overnight to Sayre and we were treated very well by those folks. The pool was under construction at that time, schedule time for that.

We then drove to the "T" station and rode into the city. We saw the Aquarium, which was great.

There is a water taxi for a couple of bucks that runs fron near the aquarium to Ironsides, however it may close for winter.

A trip to the Constitution is well worth the trip. I think it is closed in Monday and Tuesday. And be ready for "the search" prior to boarding her. The Museum is very good with some "tryits" for kids; sleep in a hammock and walk ropes.

The Uss Cassin Young is next door. the National Park service guides were not real jazzed up. Do some research on Cassin Young first. Maybe you have a Navy or Marine vet that can explain what going to sea is like.

The tour of Fenway park is great. The 2009 WS Champion Red Sox play there. The tour was $12 when last I took it.

Learn all you can about the "T" and charlie passes. The "T" is your friend in Boston.

Plymouth, Salem, Battleship Cove and Boston are not co located.

Plan,Plan,Plan

Ask the boys what they wish to see and build around that.

Marbles.

Silly?

Not when I had one of my parents come up to me and say, Who would have thought that he could play mables with his brother for over an hour.

There is a reason why they have been around since the Egyptians...they work.

Scout Mom SD

"fears for the children of people that would boo a new president"

Did you fear for the children of people who threw garbage at the Pres. Bush limo in Jan 2001?

Or was that OK "cause he really didn't win" ????

The nation and the left did a lot more than just boo.

I don't recall anybody but Al Gore saying we should support Mr. Bush

Chas Schumer (a load from NY) equated conservative talk radio with pornography. That's tolerance for you. Look for the "Fairness DOCTRINE" soon. Reminds me of the German "Democratic" Republic. Two legs bad 4 legs good except for birds.

HISTORIC??? why ???? because he is black. Why doesn't anybody think that is a racist thing to say?

"not the color of their skin but the content of their character"

MLK was killed because he uttered those words.

What experience does this man have?

Let's hope Biden was wrong about being tested. Both because I don't want anybody hurt and because I don't what to watch Mr. Obama do "On the job training"

This guy is all hat and no cows.

Look for the Dems to go hard to the left while they can.

They have two years to "reconstruct" America.

I will admit to being intolerant to having my 2nd ammend. rights infringed, my tax dollars paying for unborn babies to be thrown in a landfill and more of my money being taken by the gov't to be given to people who continue to make bad decisions even after having 4 kids by 3 diferent studs. I don't like that my tax dollars go to buying addicts clean needles yet I have to show ID to buy them for my diabetic dog.

Simply stated Mr. Obama was elected because folks blame everything on Bush. Simply not being George Bush does not bestow the man with enough talent, gravitas(remember that word???????????) and experience to run the country.

Scouter Terry you are an idiot.

If that is offensive I find your "America has not forgotten 9/11" very offensive.

If I drive my jet into Hamas HQ, killing innocent people and children visiting Grandma sitting in my plane, does that mean Hamas will stop burning our flag? Will Hamas "change"?

Winston Churchill did not bend to Hitler. FDR did not think the rape of Nanking was OK after Pearl Harbor.

Let's see if the "I'm not George Bush " line works on the rest of the world the way it did on 50 million Americans.

I'm all in favor of giving him as much of a chance as the "people" who threw food at the limo on 1/20/01.

Actually I don't think I can be that stupid. "Too much time wasted on the things that divide us" I think that THEY thought that time was well spent, heck you got the ball now let's see what you do with it.

If the rule of law prevails I'll be waiting for his illegal aunt to be sent to Kenya.

Let's see how we like the tax on imputed income 'cause it's a comin'.

On this date in 1983 two guys I was in the same platoon with were killed. I lived in the same building the winter before.

The guy that killed him didn't wear a uniform The people in Iraq don't wear uniforms. According to every land warfare class I ever attended they aren't playing according to "Hoyle". Therefore they don't get afforded the same rights.

I am for civilian control of the military, it has worked for 200 years.

I am against the armchair generals who never even had the stones to serve as a Private that watch the news and comment. Jack Nicholson played a crazy ficticious Colonel but he did have a point about the critiquing of the job they do.

Some Alaskan Island was invaded by the US Army in WW2, 26 American Soldiers were hit before they realized there were no Japanese on the island. If Mr. Bush did that today he would be burnt in effigy(and as "Coach" said, "Effigy? Why don't we burn 'em in Boston?")

Semper FI Cooper and Barrett our first duty is to remember

Rythos,

Did you just start to wonder where the normal people where?

How about when the food was thrown at the Presidential limo in George Bush's inaugural?

I the town of Clifton Park NY someone painted F----Bush on a very large American flag mounted on a wall.

When Palin's daughter really had the infant with Downs Syndrome(and it was fathered by Palin's husband). Or so they said.

As somebody here said the election is close. The nation really is divided about 50/50 with 80% of the people really angry.

If Obama doesn't win people will be really angry. The polls have had him ahead for so long.

If McCain wins the cartoonist will parody(sp?) the "Dewey defeats Truman" picture.

No matter who wins we are in for a bumpy ride.

Let us be happy that we have a right to argue and scrap over who will run the country because in many places there really is no choice and if you step out of line with your mouth you are in for a long train ride or worse.

People are free to say they hate politics but the alternative isn't real great. If you hate politics that you must be voting for John "I can please all the people all the time" McCain. He has made a career trying to stay out of the fray. The right really can't stand the guy and I'm sure they wonder how we got here.

The guy in the movie was a big WUSS. If I am going to bring something to a political rally, I'm not going to hide once the camera is on me, let alone give the thing to a kid.I think there are big whimps on both sides.

The Normal people are out there they just aren't on camera on CBS news. They were at work that day.

Fishing

Fly fishing

Rifle

Salesmanship

I am thinking about getting a dedicated cell phone for the last one as the boys are clamoring to take it and there is so much interest.

Do you have a Troop Bugler?

When does he bugle? Camporees? Camping? I think a soldiers lullaby heard from far off would not be too objectionable to most. 'Course some eco purists want to remove fire towers that used to keep the woods from going up in flames. They might flip at a bugle.

I have an old Rexcraft BSA bugle that looks as old as our 84 year old Troop. Does play get effected with dents? The solder joint is broke at the top coil. Can I resolder this without making the whole thing come loose. I would bring it to a music store but I am afraid they would laugh at me and tell me to throw the old thing in the scrap brass heap.

Interesting trip to the hardware store last week.

They have chunk charcoal there. I know this is how charcoal is supposed to be or was before Henry Ford had to dispose of all those wood boxes that did not become floorboards so he put his relative Kingsford in charge of making pulverized remoulded stuff. (run on sentence)

Interesting thing is you can put it out with water and reuse what's left. You cannot do that with briquettes we have all seen them fall apart.

Do any of you D.O. maestros use this?

A Scout is thrifty. I am a cheap old buzzard. You could put the stuff out right after

The bag braggs about more heat too.

What say you?

We have 5 aluminum Grummans and one Michicraft.

The boys claim the Michicraft is cursed as they have rolled her before.

My son and I took her for the last two days of a Long Lk.-Raquette-Tupper trip. Once I got some rocks under my son's seat(i'm fat)to trim us a bit the Michicraft was fine.

We got our trailer from Navy morale welfare and recreation(they were about to scrap it)

On buying:

We had the 2 Grummans bfore we went on a 4 boat buying spree. We paid from $250 to $400 for used canoes. The Michicraft was $250 she's dented but still running. The Three Grummans were more expensive but all in great shape. We had success with Ebay and Craigslist.

You don't say where you are from. Is water close?

Good Luck and go for it.

We do it like Lisabob says.

Everybody is positive and maybe points out pitfalls that they may see. Members also allow the Scout into their network of friends to help boy get the job done. You hear a whole lot of, "Give me a call tomorrow, I'll call my friend the Civil Engineer and he can explain the process to you."

The field of mentors gets bigger that way.

I would think the the boys tell each other that it is something to prepare for but not something to dread, the Scout leaves the room in relief not feeling like he got pounded.

Who are you people to say who works and who doesn't.

We can all point to situations that worked and some that didn't.

Here's one: two little girls in Scouts together.

Sarah, mom is a teacher, Dad worked a 50 hour salary job, served in the national guard, worked minimum wage part time to make ends meet.

Kaitlyn, mom stayed home until 2nd grade, dad worked.

This morning Sarah is waking up at college where she holds a 3.65 cum, plans on going to law school, and is doing fine. Parents pay the full shot for school, not a dime in financial aid that won't have to be paid back.

Kaitlyn still lives with mommie and daddy. Last year she spent on the road with a band,"providing support*****" to the band. Has more tattoos than the lady in the circus, and a hair color that God didn't think about making. She is doing fine also.

That's all well and good and Kaitlyn can do what she wants and live her life her own way. WELL, SO CAN ANYBODY ELSE.

******** Providing support---they sure have a new name for everything.

Come to NY there is a ton of people staying home with their kids---I'm helping pay for them to do it. I help feed the kids,house the entire family, donate money for school supplies,pay for their medical care, baby formula,feed the whole family,pay for gas or heating fuel, I pay for them to play the lottery too. Regretably I pay to house, guard,feed,clothe some of the grown up kids when they do bad things.

Someday I'll continue to pay for them to take the bus to the Indian Casinos with their oxygen tanks in tow to spend their money on building new casinos.

It's really a great system.

GWD--your view is not unpopular it just doesn't work for everybody. What's unpopular is the 'tude you and Fscouter have that everybody else should do it your way. The world maybe did go bad when moms went to work. But a larger part is that parents don't rein in their kids actions. Alot more of those family game nights would help the nation. Time with kids that helps. Reading to kids helps. I would agree with you, when mom started to work she no longer had the energy to do it all. I can't say as I really can criticize her either. She is not working for her family she is working to support those other folks that are not working to support themselves.

Having a child should never be a surprise. Even the best preventive methods are about 99% effective, the label on the box just never said that the 1% happened the first time or the 99th time. Even the best goalie misses the puck now and again.

I thought he would gas me like a cockroach in between the two minefield belts in 1991.

One reason we surmised then was the laws of land warfare (or whatever they are called, maybe John in KC can add something) allow and "victim nation" of NBC warfare to respond in kind with any other weapon. It was explained to us that if he used gas we could nuke him and be justified. That was the only satisfaction I though I would get whilst I got jiggy on the desert floor with a lung full of nerve gas. I hoped we would obliterated him.

Fast forward to today, I don't know why gas in arty shells were not expended by his side. He was losing it all, I'm sure he could hide some 155 mm type gas rounds and we did not find them prior to the invasion.

I am also sure that as his world closed in he thought maybe if he could hide out for a couple of years that maybe he could regain his power. Americans as a people look for microwave time solutions to problems. Hide out for a few years, invaders go home maybe he thought he could rise again.

I still don't know why he didn't let the inspectors do their job.

Scott Ritter lived not more than 10 miles from me. We'll never know what evidence they had on him. If it was all fabricated why did he show up to meet the under age girl?

Wait somebody at National has the time and gumption to change policy on laser tag, yet we have "be active" for advancement worded and defined so lads can make a last minute appearance and make Eagle?

Oh I'm glad we have our priorities straight!

that really is beautiful

Wait somebody at National has the time and gumption to change policy on laser tag, yet we have "be active" for advancement worded and defined so lads can make a last minute appearance and make Eagle?

Oh I'm glad we have our priorities straight!

that really is beautiful