SR751Fox

Knight --

I don't necessarily disagree that water could replace sodas and that cracker barrels could involve some healthy alternatives. However, I think you are missing the bigger picture. People don't gain most of their weight at roundtables or campouts.

Where do you draw the line? My son's troop held its annual spaghetti dinner Saturday and served Ranch dressing with the salad. They also had a dessert table. Is that OK in your book? Also, I tend to drink a lot of coffee, even though some health professionals claim it's bad for me.

I'm one of the lucky ones. . . My beer gut comes from . . . beer. I'm also a sucker for a bowl of fried okra. Bacon is pretty good too.

Thank goodness the BSA sells official pants in my size.

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Hershey -

I''d be interested to know how the unit has set a $400 sales -or- $100 dues rate. The unit keeps roughly 33% of the popcorn income (the other two-thirds is split between your council and the Pop Weaver folks).

With $400 in sales, the Scout will have brought in about $133 to the unit -- so the powers-that-be in your unit are forgiving an additional $100 in sales if you just fork up $100. The same people are saying you must bring in about $250 income to become elgible for spring trip attendance.

Seems like a slight double standard to me.

I think unit fundraisers are among the most important lessons the boys can learn . . . My son is involved in the unit fundraiser. If he does not sell a required amount, it comes out of his pocket (not mine). Although he paid for his own summer camp last year through fundraising effort, winter camp was paid for by yard mowing income -- his own. Either way, he took responsibility. (FYI, I would write the check if he were unable to earn the difference.)

A few years ago, as a Cubmaster, I urged our Pack Committee to require fundraising participation. I could see no reason why it should be any other way. One committee member explained that she felt comfortable allowing sales only to friends and family -- which wasn''t sufficient to meet the minimum goal. Who was I to question that? So, she wrote a check. Fast forward a few years to Boy Scouts and the committee (with much more wisdom than I alone) has the same system: sell a certain amount or make up the difference out of your own pocket.

The bottom line here is the income necessary to pay for activities and the operation of the unit. There are many legitimate reasons why I shouldn''t shove a "must sell" rule down people''s throats, including a parent''s comfort level. (Who''s to say that parent didn''t witness some horrible scene while selling Girl Scout cookies door to door?)

My advice is this: Sit down with the committee chair (NOT the Scoutmaster, since fundraisers are not his charge) and express your concerns only AFTER everything has been explained. Be prepared to counter with WHY you don''t like the system and be prepared to offer a reasonable alternative.

Oh. . .You should also request a copy of the unit budget.

Take care.

A

..and a good ol'' Fox too!

I''ll run it by the professional (again). I appreciate your help.

John -

Thanks for the quick reply and link. As I read it, row-boating is within the scope. We are in a controlled area without power or sail boats and it would be at a district event (held at a BSA camp).

If I read it correctly, we need some Safety Afloat people and not necessarily NCS-trained folks.

Am I reading it correctly?

Thanks again.

What if. . .

It is a Cub Scout event and the boys are in row-boats with an adult (their fathers) in a lake inlet?

I''m told the BSA Lifeguard adult is required to be on the premises. I''m also told that a NCS-aquatics trained adult needs to be there. Problem is, there are only two (NCS-trained) in our council. One is away at college and the other is a new mom.

Is the information I received correct? We would like to have this event, but our chances look slim. Perhaps there is someone here who might be willing to do a volunteer trade-off?

Thank you for your help. I apologize if I''m asking anyone to repeat what has already been mentioned.

SR751Fox

Carol -

I thought you were from Texas when I saw the chicken fried steak. I KNEW you were from Texas when I saw the fried okra. Mmmm! I remember living along the Jersey Shore and going to grocery stores and asking for okra. People just looked at me funny. I finally had someone FedEx some from my home state. -- And campout okra, made in a dutch oven, is almost as good as mamaw used to make. (I''m back in Texas these days, so the okra is easy to come by.)

Don''t forget the peach cobbler and the BEST barbecue in the country, smoked brisket (for which none of that sweet KC sauce or mustardy Carolina stuff is necessary -- dry rubbed Texas barbecue brisket smoked with pecan wood is a true stand-alone).

Ya''ll have me hungry!

The only foolproof way to have someone commit is to have them hand over a deposit. Let them know up front whether their deposit is refundable.

We've been burned by money issues on a number of occasions. One particular (Cub Scout) had not participated in the fundraiser, nor had his parents taken advantage of any opportunity to volunteer. (As well, there was no need for financial aid.) They were the types who would show up just as dinner was being served and would "have to leave" immediately after the last patch was awarded, but prior to cleanup. So, what did we do? We called the parent prior to a pack meeting and let her know that we needed payment for all previous and upcoming awards, or we wouldn't be able to provide anything further to her son. She paid.

Just last weekend, a new Scout family had paid for food for the campout, but chose not to eat dinner with the Scouts. They've already asked for a partial refund, but will not get it. The food was purchased and prepared for them. It was their choice. This one's a no brainer.

Take care.

SR751Fox(This message has been edited by SR751Fox)

Lisabob -- I was illustrating absurdity. I can assure you, having cleaned a stall or two myself (mean thoroughbred racers no less), that I know all about the inherent dangers of working around horses.

And you are correct about the 101+ ways kids can get hurt on farms. How many times have I had to threaten my own child to stay off the tractor and not throw rocks at the spinning PTO?!?

But I also know an adult who got several toes cut off by a push mower. And I've seen a black eye caused by someone stepping on a garden rake. -- My own son sliced into his finger with the same knife that he had just earned his Tote n' Chip by showing proper use only minutes earlier.

Parents must use common sense when allowing their children to participate in certain job opportunities. And for goodness' sakes, leave the Scouts out of it.

I think it goes without saying that you don't want an 11-year-old holding a hoof while the farrier does his work on the 2-year-old thoroughbred. Ultimately though, this is a parent-kid issue. It has nothing to do with the unit, district or council. As far as someone in the troop passing along possible job ideas . . . it really doesn't matter, since the parents ultimately decide.

Call me 'old school' -- I'm with OGE on this one. As a young Boy Scout, my parents told me that they were not paying my way to camp and that I would have to earn it myself. Part of that was participating in the official troop fundraiser. But any additional funds came from mowing lawns.

This doesn't have to be complicated. Leave the council out of it, since it's not a Scouting issue. If someone has some hay to be stacked, stalls to be cleaned or a lawn to be mowed, they should contact the boys/parents directly and let them deal with it.

Take care.

>>If your Quality District, in your Quality Council does not expect it's Unit Commissioners to actually visit the units they serve, then what DO they expect them to do?> BTW - I am also in a Quality Unit, a Quality District & a Quality

Council.

I long for the day when I'm only wearing one hat.

As far as the Quality District. . . All I can say is, we continue to achieve it and the return address still says Irving, Texas. And, we haven't had any 60-boy packs fall apart overnight, so apparently our system works in that regard, and the national office approves.

I agree that it would be better if everyone wore only one hat, but people aren't exactly beating down the doors to volunteer.

In the case of your now-defunct pack, a unit commish wearing another hat (such as the ones in my district) could have helped. Apparently, the BSA's ideal system of commissioners, as ya'll operate under, did not work for them. Meanwhile, I still contend that others held some responsibility for that unit. It's tough to hang all of it on one AWOL unit commish.

Ea --

Okay, I'm with you on the rule. But I'm also saying that in our quality district/council unit commissioners hold other positions elsewhere.

Don't we all?

Take care.

Ea --

I'm with you on everything except a BSA rule regarding Unit Commissioners not being unit leaders. Perhaps such a rule prevents unit leaders serving as commissioners in the same unit. But I've checked with the powers that be and no rule applies to unit leaders serving as commissioners in a different unit. Every unit commish in my district is a pack, troop or crew leader elsewhere -- including the district commish.

Either way, it appears that pack's troubles was way beyond anything a unit commish could have solved.

Take care.

Eamonn --

I work with two Quality Units within a Quality District (several consecutive years) within a Quality Council (also several consecutive years) and it is not our practice to expect any Unit Commish to be at monthly unit committee meetings. Considering that most unit commissioners are part of their own unit, it would be impossible if not very inconvenient.

One of our den leaders, for example, is also a unit commish. How reasonable would it be to expect her to conduct three den meetings, attend our pack committee meeting, pack meeting, monthly roundtable, monthly unit commissioners meeting -- and then three more pack committee meetings?

All of that said, did no one at this pack let anyone know what was going on? Did people just disappear? I find it very difficult to place any responsiblity with a unit commish when 60 members (and conceivably 120 adults) were there to report trouble. Of all those people. . . no one called your council to complain? Where was the DE? The DE gets PAID for keeping those numbers. If I were the DE in that district, I can assure you I would show my face around the bigger packs once in a while (like all of our successful DEs have done). Is your DE just. . . AWOL?

It's always sad to hear about a pack folding. I hope at least some of the boys went elsewhere. I also hope that when your district resurrects this pack (and they will), they do not count on a district commish to keep it together in between showing up at two other packs' meetings all the time.

Good luck to ya'll.

I may well be incorrect, but I never understood regular committee meeting attendance as part of the unit commish' duties. In fact, with most unit commissioners being responsible for multiple units, it would rarely be possible.

I'm curious why such a strong unit died because one person found a boyfriend and lost interest. It sounds like it wasn't very strong afterall. Where was the charter organization during all of this?

There are at least a few lessons here, in my opinion. First, numbers don't make a "strong" unit. They only make a larger unit. Second, if you count on a district-level volunteer to keep your unit intact, it probably won't happen. Third, and most important, an inactive committee is often a major downfall.

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You all make very good points.

As it goes, that guy was a jerk (for many reasons above and beyond that question). But I got the job and built my resume` there, before moving into a larger and more lucrative situation -- thanks to him. Additionally, since being hired by this "jerk," he became a believer of the Scouting movement and donated a lot of his time and money to our cause. Knowing him now as a friend, I know that he still asks that question. Truth is, his answer would likely be the same if someone responded "I'm an Eagle Scout sir."

A useless question? Well, it depends on how beyond-the-surface one looks when evaluating. But myself, I think not.

There is an art to recruiting and retaining -- one that I have not come close to mastering. Here are my stories . . . and the solutions that I have employed thus far. (Please feel free to tell me where we went wrong.)

I took over one of the area's oldest and largest Cub Scout packs a few years ago. It was a last-minute thing, sort of. At the time, we had roughly 60 registered boys and 10-15 registered leaders. Everything was moving along smoothly, until one of the dean leaders questioned the advancement chair over 'Leave No Trace.' Long story short: I backed the advancement chair's decision that the awards would not be requisitioned in anticipation of completion (not that I had the official muscle, but I voiced my support to the complaining den leader, which was enough for her) and our pack split. We lost two large dens and several trained leaders to another pack in our area -- the other large pack. ...Fast forward to School Night for Scouting... This 'other' pack is okay. They aren't the most organized in the world and we rarely see their Scouts at district events, nor do we see their leaders. But boys do advance there, and retention is fine, so I don't have any major complaints. Anyway, three packs recruit at the same SNFS: us, the other large pack and a small mostly Spanish-speaking unit. Typically, we would grab 25-30 new recruits on this night. But my first year (and also the other CM's first year), they ended up with 40-something new boys, compared to our 15. Looking back, I think the main reason we got 15 is because they got tired of standing in line at the other pack! All of a sudden, our pack of 60 had gone down to 35-40 -- AFTER SNFS. And new leaders were hard to come by that year!

In year #2 of my tenure, we set up a Pinewood Derby track, bought give-away trinkets for the boys, offered free Boys Life to all new recruits, and had numerous leaders there in uniform available to answer questions. On top of all this, I was on the SNFS committee and made certain that some of our people were involved in Boy Talks. Despite all of this, we went home with 17 new scouts to their 40-50. The spanish-speaking pack ended up with 1-2.

After some deep thought and Q&A with some other experienced leaders, it hit me like a train -- the other pack had face recognition!

Although their cubmaster was not the most outgoing person in the world. . . And despite their lack of overall organization (and funds) compared to us, she (the CM) had been president of the school's PTA for several previous years. She was always team mom in baseball and soccer. She was basically out there. While many of her new recruits did not know her, they were comfortably 'familiar' with her because they had seen her on campus so many times.

I must admit that, while I want boys to be in Scouts, I would prefer that they be in my unit. I feel like we have better organization, a superior program to most, and trained leadership. We are about Scouting, and not necessarily a social club for parents. We are willing to split the pack when it comes to the issue of integrity, and we are darned certain that our Arrow of Light recipients know how to tie a square knot! --- But that is not enough for many neophyte parents.

This year, we enlisted the help of our COR for boy talks -- a youth pastor -- who knows how to communicate with kids. As it goes, he is at the school on a regular basis eating lunch with his son. And mom is a PTA officer. On that campus, we were back to 20 recruits (the other pack still did about 40). But we also began recruiting on two more campuses, where we signed up 15 new Scouts. Retention is another issue. . . Our district is well below the national average and our pack is right in line with district. At the unit level, we basically require Boys Life (its built in with the cost), maintain a web site, put out newsletters and remain in contact with Scouts and their parents. Not to mention, we are always fine-tuning our program.

On the Boy Scout level, my son crossed over into the troop that I grew up in, and have served as a volunteer for the past 6 years, or so. It's small (4-6 active boys on average) and has been on the verge of 'folding' every time recharter comes up.

Strangely, we have among the best facilties (and most money) in town. We have camped every month for as long as I can remember. We put out more than our fair share of Eagles (which can be a problem for a unit our size). We have experienced leaders. But. . . we haven't had more than a dozen Scouts in at least 10 years.

The only major mistake that I've seen is that we have not developed relationships with Cub Scout packs. We had a relationship with my pack, but it was in a different school district, and most of our crossovers remained with their school buddies. So, over the past year, we have made it a point to have Webelos activities with nearby packs. We have told parents that there are several good troops but that ours is a 'ground-floor' opportunity for boys to become long-time leaders and it is also their opportunity to shape a unit, opposed to joining a super-troop, where they may become lost in the crowd. So far, we've recruited 2-3 new boys as a result of this type of pitch.

Also, the face-recognition thing has helped us, I believe. I am entering my 3rd year as the district's daycamp director. Our troop -- albeit only 4-5 boys -- also serves on every Mom & Me/Dad & Lad staff. Of course, we have 2-3 leaders at every Roundtable these days.

I think that both our Cub Scout and Boy Scout solutions will pay off. I would like to see our pack remain at about 50 boys, such as it historically has. The Boy Scout troop should be at 24 boys maximum (our Scout Hut has 3 patrol rooms and a main room), including a leadership patrol). I have voiced these numbers as our goals and the other leaders seem to agree.

My two cents. . . for what they're worth

23 counts. . . I would guess that they (allegedly) did enough damage to warrant felony charges.

I remember being in a job interview about a month after I graduated high school. I was already enrolled in college and trying to get my foot in the door in my chosen career. The owner of the business asked me "Are you honest?" I replied to him "I'm an Eagle Scout, sir." He then said "I don't give a . Are you honest?"

At the time, I was in slight shock that he would question my statement. My answer to his question should have been translated: "yes. . .I'm trustworthy, loyal, helpful, etc." But he evidently had some experience, or clear memory of Charles Whitman, and thought it prudent to qualify my answer.

Since then, I've served on Board of Reviews for boys whom I felt did not belong in Scouts, much less with a red, white & blue medal. One Scout, in particular, was passed off on Eagle despite some concerns (the award was not my call) and he broke into several pool lockers at summer camp just weeks later, stealing several wallets and other personal belongings. My troop committee's position was to send his award in the mail, with no court of honor or further contact. The troop, meanwhile, attended camp in another council for several years because of the black eye this young man gave us.

Another Eagle in our troop came back a couple years later and told our SM that he was an atheist -- always had been.

Perhaps your criminal mischief suspect just had a bad night. But I have to wonder if someone had some doubts at his Board of Review a few years ago.

Wow. What a great topic!

My favorite Scouting experience, for years, was the district Pinewood Derby when I was a Bear Scout. In Boy Scouts, I had many. But summer camps as a whole probably topped them. TLT was also an awesome experience.

As an adult, National Camp School was the best -- until I went through Woodbadge.

It's tough to say. . . Seeing my only son cross over during his Arrow of Light ceremony was very special. My Woodbadge experience, and the friends that resulted from it, was also special. I would say it's a tie between the two.

>>It is apparent that I touched a nerve that I did not mean to touch, and appologize for doing so.

>>Adults have learning curves too. This has been a SM for less than a year. Dealing with difficult scouts is not something that BSA training effectively addresses (my opinion - feel free to differ, if you left a weekend of training and were prepared to work with troubled boys and able to turn them around.)>This is only learned through experience, and the only way we get experience is by making mistakes.

I think that the Scout was 1st Class rank, in spite of the repeated poor behavior, is an indication the Scoutmaster and/or the Board of Review were not familiar with the advancement requirements. Last time I checked, the requirement about demonstrating Scout spirit and living the Scout Oath and Law were a part of every rank advancement. Understandably, everyone has his moments. But, it sounds like the Scout in this case was deviant on a regular basis. How did he make it past a SM conference and Board of Review? Was he a good guy turned bad all-of-a-sudden?

I am also concerned that a leader would manage to allow a young Scout to call his bluff on such a ridiculous and unenforceable threat. Not only does this leader need training before being allowed responsiblity for a troop of boys, he needs to be specifically warned to ease up on the throttle. Such empty threats only invite future misbehavior problems. Additionally, they don't exemplify the Core Values of Scouting. Maybe this guy just lost his cool. Perhaps he also needs a few qualified ASMs to assist him.

To anyone who cannot find any rule about ranks being revokable, I urge you to call your council registrar and suggest it. You'll find out that it does not happen. And why would anyone really bother? If the Scout is that unworthy, warn him and work with him. If he shows no improvement, send him packing.

My two cents. . . for what they're worth.

I'm from the East Texas Area Council -- Longview, I reckon. Thanks for the kind welcome.

Good morning. I had actually stopped by looking for an answer (found through a Google search) and decided to create a user account.

I recently handed over the Cubmaster patch after three years (my son crossed over) and still serve as Asst. Cubmaster. I've also served as committee member for my old troop since 2000. My son is there now, on the 1st Class Trail. I'm involved in a myriad of Scouting activities beyond this, including our district daycamp where I serve as director and the district committee, where I am marketing chair. I guess you could say that I haven't learned to say "no".

I'm Arrow of Light class of 1980. Eagle class of 1987. I am proud to be a member of the best patrol in the history of Woodbadge -- the SR751 TexLa Fox Patrol. I earned my beads in Oct., 2006.

I have a lot more questions than answers (which is why I'm here). But, I'm glad to help anyone whenever I can.