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Smithgall

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Posts posted by Smithgall

  1. i would have handled it just as you did. if the alternative worked for you then just take the alternative site and go with it. Frustating as it may be.

     

    We had a very similar experience. We were doing a kayak trip and at our half way point was a camp with "cabins" (which were really just screened in 10x10 rooms) we had about 13 people with us, kids and adults. When we go to the site there was a troop that had about 50 people camping. They claimed they had the cabins (still not sure who screwed up) and we could use the primitive campsite. problem was we didnt bring any tents as we were kayaking and it was going to rain. Fortunately they "allowed" us to have one of the cabins for all of us. we werent very happy but it worked. however when we woke up in the morning we noticed that the other troop had tents all over the place and only 2-3 people in their cabins. so while we slept nearly on top of each other they were spread out everywhere and also took the entire pavillion. Not much scout spirit from them

  2. i defnitely would not want to wear knee high socks. I know they do serve a function but not only do they look silly (today they do. 25 years ago i wore knee high tube sock, go figure) but they are hot and my legs are hairy so its makes then itch.

  3. Le Voyageur, the organization you mentioned is where we started. One of our parents is retired navy and he was the first one to recognize some thing that were clearly wrong. we all suspected but none of us were in the navy so it was a suspicion. the other parent contacted the orginization and they gave him questions to ask like his swim buddy, class number, etc. It worked just like they said. He claimed classified for all of it and left the room. since then the orginization pulled his record and confirmed his job and rank as not a seal. whats really bad is that he needed no hype. No one cares. You are there for the boys. If you are there for right reasons then thats noble enough.

  4. Eagle- we thought the same thing. We assumed the council would be all over it. Since then we have learned that the council is relatively hands off. In some respects i see that they choose to allow the charter to handle it but at the same time, what if your charter doesnt really value what we are doing? Its seems some charters have good intentions but really dont know much about scouts or take to heart what we are all about. When something like a merit badge is forged they may not see it as an insult to all the boys who work hard to actually earn it. its been a learning process thats for sure.

     

    Lisa is right, the charter has the burden of policing the troop in that way.

     

    to update we did leave the troop. Its a shame because the advancement chair, two ASM's, the treasurer, 3 comitee member, and 5 boys including the ASPL all left. we did start a new troop and as luck would have the pastor of the new church is a former eagle so he gets what scoust is about and we can start with a good foundation. only problem is that we are currently a troop of 5 boys and one of them is really a part timer. so recruitment is a big focus. luckily the new church also has a newer pack and they need some den chiefs for their weblos so it gives us a feeder pack. wish us luck

  5. people such as the original poster and some of his more fervant supporters never cease to amaze me. I haver never understood this utter outrage towards gay people. i know so many gay people i could not even count them all. I probabaly no more than that because many people are closeted and would never let on that they were gay. even with such exposure I go to bed everynight with the same woman i started dating when we were 16 and never once think that my marriage or our worls is being threatened by two guys living sharing a life together. you may not like gays and that is your right. in fact i defend your right to have that opinion although i disagree with it. However you must atleast face the fact that the boys in our troops are going to go into a world that is far smaller and far more diverse than it was when we were kids and when our parents were kids. To set them up to hate or to be intolerant is to do a disservice to them.

     

    i never expect to change people mind on this issue. Its like abortion its so internalized that people have typically formed an opinion and they will not waiver. But again you should atleast refrain from silly commenst such as uniform being designed by gay people. How ridiculous is that? And incidently you dont have to be a "bleeding heart liberal" to believe that world is made up of many types and that we should be more tolerant

  6. WOW! thats incredible. I cant imagine anyone making much of a distinction between step and bio parent. I wish i had your problem. i went 6 months as the only father in the troop besides the scoutmaster who was a step father. No other fathers at all. i woudl have welcomes any father, step fathers, older brothers, uncles. Just some other men. Not that i dont like women but it would be nice to see some adults that know what its like to have been a boy.

     

    If you are truly interested in the wellbeing of this boy and you and he have a good relationship then to heck with what they think.

  7. we have about 5 troops in our middle school area and one is a "no women" troop. We joke with them that they are the "he man - women haters club". I dont agree with it and think its bit out dated. If this were leave it to beaver and everyone had a mom and dad at home that would be one thing but there are simply too many single moms that have a right to experience scouting with their sons.

     

    As for the younger sister. no way. Its a boyscout campout. If its family weekend sure but of not then its only scouts.

     

    One of our local SM's makes all attending adults be registered and fully trained including IOLS before they can come on a campout. his thinking is that he wants leaders not parents on a campout. I really like that and to me if she understands boy lead, patrol method, pitch their own tents, etc. she will be less likely to try and help her baby.

  8. i dont think the uniform itself drives kids away. however what it stands for may not appeal to them. I have never known a kid that dropped out of little league or pop warner because of the uniform. They are usually quite proud to wear their jersey because it tells the world they are ball players. Unfortunately the squeaky clean image of the boyscout just doesnt fit what many kids think is cool so they avoid it.

     

    That being said, i do think the new looser, longer cargo style shorts is more appealing to the kids that are in today.

  9. we lawys do. The boys typically dont complain. I have been to truck stops an the like when i have traveled and run across a bunch of boyscouts. There is something neat about seeing boyscouts in their uniform. Assuming they are acting like scouts its a great way to show the world that we are proud to be scouts. When we get where we are going the shirts normally come off and the class b's are what we wear all weekend. thats not bad either because if you had a particularly grubby camp that weekend you can throw on the class A that was hanging up nice and clean.

  10. I like the new one especially the new material. We live in florida where we joke that we have two seasons, summer and february. the heat and humidity makes the new material ideal. it also dries very quickly. I do however that the material doesnt look as neat. you can pull it out of the dryer, throw it on and within 5 minutes it looks like you have been wearing all weekend. its a more rugged look than the old one. I also like the muted color scheme and the baseball hat.

     

    however i do know that nearly every woman i have spoken to hates the chest pockets. My only realy complaint is the fit of the shirt sleeves. Im an average size guy about 190. Not huge muscled arms but the long sleeves have that loop thing that is supposed to keep them roled up. I can get the sleeves rolled up that far without them being way to tight. Could have been cut a little looser in the sleever. That my only real complaint. all in all it seems a little more functional as a working uniform and not just a "show" uniform. if that makes sense.

  11. I ran across the site for patchtown.com and they have all sorts of fun patrol patches. they state that they are not official patches. are there "official" patrol patches or can we use some of these fun ones. I think we have about 12 boys on the roster but really only 5 show up on any regular basis and they are all between 11-13. Thought these young guys might like to consider some of these fun patrol names and patches but didnt want to present it if its not allowed. cant find anything in the handbook on this one way or another

  12. ScoutNut. thank you for finally stating what i have been asking all along

     

    "Trust that if a person was denied membership for any extremely serious reason, your CO would have also taken steps to restrict this person's contact with their youth. If you have any questions about that, once again, CONTACT YOUR CO."

     

    This is exactly what i have been asking. If the problem is serious would we be notified. Short of notification having the persons contact be limited is a fine solution. that is all i have ever asked. I will assume because of the nature of your responses that you are a long time scouter and this know how these thing must be handled. By stating upfront that someone with a serious problem would be limited you could have answered this question.

     

    as for your other point. I do not think you understand the situation well enough. The SM became the scoutmaster the month that we joined the troop. Until then he has been a merit badge counselor for about 6 months. When my wife and I joined there were three active comitee members. our troop on average has only about 5 boys show up. For the first 6 months i was in the troop i was the only father that attended anything, even meetings. So you see i may be new and would gladly defer to the scoutmaster and all the other leadership that you assume exists but its simply not there. My year and half makes me an old timer with the troop.

     

    maybe i am way off. But if you had a troop this size with no parental involvment and a brand new scoutmaster with no scouting experience (less than us in fact since he had not gone through cubscouts with his stepson) what would you do? I know I know contact the CO.. I really dont beleive that is the cureall that you think it is but we can agree to disagree.

  13. i have always wondered where the sheath knife got such a bad rap. I really dont know the safety difference between a 3 inch lock blade and a 3 inch fixed blade. When being used its just as safe or dangerous as the user handling it. The only thing i can see is that its some holdover from boys trying to bring rambo knives so the sheath knife got labeled as bad and not the length as it should have been. although you could argue that a long fixed blade is still not dangerous in and of itself

     

    as for the banning of the any knives dont be suprised if that does come up some day. We live in a society that has tried to remove all risk. Unfortunately people get injured and die doing things everyday. As tragic as these things are, sometimes they are simply accidents. Trying to regulate accidents away is a fools mission. Boyscouts represents so many "dangers". we camp outside in the heat or the cold, we eat food that kids prepare, we walk in the woods with animals, we handle knives, axes, fire, bb guns, rifles, shotguns, motor boats, Oh my gosh we must be nuts. to think my son does all that and yet he couldnt bring a compass to school (the kind with a pencil on one end and a pint on the other for drawing circles) I mean really how many kids get killed by a compass.

     

    Its the mamby pambying of America.

  14. Scoutnut. im have reread your post a few times as i do not want to make the mistake you seem to have made and jump to conclusions that are not supported by what was written. you ask why i am trying to set policy since i am relatively new (1.5 years as an ASM. Exactly how many years does one need to put in before their opinion is warranted. How many years do i need to be involved before i am allowed to pose a hypothetical question? thats kind of asinine logic isnt it? If you do in fact beleive that i should have more years experience before i should be allowed to ask questions then how far do you take that logic? Based on that way of thinking the only members on a commitee should be old time scouters. Not new parents because they do not yet have the required time to be able to have an opinion. Should new fathers not be involved as assistants? Im just looking for a number of how many years you think would be good. Additionally when you imply 1.5 years is not enough could you also break that down to the level of involvement. Do you believe a parent that comes to every campout, is an ASM, has been fully trained, goes to University of Scouting, and has attended all the events but has ONLY been doing this for 1.5 years is less qualified than the parent that drives by, tosses the kid out and picks them up a few hours later..but has been doing that for 5 years?

     

    Whenever I hear someone say that time has anything to do with quality, ability or value i have to laugh. I will be 40 next year. When I was about 3 my dad gave me a golf club. So for 37 years I have been a terrible golfer. i suck at it. never took lessons, just play maybe three times a year and really dont care if i ever play again. However i do have 37 years in so at this point i guess i am qualified to give Tiger some advice, if we are simply counting years of involvment.

     

    Ok all sarcasm aside

     

     

    i am not sure why you think that I am trying to set policy for the troop.

    Please go back and read my original post. I was asking the forum a hypothetical question. I stated very clearly we do not have a problem with the woman that was denied but it brings up the question of when is it appropriate to let people know. as for spreading rumors, what rumors were spread? Again if you read what i actually wrote you will not in anyway determine that I have spread any rumors about this woman. In fact i state very clearly i do not wish to air her dirty laundry. i did not determine the reason for her denial, as i said i was not even aware she had been denied. The CC let it slip at a meeting and that brought us to the question of when would council warn you or not. that is all i am asking. I am not trying to make any policy, I am not even addressing this particular incident. we discussed the question and i thought maybe someone here would have an answer.

     

    What i was trying to determine is where is the line drawn or is it ever. You have a jane Doe parent that got busted with a joint years ago at a rock concert..not abig deal (to me)... Then you have another potential comitee member that just got paroled after 15 years for rape and now is now married and wants to bring his stepson.. that seems like a problem (again to me). Obviously these are the two extremes but somewhere in the middle lies the line that gets crossed.

     

    please recognize that haveing an academic discussion is a way to bring to light potential areas for improvment and prevention. however the effort is wasted if the premise is misread and not understood.

  15. It is reasonable to have background checks done on campout parents. As i state it would not have uncovered the parent with no arrests in his background but it will either disuade someone with a background issue or bring an issue to light. Think of it this way. If you dont do a background check on a campout parent you are then in the weird position of making the comitee secretary a more thoroughly investigated position that that of a person going along with the boys. Does that make sense? Again until this issue with the molested boy came up I never really thought about it and then when we had the woman denied recently it brought it up again. Seems i am the minority on this issue. Perhaps i am making too much out of it

     

    i agree the YP methods are a fantastic way to avoid nearly all issues that could come up. Obviously nothing is fool proof but if you do follow them religiously, as someone said, then you avoid many issues.

     

    I also agree having a cop look up a visit to someones house is an abuse of power and its correct that it certainly in no way indicates a wrong doing on the part of the people at the home. Ive had police called to my house once because my neighbor didnt like my dog barking. this was probably 15 years ago. No note from the neighbor, no phone call, nothing. Just a knock on the door from the police. So i fully appreciate the difference between a visit and an arrest. Even an arrest is not a proof of wrong doing because it is not a guilty verdict.

  16. I wonder the same thing. i knwo some other people have said its too much but really most law enforcement info is oublic knowledge anyway. If you have been arested it will show up if you know where to look. the cops have all that data in a nice easy to use database and they also have the info you dont know. Like if the cops were called to your house but you were not arrested. Its a fine line for two resons. one the cop really isnt supposed to to tell you this info so you run a problem for the cop. however at the same time the facts are the facts. In my case some people have said you "snoop" into someones background. I dont know that i agree with that. First of all if its public info its not really snopping. If the facts are the facts then the person cant do a whole lot. Your opinion is one thing but stating the fact is another. You are a drunk and i dont want my kid riding with you is your opinion. You have a dui from a year ago and i dont want my kid riding with you is a fact.

     

    Im a little sensitive to this because i am aware of a father that used to go on campouts with the boys and only after the kid aged out did it come out the the father was molesting the boy. Nnow its true that since the father had never been arested no background check would have shown that. But as i said earlier, Since i have the ability to check i want to check.

     

    I guess it comes down to what is more important, the risk to the kids or the privacy of the parents.. its not an easy question. One solution as far as campouts is to have any parents that want to go must have background check. that is a reasonable solution.

  17. Hal - you are right that I may not have all the facts. i didnt find the information to begin with so you are right there may be more i dont know. I guess to be more accurate i coudl say she was denied AND she has domestic violence issue. I cant say that the denial was directly related because council does not tell you these things. But my question comes from this lack of information. If someone is denied a leadership/comittee role due to a background check is there a responsibility on the part of council to caution parents. After all its not like they are denied for bad credit.

  18. That is funny. I can see where it is a gateway to the outdoors but come on. We started out in weblos with the big taj mahal tent and the i quickly got tired of the weight and the setup. Now my wife and i sleep in the two man tent and my son has a one man. I guess its different strokes for different folks. But when our Scoutmaster and his Comitee chair wife show up with their taj mahal with seperate screened in patio area and portable toilet that she keeps in the tent (YUCK!!!) i can help but laugh. My brother is the same way when he goes "camping" with his 5th wheel trailer parked in an asphalt pad next to 30 other trailers. is that really camping or is it just mobile hoteling?

    S

  19. I am late reading this but i will be sending the link to my 12 year old son. As an ASM this is my worst nightmare. As a unrelated party i see it as a terrible accident that was tragic but not criminal. This one of those situations where its avoidable only if you can count on every boy to do the right thing at all times. it goes to show we should always be safety minded and never take for granted that an older boy knows better and only the younger boys need safety talks.

  20. This question came up and i am really curious about the answer. We have a parent that was denied being a comitee member due to her background check. Because many records are public it was discovered that there had been some domestic violance issues between she and her husband.

     

    My question is since this information is not disclosed (by council) is it ever appropriate to let parents know? Im really torn because it doesnt make sense to pulicize this womans dirty laundry but at the same time if we dont know there is an issue then we run the risk of sending boys over to a parents house that may be dangerous. because not all things are scout events such as birthday parties and graduations etc. we often interact outside of scout rules.

     

    We dont really have and issue it just brought up the hypotheical questions of when is it appropriate. What if the parent had a recent DUI, drug charge, sex offender. As an ASM i never knew she was even denied let alone what the problem was, so if the need arose to have several boys over at her house (she is an involved parent) I feel sort of responsible for putting them in a situation where there could be a issue. Again what if it were a DUI and she offers to drive some boys, Again i would feel responsible if something ever happened. the wiorse would of course be what if there were a sex charge, if i dont know then what if that adult want to attend a campout?

     

    This is one of those examples where knowing a little is worse than not know at all. Its not like i have checked out every neighborhood mom and dad. I dont even know the legal background of all our relatives so since i dont know i guess I am blissfully ignorant. But since BSA requires a background check i then kind of feel like i have a right to know.

  21. ScoutLDR- you are right. the mission may be classified but not the fact that they belong to the seals. Whats funny is that his brother actually accidently outed him but we didnt realize. At camp last year some boys mentioned that the scoutmaster was a seal and his brother (who was attending the trip) told the boys that the scoutmaster wasnt a seal and that he fuled jets. At the time we hadnt really come to the conclusion he was lying yet so we just thought the brother was ribbing the scoutmaster. now of course we look back and realize that he was actually telling the truth and just thought the boys were mistake and didnt realize they had been told that. Something else that tipped off the retired navy parent is that the scoutmaster said that when he wasnt doing his Seal work the navy would have him doing some work on the flight deck...I dont have an appreciation of what these jobs are so i dont remember what it was but apparently the general consensus of every other navy parent we have talked to is that there is no way the navy would have a seal doing this job on his down time. i get the sense that it woudl be like telling a surgeon that when he wasnt busy doing surgery he could go ahead and grab a mop and get to work until a big brain surgery case came up.

     

     

  22. I wanted to give an example of why scouts works and the value there is to be gained.

     

    We joined scouts as weblos and have now been in boyscouts since march of last year. Our troop is not a hiking/backpacking troop but after having spoken to other troop leaders that are into that, i have been working on my son to slim down his gear and focus on the weight and utility of what we bring to a campout. He got to the point where he brought a back pack that held all he needed and could pack and go in 15 minutes or so while other boys were litterally bringing 2-3 bags and one even brings a queen size inflatable matress.

     

    At the end of July i was laid off but we do alright and my wife suggested i take my son on a trip (i think she meant disney). Since he didnt have to be back to school until 8/24 i thought he and i should take a road trip. We packed our packs threw everything in the car and hit the road. We traveld from our home in florda across the country to LA. up to san Fran back through mount rushmore and down to florda again. Over 8000 miles and just a few days short of 3 weeks and we spent nearly all of it in a tent. We had no destination and only a few must sees (grand canyon, alcatraz, mount rushmore etc) since we had no schedule we carried a book of national parks and when we got to where we thought we needed to stop driving we looked up the nearest park and pitched the tent.

     

    Boy Scouts gave us both the ability to throw a tent up and cook outside. If it were not for scouts that trip would not have happened. Other than a few small touristy things we didnt hit any major traps. No disney, no 6 flags, not water parks. our enjoyment came from camping on a beach in texas or freezing our butts off outside the grand canyon (hot during the day 40's at night). We hiked more moutains that i can remember. For a florida boy it was a delight for him to hike up a trail and come across a water fall in utah or skip rocks in yellowstone lake (florida doesnt have rocks to skip really. You forget the simple pleasure of that)

     

    To be honest we did hit a few motel 6's. some night we just drove too long or once while in NM it was thundering and lighning pretty bad and i didnt want to be the tallest thing in the desert.

     

    There are so many skills you learn in scouts but the appreciation for nature is something that I dont think i realized was so important. Not once did he ask about his xbox or his laptop or wonder what shows were on. We did take an ipod that he listened to in a car (after all 8000 miles is a long time listening to your dad ramble on) and other than that we took playing cards and dominoes.

     

    its probably a once in a lifetime trip but man it was fun and scouts played a big part in it. If you ever get the opportunity take it. Even with gas and food the trip was far less that we have spent on cruises, or flying to NYC or other find trips. If you ever get the opportunity take it.

  23. our troop struggled with this and quite frankly im not sure what the good answer is. There were a few boys that had similar problems and the troop paid for their summer camp. In actuality it was a few parents that donated the money anonymously. The issue that came up is you have some parents that cant afford it and other parents that just dont care so dont pay and would just let the kid not go to summer camp or anything else. How do you know the difference? The one kid that we paid for was sent to summer camp without even $10 for spending money. how can you not find $10 bucks in the year between camps?

     

    Ultinmately the boy will suffere regardless of why the parents arent paying. This is an age old problem. we did insist that the boy work every fundraiser we held and his portion of the money went to tjose expenses. I think going forward i would rather see a partial amount like 50%. the boy raises X and the troop matches it. I dont want any boy to miss out on something but at the same time there has to be involvement from him and hopefully the parent as well.

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