Tampa Turtle

For such a centrally managed organization kinda of an evasive answer. I guess it is the cookies.

18 minutes ago, Pselb said:

The logic doesn't seem to follow through.  If I my son wanted to play summer baseball, there would be the coach and maybe an assistant coach.  I'm only guessing in that my son is not in the program.  There's 9 on the team plus a few substitutes.  That makes the majority of parents irrelevant.  And me in particular in that I'm a history teacher, not a Phy Ed teacher.   Even if I were to "get involved", I wouldn't know the first thing about baseball, I played it as a kid, but that's about it.  What training would I get?  None.  So where's my carrot-on-a-stick?  My boy wants to play baseball, I drop him off for practice and watch his games.  That's what parents do.  

On the other hand my church approaches me and says they would like someone to work with the youth, maybe teaching Sunday School.  Okay, I have the skills, I have the training, I can be effective.  As long as all my children are involved in the program, not a problem.  If one daughter wants to do soccer, the son does baseball and the other daughter wants dance lessons.  Fine, I can drop them off at the appropriate times, BUT if one or all of these programs want "parental volunteers" to help, then how do I tell my kids that their activity gets my attention and the others don't?  Or I can do all three and burn myself out and find no time to volunteer for things that interest me as an individual.  

Now, I may be an "outsider" to scouting, but the vast majority of parents who have kids in the program fit into my situation.  Those that are volunteering may not be able to recognize this factor.  Their world is scouting, ours is not.  The only connection is we have boys (and girls) in the program.

Yes, my situation is unique to me and my family, but I'm thinking there are many more just like me for other reasons who would find my shoes a comfortable fit.

I am starting to suspect you are Trolling and do not have a boy in the program. The way you phrase things is not how a parent of a child says things. If I am wrong I apologize. So WHAT program outside of scouting that is not work related are you involved in? I get it, I have a job and multiple kids...you pick your battles. But maybe I missed it what is yours?

I volunteer in Scouts and Band and occasionally church. Most people on this board have similar resumes. I can say the "no" because I have a bigger burning "yes". What is yours?

3 hours ago, Pselb said:

I'm not trying to be a hard-nose about any of this, but from my perspective on this whole thing, it comes as friendly observations from the "outside" side of the program.  If this viewpoint is not welcome, I can find other ways to fill my busy schedule.  And if one were to sit and think about it for 5 seconds, my participation on this forum IS a way of being involved....   Like the semi-annual teacher reviews, when the evaluator sits in the back of the classroom and observes your teaching for a while.  They see things that no one else in the room sees, both with the teacher, the students, the lesson and the interaction going on.  Some teachers "fear" this process, I like it because it helps me improve in my profession.  Everyone is different.

While I know there are a few "Scouter-retirees" lurking on this board most of the folks here have active skin in the game and experience in dealing with the actual issues...I do not think your comments amount to much effective feedback because obviously you have volunteered to be disengaged from scouting or, at your admission, really helping out because you have said you basically have better things to do. That is your right but it will irk folks who put in the time and grapple with the issues. Most teacher evaluators have some experience in teaching...if you say what you mean sit in the back of some pack or den meetings, make your observations, and then "improve the profession" face-to-face 'cause every Troop, Pack, and Den are different. 

And you know every den I was ever in that had a teacher...everyone gave them a lot of slack cause they knew they were really, really busy...but even then every one of those teachers (almost all of them were sponsors of clubs, had 2nd jobs, were pursuing degrees, had other kids) managed to help out now and again. 

2 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

...or outside the medicinal marijuana shop if you are in those states. 

"We have CAMPOUTS not COOKIES!"

1 minute ago, numbersnerd said:

The first thing you need to do is have a discussion with your CO and find out if they support inclusion of girls in their unit. Any activity before that is potentially a waste of effort.

Good advice. Since the United Methodist Church committee on Scouting thinks its swell I'd be surprised if our Minister would care enough to dissent. I'd then ask the CC, etc for their position. 

Body Positivity Win: ‘Boys’ Life’ Magazine Just Picked A Plus-Sized Boy For Its Annual Sexiest Boy Alive Issue

http://www.clickhole.com/article/body-positivity-win-boys-life-magazine-just-picked-7295

Common sense is any youth organization staffed by volunteers like scouts, band, lacrosse, football, lego robotics, is gonna put the touch on parents to pitch in from time to time. 

Take up a position  on the other side of the supermarket entrance across from the Girl Scouts selling cookies with a sign: "Boy Scouts of America are now pro-choice: Girls now welcome!"

I was a reluctant Tiger leader but my 2nd week in I was at the grocery store and one of my boys pointed me out to his mom "That's him! My Scoutleader!". I was hooked. I felt like a rock star.

@NJCubScouter my kids had cub scout socks about 80% of the time. I had to buy 5-6 pairs to come up with 2 on Pack night and I swear the tents at the rare cub scout campouts eat them.

As for skirts I am for skirts or shorts but no skorts BUT I say let customer demand drive that decision and see what happens. I do think that there needs to be some sort of correlation between skirt lengths for girls and short lengths for boys...I guess that could be a quagmire the way girls grow so fast sometimes and how long BSA has had the shorts the last few years. Maybe we can compromise and everyone can wear the old 70's "hot pants" (my scouts name for them)...yeah they'd all look pretty leggy but they'd be consistent. 

I think the whole point of the thread is for people to give opinions as to what they would do in that situation. A lot of the comments fall in the line of "if that was my kid" or "if I ran the girl scouts" sort of thing. If we are not gonna comment on that well the Forums will be a lot shorter.

Some of this discussion is values based. I had a similar situation at our High School. The Turtles are, in spite of our other commitments, big volunteers of our high school band. Band needs money and the boosters (attempted) to sponsor an all-you-can-drink beer tent along Tampa's big pirate parade/drunk-fest. Now this is the same parade where every year the school district pushes out messages, flyers, and school meetings on students not to do underage drinking at said event. Mr and Mrs Turtle stood up at the booster meeting and said weren't we sending a mixed message--sure it is legal but isn't that just winking at the kids in a few years binge drinking will be OK? Even the supporters said, well yes, but THE MONEY we could be leaving at the table and if we don't do it someone else will. We lost that vote by a wide margin. (they didn't get the permit so in the end it was a moot point)

So....to bring in back to the thread....even IF selling the cookies is legal and even smart as a business move and the child is safe and the sales are legal it seems in conflict with the wholesome, progressively wholesome, but wholesome image of the Girl Scouts who also seem to encourage education on the dangers of substance abuse both legal and illegal. I'd LOVE to hear their regional or national GSUSA weigh in on it.

But maybe that is not an issue in GSUSA, I do Boy Scouts not Girl Scouts. I am just trying to be consistent and not a hypocrite which frankly is hard enough as it is.  

18 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

@Pselb , take it easy. No one and definitely not me stated or implied that you and your wife were using the BSA for babysitting, only that some parents have and long before Family Scouting arrived.

@NJCubScouter, @Sentinel947, @LeCastor

 

When I was a cub leader I remember it was hard work prepping for many meetings. I knew we had some single parents with multiple kids and limited time. All I asked was everybody to do something...to put some skin in the game. Maybe they brought snacks for one meeting, or they made some phone calls to set up a field trip, or led one activity for a portion of one meeting, or knew somebody who knew somebody for a good show and tell at a den meeting. Some could do more than others but everyone should do something. What I think what some scouters get frustrated by are the folks who blow by the den meeting in some expensive car, are heavily involved in their social thing (around here it is some social climbing Gasparilla crewe that demands a lot of time and money), and never return any communications if we leaders had a question. I had a few parents that seemed to feel either (1) BSA somehow payed me or (2) I was a real dope and if I was willing to be their baby sitter by all means they would take advantage of it --in other words I was "the hired help". I had more than one parent who used the den meeting time for extra-martial hooking up time but you find that out later after things have blown up.

Those parents were frustrating because they often seemed to ignore their boys and I would feel I really had a duty to work with them. 

And there are some parents who just seem clueless that things just magically happen.

1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

Some of the best liquid refreshments on the planet are made by these guys. Give them my best next time you correspond. 

Nah, these guys just bake things. Still a LOT of them were Boy Scouts. 

2 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Far too often people only listen enough to figure out how to respond instead of listening to understand the perspective of others. This is not limited to one side or the other. 

I correspond with some Trappist Benedictine Monks...this is one of the biggest problems they have in living with one another.

@cocomax I will say naming a thread "the current moral panic" is a good attention grammar.  You should write listicles for the internet. A dutch oven disaster on a campout could have a thread "dutch holocaust survivors tell chilling tale of starvation in the woods". 

1 minute ago, Gwaihir said:

ah, I see the correlation now.  Missed it the first go around.  all good! 

I do ramble a bit, sorry.

54 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

There was an outstanding program on NPR about this very topic a few days ago:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/637/words-you-cant-say

I heard that while on a home repair run. Was very good story...very messy.

3 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

out of your church??? 

"Made not to feel welcome" by some in the congregation. (the irony is they aren't as active helping out as I) My denomination is under extreme strain right now. I'd rather move that discussion off-line. I know I brought it up, sorry--I don't want to de-rail the thread too much. (If you care you are free to message me)

I guess my point is that it is getting harder to know where the landmines are now and when you step on one real dialogue seems to stop. And I mean face to face communication. I shudder to think about social media.

3 minutes ago, Gwaihir said:

Wait, wait, wait! so what you're saying is "Family Scouting" is a misnomer and the "family" doesn't really want to be involved in scouts, they just want a one stop baby sitting shop????? 

Sure seems that way, especially the first few ranks. Then you reel a few folks in. It has been so long with me in the pack that I cannot remember the proportions. By the time you get to Webelo the parent groups have gelled enough that people have found their adult niche.

...on the other hand....the boys feeding into our Troop is turning into a trickle (again) the last few years. We now have two feeder packs and share a third and are on the third year of only getting one or two cross-overs. I thought it was our program but when I checked in with two neighboring Troops they had big slow downs too. It was a discussion at Summer Camp in NC where many of the folks up there were experiencing a sharp drop off. So I can understand Nationals desire to recruit girls to bolster membership because it is right.

I get frustrated because while I carp here at the meetings I follow the BSA official line. And many folks doubted that their will be enough leaders to avoid gender-blended patrols and ,later, Troops despite what National said. I suspect that not only the 'separate but equal' scheme not survive contact with reality it will not survive the initial planning stages at the local level.

I'd LOVE to be proved wrong on this one.

19 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

Yeah right. Little Johnny Bear Cub's dad didn't volunteer, and now that little sister Suzy can sign up as a Tiger too, there's absolutely zero incentive to do so now.  Quite the opposite, now he has Baby Sitters of America (BSA) lined up to watch both his kids.  Him and the Mrs. have a night off.

Speaking from real life, our Pack has 3 sets of current parents (none registered leaders) with younger daughters they are ready to sign up.  They have zero interest in getting involved other than dropping off and standing in the back.

That is always the problem girls or not. I had 20 Tigers in one den and had to operate a month before I had a ADL (who was the US Attorney where I lived so like his time was pretty precious) would step up just to help me with crowd control. In Cub Scouts you have to twist arms...hard!

2 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

This is the reality and pain of collectivism.  Doesn't matter if it's a church, community, political party, government, corporation, or charitable organization.  Believe and repeat the narrative or face shaming.  If that doesn't work you will be banished.  Religions have worked this way forever, secular society is quickly catching up.

Yes my "I am so liberal I worked on Jesse Jackson's presidential campaign" bonafides is meaningless. It is harder and harder where it is "can we agree to disagree". 

Get all the angst and everything but BSA is not gonna change their policy and we Scouters just gotta roll with it or not play the game. When Girls in scouting starts affecting our individual units then there is another decision point for some. I do think the law of unintended consequences will arise in the Cub Scout packs first.

On the other hand I get the concept of the 'moral panic'; I was almost run out of my church for the comment that "In a broad generality Men and Women experience the world differently". Somehow that made me a troglodyte, transgender-hating (since I brought up only 2 genders), homo-phobic (not sure how that staretd) etc, etc. Glad I didn't  bring up I was a scout leader. 

You guys made me reread the whole thread...

Who is quoting who? I am getting so confused?  

Will the new training still have the "Too Sexy or Not" uniform quiz? And what is this "Skorting" trend I am supposed to be on guard for--skirt snorts? I am so confused. Do I need to get additional PYT-YPT training now? HELP!