Speedy's DAD

I am a relatively new Scoutmaster and a very new Ordeal Member so this may seem like a silly question. I have two Assistant Scoutmasters that I think would make good candidates for membership. I was given a nomination form to fill out for them and I am having a hard time answering the questions about abilities. As I understand it the main function of Adults is to drive and faclilitate and stay out of the Youth leaders way. What abilities are needed for adults to "perform the necessary functions"? What skills and abilities "fulfill the purpose of the Order of the Arrow"

So, if your troop doesn't have an official troop headgear or they have voted not to have a hat, are you not allowed to wear a hat at all?

Well this discussion has really gone in a totally different direction than I expected it to go.

While the example I posted at the beginning is a true to life example, my questions were really intended to be more general in nature and certainly in reference to more serious behavior.

I would also say that my fellow Scouters responses have once again made me rethink my position on the issue. In terms of the actual example I gave I certainly did not mean to imply that the issue would necessarily affect a Scouts advancement. Just that a general discussion of honesty and the long term effects of being untruthful in all aspects of our lives might be a topic of discussion.

My questions were more about generally bringing up behavior outside of Scouting in a Scoutmaster conference.

>>I don't think we ought to shy away from things that we see as being wrong.

I believe that if we can find a way to talk to the Scout, without being judgmental. We open the door for him to take a look at his choices and his ethics.

Isn't this what we are supposed to be doing anyway? >I assume what you mean by not being judgmental is that we confront the behavior and the decision making process behind it, not the scout.>The size of the ethical choice isnt as important as a consistent guidance because consistency is the foundation of integrity.

Thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for. It also answered a number of other questions my Troops parents had.

I have a number of younger Scouts that are under 60 inches tall. Is the Doctor's assesment, that the Scout's weight is proportionally appropriate, acceptable or is a body fat percentage measurement required since he isn't on the chart? This is for Summer Camp but we want the forms to be acceptable for any activity. (We don't currently do any high adventure.)

I originally posted this in the Scouting the Web Forum.

Almost all social media, including email, have an age limit to set up an account.

When you sign up for an account the sites generally ask for your birthdate and age and will deny you an account if you are under age. Their Terms of Use specifically prohibit use by anyone under the age of 13. (including almost all email services, Facebook, Twitter, IM, Chat, etc.)

So, if a Scout is under the age of 13 he is violating their terms of service when he signs up for the account and is continuing to violate it every time he uses the site. He had to lie to get the account. He is therefore also violating the Scout Oath and Law. And by knowing that he is under the age of 13 you are contributing to his lie if you use those accounts to communicate with him.

So, my questions are: How do you respond to a violation of the Scout Oath/Law by a Scout, that takes place outside of Scouting? And DO you respond? And do you believe that as a leader you have an obligation to talk to a parent about such violations that you become aware of to be sure they are aware?

Almost all social media, including email, have an age limit to set up an account.

When you sign up for an account the sites generally ask for your birthdate and age and will deny you an account if you are under age. Their terms of use specifically prohibit use by anyone under the age of 13.

So, if a Scout is under the age of 13 he is violating their terms of service when he signs up for the account and is continuing to violate it every time he uses the site. He had to lie to get the account. He is therefore also violating the Scout Oath and Law. And by knowing that he is under the age of 13 you are contributing to his lie if you use those accounts to communicate with him.

In my opinion you should only communicate with the Scouts who are under the age of 13 through their parents accounts. And this would also be a topic of conversation with a Scout in a Scoutmaster conference or Board of Review as well as a possible word to the parent to be sure they are aware of the account and the Terms of Service age limits.

Our Pack and Troop put together a cookout last weekend to feed the people in one of the areas damaged by the storms that came through Raleigh, NC on the 16th. What started out as a Wolf Den making a few sandwiches turned into about 80+ Scouts and Scouters from across our district (Neuse River district) feeding over 200 families over 2 days with grilled chicken, hamburgers and hot dogs, ham sandwiches and various side dishes all donated by local businesses and individuals. I was amazed at the outpouring of so many.

So many have lost so much. The fury of those storms cannot be fathomed unless you see the damage up close, in person.

One of the saddest things is that we ended up delivering most of the meals on foot or by vehicle to the people because we found that they would not come to where we were set up to feed them due to fear of looters. To have lost so much and still be afraid of losing more to the scum of the earth is just hard to imagine.

As I came home each night after helping to feed those people, I looked around at my humble abode and thanked God for the safety of my family and His many Blessings. You just don't know what you've got till its gone.

For those still in the thick of it, I'm praying for you.

For those of you who can, I urge you to donate or go help out. This is going to be a long recovery and rebuilding process for thousands. And they can't (and shouldn't have to) do it alone. They need our help.

Remember the Scout Oath. "On my honor........"

I am interested in building a members only forum for our troop website. I would like to set up something with the same look and feel of the SCOUTER Forums but it needs to be something somewhat easy to build and maintain.

Any ideas of not too expensive forum software that is not too difficult for people who are not highly computer literate? We are currently using Google Sites for our website and Google Groups for our discussion board. Google groups just does not work for what we are trying to do. A former Adult member of our troop suggested Concrete 5 but it seems a little over our heads and we are not particularly interested in redoing our whole web site right now, just want to add the forum. Maybe a stand alone forum that we could just link to from our site or if there is something compatible with Google Sites other than Google Groups. We really like the way the SCOUTER Forums work.

Any suggestions, thoughts, ideas?

Ok, I know we changed the Boy Scout shoulder loops to green with the Centennial Uniform, but the online Insignia Guide at scouting.org says red loops. Have they changed back to Red loops or have they just not bothered to update the Online Insignia Guide for several years now? The inspection sheet from 2008 shows green loops. I do wish they would be consistant and update everything when they make changes.

Well, I think it just generally goes along with the direction of society in general that we have to have a rule for everything to protect us from ourselves. Somewhere along the line society began to believe that we must take the risk out of life. And many of those who do take a risk, whether intentionally or without thinking it through, have been convinced that if something goes wrong it is someone elses fault and someone owes them something for taking that risk. There is no such thing in our society as an "accident" or natural consequences any more.

IMHO life is for living and that means accepting a certian amount of risk in everything we do. If something goes wrong I accept responsibility for my part in it, I pick myself up, dust myself off, and I move on without looking around to see who I can blame.

Although I am sure it did not start out that way, it has become a repository for rules to eliminate any perceived risk and protect us from ourselves so we don't take any risks.

Stepping off of soapbox now.

You know, The real basics of the matter is that if the uniform was less expensive or more reasonably affordable, most of the other arguments about uniforms would go away. National needs to find a uniform that is more reasonably priced. Now, my troop is a fully uniformed troop and I and my son both have multiple full uniforms. But to be honest, I can see that in these economic times when many are making hard choices about what to spend money on it is difficult to justify spending $50 on a pair of pants when you already have a $10 or $15 pair of jeans he can wear. I mean sure you may be able to find a pair of used pants or used shirt on ebay or craigslist, but that is more the exception than the rule. And in my area Scout clothes get worn out, not often handed down through a uniform closet.

I mean, really, why does a pair of unhemmed, zip off cargo pants in olive green cost $50.00 or a Tan, cotton/polyester blend shirt with a couple of extra pockets cost $30. Get the cost down more in line with budget clothing and you will see less complaining and justifying and more scouts in full uniform. IMHO.

I posted this in another thread, but here seems a more appropriate place to post it.

I must admit that I have often been accused of over using logic, but here goes.

"Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish."

It clearly indicates that there are legitimate Scouting uses for sheath knives. It says "Avoid" them not 'Don't Carry them'. The Boy Scout Motto says "Be Prepared". How else can a Scout be prepared unless he has it with him when it is needed?

"We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility."

If we have a "duty" to teach "how to use, handle and store legally owned knives", How can we fulfill that duty if a Scout is not allowed to carry one? And just as importantly, how can a Scout ever become proficient in these things if he does not practice? How many of us have seen Scouts "pass off" a requirement for advancement and then never practice it, only to forget how to do it 6 months later. Becoming proficient is one of the most important parts of "concern for safety and responsibility".

My Troop does not have a written policy banning sheath knives, and most of our boys don't carry one. But it is frustrating when our Council (and other) camps do ban them. And quite often they don't even know why they do, (this was stated to me by more than one camp director) but the policy just keeps showing up in leaders guides event after event because someone thinks it is BSA policy. And so far we have not hit on the right way to go about getting it permanently removed from their policies.

As for my Troop, we are fulfilling our Duty.

I must admit that I have often been accused of over using logic, but here goes.

"Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish."

It clearly indicates that there are legitimate Scouting uses for sheath knives. It says "Avoid" them not 'Don't Carry them'. The Boy Scout Motto says "Be Prepared". How else can a Scout be prepared unless he has it with him when it is needed?

"We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility."

If we have a "duty" to teach "how to use, handle and store legally owned knives", How can we fulfill that duty if a Scout is not allowed to carry one? And just as importantly, how can a Scout ever become proficient in these things if he does not practice? How many of us have seen Scouts "pass off" a requirement for advancement and then never practice it, only to forget how to do it 6 months later. Becoming proficient is one of the most important parts of "concern for safety and responsibility".

My Troop does not have a written policy banning sheath knives, and most of our boys don't carry one. But it is frustrating when our Council (and other) camps do ban them. And quite often they don't even know why they do, (this was stated to me by more than one camp director) but the policy just keeps showing up in leaders guides event after event because someone thinks it is BSA policy. And so far we have not hit on the right way to go about getting it permanently removed from their policies.

Yeah, Eagle92, my troop has been to Camp Charles a few times and we are having our Bridging Ceremony there the weekend of the 19th of March. We are Bridging up about 14 Scouts from our pack. We do like Camp Charles. Our troop likes the variety.

A major factor for us would be the age and experience level of our Scouts. Right now we have about 90 percent new Scouts. They have not had much experience camping period, much less camping in extremes. And given the rarity of extreme cold and large amounts of snow it is not likely that they will ever get much experience around here. Now that is not to say we wont camp in the snow, we did camp in the snow (about 1 - 2 inches) once last year, (you should have seen the boys faces when they woke up to find their tents covered in snow) but we most likely would cancel in the event of one of those below zero weekends or 22 inch snow storms like we got back in 2000.

Those of you up north give us a hard time about being paralyzed by a 1 inch snow event but down here we don't, generally, have the equipment to clear the roads and the snow driving experience like you do up North and out West, so we largely stay home, and those that don't, inevitably get into trouble. (Note: I use the term "we" loosely, it takes more that a couple of inches to slow me down)

I am just ending my first year as an ASM, but it is my hope that the experiences of camping that our Scouts receive will whet their appetite for camping in other parts of our Great Country. And will encourage them to someday experience the thrill of 8 foot snow drifts and -40 degree temperatures, but it would be foolish of me to think that the experiences they receive around here will fully prepare them for those extremes. It just isn't possible for them to become fully prepared for that around here.

You know, that brings to mind the fact that that is one of the great things about this forum, I get to hear about others experiences across this Country in a manner that I can relate to from a Scouting perspective. And I get to live those experiences through others stories of their experiences. ........Ain't it grand.

For those of you who live in areas that regularly have extreme temperatures and snow, I would expect that you would have the experience and be prepared for (as the OP put it) "weather being too extreme".

I don't know where the OP is located but as for my area (central NC) extreme cold and ice/snow are so rare that we don't have the equipment for it. So if we had a trip planned and were suddenly expecting "extreme" weather I can assure you that we would consider our limitations and cancel the trip. And it would not have anything to do with not being properly prepared but would be exercising basic good judgement since we don't have equipment or experience for extremes.

There is "building confidence" and there is also over confidence. Safety always comes first. That is our job as leaders. For those of you who think weather is no reason to cancel a trip, where is the line that you wont cross? In different areas of the country we have different measuring sticks for "extreme" and "preparedness". What is extreme for me may be a walk in the park where you live but my leaders, Scouts, and equipment might not be prepared for your extremes and pressing on for the sake of "character building" would be foolish for my Troop.

I think giving any leader a hard time for using basic good judgement and canceling an outing because he knows his Scouts are not prepared for it is an example of the kind of thinking that gets Scouts (and or their leaders) hurt or killed. Another important part of being a Scout is using good judgement and for our Scouts to learn it Leaders must be an example of it.

I have to agree with Twocubdad on the issue of matching the scouts with instruction on the requirements they need. Most boys will have bridged up around the March timeframe and any good troop will have immersed their scouts in the T-2-1 requirements by June/July when they go to summer camp.

At a summer camp that my troop attended last year all of our first year scouts were placed in a patrol together in the FYS Program and the staff patrol guide was given (in advance) a list of the requirements the boys had already completed with assurances that they would work on other requirements in addition to retouching on some of the completed requirements. However at the end of the week the boys were complaining that they had done very little towards requirements they had not completed. Most of our boys were well on there way thru tenderfoot and were hoping to get more of second class and first class requirements. Although we were not expecting the boys to complete T-2-1 we were expecting them to have something to show for the week invested that they did not have when they went.

I think FYS Programs should be flexible enough to cover requirements that the majority of the patrol needs.

I also like the pocket T-2-1 booklets. That gives us a chance to check them on proficiency before signing them off on a skill. That is something that you can do in the free time in the evenings back at the troop camp site. The boys realy like showing what they have learned. And that way they can still possibly get some things signed off before returning from summer camp. Many of our boys hold onto those booklets for the next several camping trips so they have a reminder of what they need to be getting signed off on when they have an opportunity to.(This message has been edited by Speedy's Dad)

Yep, got that one too. Also a flashlight app.

I would like to see more of the publications, forms, pamphlets, booklets, cards etc. in a format specifically for the Android and Ipod/Iphone, to make it easier to take with you. PDF format would work but making it specifically for the small form factor phones and searchable would be better. Even the handbooks for leaders to use for reference.

I started to say I wish someone would make some more apps for the Android platform. But then I started looking on my Droid 2 and I have the Dutch Oven calculator app, the G2SS in Adobe format and of course a compass app, a gps app, a maps app and a KnotsGuide app, The US Army Survival Guide and a First Aid App, a CPR app, the Geocaching.com app, the US Army Bugle Calls app, Google calendar, an alarm clock app, a Kindle app, an Air Horn app, a camera, an emergency kit organizer app, a ham radio EchoLink app, a stop watch and timer app, a Weather Radar app,............. and just in case a Star Trek Tricorder app.

What else would I need?

I will be attending Wood Badge starting this weekend, and I am trying to make sure my uniform is correct and will pass inspection.

I was looking at the Adult Leader Uniform Inspection Sheet and on the right sleeve the Quality Unit Award is shown at 4 inches from the shoulder seam to the bottom of the QU Patch. It does not show location or space for a Wood Badge Patrol emblem patch. On the Boy Scout Uniform Inspection Sheet it shows the Patrol Patch and the QU Patch is 4 inches from the shoulder seam to the top of the patch. In the notes on both sheets it does not say specifically 4 inches to the top or to the bottom, it just shows the 4 inch measurement in the diagram. Is it supposed to be 4 inches to the top or to the bottom, or does it matter?

Of course at this time I don't have a Wood Badge patrol patch (since i have not started the course yet). So the first question is, is the Wood Badge Patrol Patch approved for the Adult uniform? And the second question is, should I place the QU patch at 4 inches to the bottom and then have to move it when I get a Wood Badge Patrol patch to make room for the WB Patrol patch, or can I leave room for the WB Patrol patch and place the QU patch at 4 inches to the top and leave that space empty? And if I leave the space is 4 inches to the top enough room for proper placement of the patch?

I checked the online version of the Insignia Guide at the BSA website and they have Wood Badge listed in the index but no link to any info on the patch.

I just want to make sure I (and my patrol, whoever they may be) don't get dinged for not having it in the right place.

I know there are a lot of pre-made first aid kits available but they don't have some things and often have things not needed.

We are trying to build a kit for our troop for about 10 to 20 scouts for weekend camping and hiking trips. If you were building a kit from scratch, what would you put in it?

Thanks alot, I will contact the Scout Shop tomorrow.

Does any one know where to buy the swim tags like they use at most summer camps. Our local Scout store does not have them and neither does scoutstuff.org. We are making our own buddy tag board and the scouts who went to summer camp have their tags but those who are taking their test locally do not. We would like to have them all match to make it easier to see who has passed the test and who has not yet passed.

OK, I've seen several posts about this issue but not a lot of discussion.

If a Scout has earned his Whittling Chip as a Webelo and then bridges to Boy Scouts, shouldn't he continue to have the privilege to carry a knife (only) as a Boy Scout, as long as he carries his whittling chip card and uses it properly, until such time as he earns his Totin Chip and is permitted to handle all wood tools?

It is hard to justify telling a Scout that just because he has gotten older and moved up he has suddenly lost his privilege to carry his knife even though he has not done anything to warrant losing it.