skeptic
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Posts posted by skeptic
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https://www.cbalawfirm.com/news/ymca-sexual-abuse/
Just to remind some; the issue is not just one for BSA. Yet, even though this link certainly suggests the Y had just as many issues as BSA, I do not remember seeing any media stories that were tar and feathering them with the intensity of BSA. None of it is okay, but when do we stop somehow making BSA more of a pyria than others?
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Thinking a bit more about this thread, I think we are speaking of a variation of answers. Whose success are we perhaps trying to measure? The obvious answer appears to be the success of the youth. But we also can expand our discussion to the success of the adults who mentor the Scouts. And, we also then are reviewing the success of the program, which is variable, depending on the membership involved, and also the actual program in play. Each level and type of program and group may have different points of consideration, depending on how detailed we may choose to get. Ultimately though, we may not really see that measure of success until much later, sometimes even decades. One of the good things about hanging around for a long time is that I have been privileged to have a few past scouts speak directly to me about the positive things they realized, later. We all have heard, or if fortunate have experienced that. But I also have seen some youth fail themselves, and as an extension perhaps, our efforts. And, while we may take that measure from our own perspectives, the youth and even their families may not see the same evidence, positive or negative.
The fiasco that has played in the press and in the program is too real, yet when we look at the larger picture, and speak to the majority that went through the program, that tragedy is NOT the true picture. It is a dark spot or shadow that shaded into the overall successful program and lives of a very small percentage of the millions that have walked through. It is the ever present worst element of human nature and society that we allowed to creep in. But it does not negate the overwhelming positives, which reflect the brighter and better parts of human nature and society.
As I have now entered into my ninth decade, most of it having some touch of Scouting involved directly or peripherally, I mourn the known "failures", the youth that went down their own dark alleys, and the fine young people lost to things over which I, and we, have little or no control. It still comes down to the foundation on which BP and his many cohorts built it. Scout Spirit, when allowed to function, wins out. Maybe immediately, or maybe a decade later when you meet a youth you thought you lost, and they spend an hour telling you how they finally got it, and say thank you. Try to not dwell on the hard ones you know we lost, as I suspect most of the young people have better perspectives and are better parts of society, ones that in the best world would be running things. JMHO of course.
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2 hours ago, fred8033 said:
Liberal is in the eyes of the beholder. I mainly use it as humor. Political terms are assigned by the observer. My more old-fashioned friends call me a liberal. My new-age friends call me a conservative. I'm pretty sure I'm the same person; just not a simple label.
Ah, just not a simple label. Now we see clearly? Remember, it is against the law to remove some labels, or so it is said.
🙄
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4 hours ago, scoutldr said:
We are in a high military concentration area. While the Scouts were gathering on the parking lot for our weekly meeting one summer evening, a young man stopped in, saying he was a Eagle Scout in the Navy and wanted to get back to Scouting. Seemed nice enough. I tried contacting his home Council (Caddo) SE and never got a response to verify his creds. I had given him an app and explained that he couldn't participate until the background checks were done and he had council approval. Never saw him after that. I will always wonder if we dodged a bullet, or did we miss an opportunity.
Yes might be the answer to both or either. We had a similar incident or two where once it was made clear to someone they were not allowed to work until cleared, other than with other adults they disappeared. Follow the rules and it works most of the time.
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Okay, while I may be one of the few that might recall, but we are verging on the circus that the Forum shared when Bob White and our resident "Atheist" of the time exchanged loud typing. Reality, at least to me, is that IF we care about those building blocks on which Scouting is set, and IF we "do our best" to adhere to them, then we will serve the youth and society in a good way. Sadly, much of today's society does not appear to be ready for the balance that those ideals noted represent. Back to the Golden Rule and similar concepts. I fear some have possibly breached on here the thing we try to call to youth's attention called bullying. Most of bullying that we see is verbal or non physical, at least to start. But, the adage about "sticks and stones" only applies to a point. Always a balancing act, and none of us have an answer to most of the ills of current society, only ideas. As I have suggested though, they can be found in Scouting. As was said in the late depression and early WWII era, "BSA, America's Answer". Maybe?
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3 hours ago, fred8033 said:
Disposing of those you disagree is wrong. Some call it censorship. I call it a form of sin. People are no more disposable for their beliefs than their sexual orientation. We all need to work together.
I've always thought it should be obvious that there is a clear difference between forums like this where we discuss and exist for discussion. In-person working with youth and new leaders is different. That should be completely obvious. ... We as scouters should support all SCOUTS; period. I've seen that happen over and over again even when we disagree or question the situation. ... Heck, I'd even support liberals if they ever wanted to join scouting.
We don't purge people because of beliefs.
"Heck, I'd even support liberals if they ever wanted to join scouting." Guess I will need to scan through this, but wanted to just note, perhaps already done, that being Liberal or Conservative or something between has nothing to do with someone having an interest in Scouting. I probably know more people that would be "labeled" as that than would be labeled otherwise, all of whom support the basic ideals of Scouting and strive to grow the newer generations.
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You do the buddy system in some form. No absolute safety in the public domain, and no manner of "rules" or "dictates" will solve every possible issue.
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1 hour ago, skeptic said:
For me, the Atheist issue is mute. I say that because the definition of Atheist is a denial of God, and thus, a denial of "something", which negates their concept at the beginning. That is just me, and some can say I am nuts. Still, we always get to similar questions that at some point will necessitate accepting something we cannot see or explain. For many of us that is God, in some form or sense. Eighty years of life has strengthened this for me. Others must live with their own beliefs or lack thereof.
I should add that Scouting and the hundreds of outdoor experiences with them, especially my bed beneath the stars so many time, solidified a lot, though for some reason I again find myself searching. Possibly the hint of a trail nearing its apex could have something to do with that?
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For me, the Atheist issue is mute. I say that because the definition of Atheist is a denial of God, and thus, a denial of "something", which negates their concept at the beginning. That is just me, and some can say I am nuts. Still, we always get to similar questions that at some point will necessitate accepting something we cannot see or explain. For many of us that is God, in some form or sense. Eighty years of life has strengthened this for me. Others must live with their own beliefs or lack thereof.
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On a related note, there appears to be an April Fool joke posted on a Philmont site as well, something about turning Baldy into an image from Willy Wonka, a green toupee of sorts.
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This should be fun. Guess we will see how many will not over react?
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It depends on the person I suspect. There was a time I would have jumped at the opportunity if I could have worked it out. But, focus changes, and priorities do also. Likely a great experience if interactions happen that are worthwhile. I know that the best things I brought back from the jamborees I was able to attend were all NOT patches and such, but the meetings with other Scouters and youth from around the world and the U.S. But, the pressure schedules of many of the Scouters with whom I would liked to sit down and talk negated real substance, and I have never been able to get responses from the couple of contacts I attempted after it was all put to bed. Busy people with complicated lives, and if integral to National, not able to have a cracker barrel with someone they barely met and that is not on the same page in some cases.
The overall experiences there will not be lost. Similarly, my visits to PTC and on the trails at Philmont will always be valued and hold many good memories. They did allow some of the interactions I found missing in the Jambo's.
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With the ongoing back and forth relating to girls and boys and Scouting, I found this historical synopsis of the interactions of early youth serving groups being established very interesting. Take a look. It seems clear to me that major players in BSA, along with other groups of the time were very interested in girls and boys being involved, often together. Take a look.
Historical origins of Camp Fire
- by Alice Marie Beard
The organizational history and the story of the origins of Camp Fire are complex. There is the official version presented in the book Wo-He-Lo: The Camp Fire History, copyright 1980 by Camp Fire, Inc. Then there is the more complicated story of how the emergence of Camp Fire fits into the social picture of America. While the official version is accurate as far as it goes, the story is more complex than the official version, and more people deserve credit than only Dr. Luther H. Gulick (born 1865) and his wife, Charlotte Vetter Gulick (born 1865), the "official founders" of Camp Fire Girls.To understand the origins of Camp Fire, one must understand that, although Camp Fire does not carry the family name "Scouts," Camp Fire definitely is part of the scouting family in the USA. And to understand the origin of scouting in America, one must understand these two facts:
- The YMCA was strongly involved in getting Boy Scouts of America started.
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Although Boy Scouts of America was patterned after the Boy Scout movement that had just begun in England, it must be noted that England's Boy Scout movement was based on the earlier work of two men in America:
- Daniel Carter Beard, with his "Sons of Daniel Boone" and his 1882 book The American Boy's Handy Book.
- Ernest Thompson Seton, with his "Woodcraft Indians" and his magazine articles that were collected and published in the 1906 book The Birch Bark Roll of the Woodcraft Indians.
One also needs to realize that the various men involved in starting the Boy Scouts of America had wives and sisters, and that these various people knew each other, had frequent social interactions, and had social, professional, and educational relationships and friendships.
With that in mind, a more complete list of the founders of Camp Fire Girls would include the following, in addition to the Gulicks:
- Daniel Carter Beard, born 1850: author and illustrator.
- Adelia Belle Beard, born 1857 (sister of Daniel Beard): author and artist.
- Mary Caroline "Lina" Beard, born 1852 (sister of Daniel Beard): author and artist.
- Dr. Charles A. Eastman, born 1858: physician, author, and lecturer.
- Charles Hubert Farnsworth, born 1859: music teacher at Columbia University.
- Charlotte Alien Farnsworth (Mrs. Charles Farnsworth), born 1868: teacher at Columbia University, and head mistress of the Horace Mann School.
- William Chauncy Langdon, born 1871: poet and playwright.
- Ernest Thompson Seton, born 1860: author, wildlife artist, and executive officer of Boy Scouts of America.
- Grace Gallatin Seton (Mrs. Ernest Thompson Seton), born 1872: women's rights activist, book designer, and author (A Woman Tenderfoot, 1900).
- James E. West, born 1876: attorney and chief executive officer of Boy Scouts of America
- Mary Schenck Woolman, born 1860: President of the Women's Educational and Industrial Union, and Professor of Household Economics at Simmons College.
Daniel Carter Beard's book The American Boy's Handy Book was published in 1882. The book was full of ideas for boys about how to have fun: kite making, fishing, camping, making boats, making water telescopes, raising wild birds, hunting, making spring guns, trapping, sledding, having snowball wars, putting on puppet shows, making magic lanterns, making snow-shoes. In short, how to have fun being a boy in the outdoors.
Dan Beard had two sisters: Mary Caroline "Lina" Beard and Adelia Belle Beard. In 1887, five years after their brother's book was published, Lina and Adelia authored The American Girls Handy Book. Like their brother's book for boys, the Beard sisters' book was organized into seasonal activities. Subtitled "How to Amuse Yourself and Others," there were ideas for transplanting wildflowers, preserving the perfume of flowers, making Easter egg dolls, drying starfish, polishing shells, making corn-husk dolls and butterfly fans, painting china, entertaining, making candy.
This was over 20 years before Boy Scouts officially began. Both books were popular and well received. A generation grew up with these ideas of youth recreation with nature and in the outdoors.
In 1902, Ernest Thompson Seton began "Woodcraft Indians." He began the group because of something that had happened at his home in Connecticut in 1898: Some neighborhood boys had painted dirty words on his fence. He responded with forgiveness and invited the boys to camp on his property. From that camping experience grew Mr. Seton's "Woodcraft Indians." It was a group of boys learning outdoor skills and learning how to appreciate nature. Mr. Seton called that first group a "tribe" and added his own interpretations of Native American "flavor."
In 1905, while Dan Beard was editor of Recreation magazine, he began a group for young boys called "Sons of Daniel Boone." Its purpose was to show boys how to have fun outdoors, to teach good citizenship, and to promote conservation.
Mr. Seton frequently wrote of Native Americans, and he attempted to portray them accurately. For one of his books, he assembled a panel of Native American advisors, and this is where another player comes in: Dr. Charles A. Eastman, a physician whose medical degree was from Boston University Medical College and whose undergraduate degree was from Dartmouth. Before arriving at Dartmouth, Dr. Eastman had been known by the name "Ohiyesa." Dr. Eastman was a Sioux who had grown up on a reservation and became a fully licensed medical doctor. More later about Ohiyesa's contibutions to Camp Fire. For now, note that he began working for the YMCA in 1895.
Back to the Gulicks: Dr. Gulick was a ranking official with the YMCA from at least 1890 until at least 1911. By 1910, Mrs. Gulick was developing a girls' summer camp in Maine on Lake Sebago. The Gulicks and the Setons were friends. With encouragement from Mr. Seton, Mrs. Gulick decided that Amer-Indian lore and Amer-Indian ceremony would permeate her camp. She named the camp "WoHeLo," the first two letters of the words "work, health, & love."
While Mrs. Gulick was working with her Camp WoHelo in Maine in 1910, William Chauncy Langdon was helping the small town of Thetford, Orange County, Vermont, prepare for the celebration of the town's 150th anniversary that would happen in August 1911. Langdon wrote a pageant to be performed by the Thetford Boy Scouts, and the summer before the pageant was performed, Langdon's Boy Scouts were practicing and preparing for the pageant. The girls of Thetford wanted to be part of the activities also. Therefore, in advance of the pageant, Mr. Langdon organized the girls into a group as counterparts to the Thetford Boy Scouts. He created three ranks of achievement: Wood Gatherers, Fire Makers, and Torch Bearers, ranks still used in Camp Fire today.
Langdon was a poet, historical writer, and playwright. His plays were historical dramatizations, each telling the story of the people in a particular community. He called his dramatizations pageants and saw them as "distinct and individual art forms." Pageant of Thetford was his first pageant.
Helping Langdon with the planning for the 150th anniversary of Thetfort were, among others, Dr. Gulick, Ernest Thompson Seton, Professor Charles H. Farnsworth, Charlotte Alien Farnsworth, and Mary Schenck Woolman, all who were involved in one way or another with the formation of Camp Fire Girls.
Langdon's connection with Dr. Gulick was close: The two worked together in New York City at the Russell Sage Foundation. Most folks are familiar with the YMCA, but few have heard of the Russell Sage Foundation. It was established in 1907 "to improve social and living conditions in the United States." Located in New York City, it is a research center and a funding source for studies by scholars -- a "think tank."
Another detail to note is that Mr. Langdon, Mr. Seton, Mr. Beard, and Dr. Gulick all had a part in the planning of Boy Scouts of America. In June 1910, all four participated in a YMCA meeting trying to figure out the best way to spread the Boy Scout movement in America. All four were social and professional friends.
Dr. Gulick was leading the YMCA during the time that the YMCA was helping Boy Scouts to begin in America, and Dr. Gulick was leading the YMCA in 1911 when another of the players became Chief Scout Executive of the newly formed Boy Scouts of America: James E. West, a young Washington, D.C., lawyer who had helped set up Washington's first juvenile court so that children would not be tried in adult courts. West lived in an orphanage from the time he was seven years old. He survived tuberculosis which left him partially disabled, and he worked his way through law school. As a young lawyer, a teenage boy stole his car. West's Christian response was to turn the other check, serve as the boy's lawyer in court, and successfully defend against the charge of auto theft.
After the summer of 1910 -- when Mrs. Gulick ran her "WoHeLo Camp" and Langdon was preparing for the 1911 celebration in Thetford -- this collection of friends returned to work, most of them in New York City. Talk of the possibilities of a national organization for girls dominated talk at the Russell Sage Foundation, where Dr. Gulick and Langdon worked, and in the offices of the Boy Scouts of America, just across the street from the Russell Sage Foundation. The talk continued in the homes of this close group of friends and co-workers.
On March 22, 1911, Dr. Gulick chaired a meeting "to consider ways and means of doing for the girls [nationally] what the Boy Scout movement is designed to do for boys." Among those present in the still small group were the Gulicks, the Farnsworths, Mr. Langdon, Mrs. Seton (Grace Gallatin), Lina Beard, and Mr. West (representing Boy Scouts of America). The name "Camp Fire Girls" was agreed on that day.
"It was agreed that inquiries concerning boys' work be forwarded to the BSA and that they be asked to forward similar inquiries about girls' work to Camp Fire Girls. Dr. Gulick suggested that the officers of both organizations constitute a joint committee for matters of mutual interest."
On April 7, 1911, a second meeting of the Committee on Organization was held. Soon after, an Advisory Committee was appointed with Mr. Farnsworth, Dr. Gulick, Mr. Langdon, and Mr. West of the Boy Scouts of America. Joining the committee a bit later were Mr. Seton and Mr. Beard.
On April 10, 1911, Mr. West, in his job with Boy Scouts of America, issued the following press release from the Boy Scouts of America headquarters:
WO-HE-LO
National Society for Girls like the Boy Scouts
Prominent New York Men and Women Organize 'The Camp Fire Girls of America' -- Success of the Boy Scout Movement Paves the Way For the New Organization, but Methods Will Be Different
Plans now are being made for a temporary organization called "The Camp Fire Girls of America" which may develop into a national society in the fall if such a step seems justified. The aim of the organization is to provide for girls outdoor activities corresponding to those furnished boys by the Boy Scout movement. It seeks to encourage a greater interest among girls in exercises in the open with the threefold aim of developing their bodies, mind and characters. It is recognized, however, that the activities provided for the girls must be fundamentally different from those of boys and that special attention must be paid to the home. . . . [From Wo-He-Lo: The Camp Fire History, copyright 1980 by Camp Fire, Inc.]And two months later, on June 8, 1911, the following story appeared in the New York Times:
Surely there was no "rivalry" with the Boy Scouts of America, but the New York Times story shows two things:
First, it shows that by June 7, 1911, there were three scouting-related girls' groups in the USA:(1) A group called "Girl Scouts," that had been organized in 1910 in Des Moines, Iowa, by Clara A. Lisetor-Lane;
(2) A group called "Girl Guides," that had been sponsored in 1910 by the Rev. David Ferry of Spokane, Washington;
(3) Camp Fire Girls, which had been announced in April 1911 in New York.Second, the story shows that on June 7, 1911, the three small groups merged together and called themselves "Girl Pioneers of American." The officers of the newly formed group were named as Mrs. Charles H. Farnsworth, Miss Lisetor-Lane, and Mrs. Ernest Thompson Seaton. (In 1911, Mrs. Seaton's husband was extremely active in the newly formed Boy Scouts of America.)
Langdon's Pageant of Thetford was performed on the banks of the Connecticut River, in Thetford, Vermont, on August 12, 14, and 15, in 1911. On page 61 of the Pageant, Langdon called the girls "the Girl Pioneers." And at page 62, describing Thetford, he wrote, "They've got Boy Scouts and Girl Pioneers everywhere."
On February 8, 1912, the following story appeared in the New York Times:
The February 1912 news story used the same name, "Girl Pioneers of America," as the news story of eight months earlier. And Lina Beard was from the same group of folks who had been involved with sitting up what was called "Camp Fire Girls" in the BSA news release from ten months earlier (April 1911). And, in the William Chauncy Langdon's Pageant of Thetford that was performed only six months earlier (August 1911), Langdon had referred to "Boy Scouts and Girl Pioneers."
According to Lina Beard's entry in a book with information assembled in 1913, Lina was "Founder and chief pioneer of nat. organization of Girl Pioneers of America (sister organization of Boy Scouts of America)." From page 87 of Woman's Who's Who of America: A Biographical Dictionary of Contemporary Women of the United States and Canada, 1914-1915, edited by John William Leonard, with preface to the completed book written on January 31, 1914:
Lina's sister Adelia Beard's entry (at page 86) includes this: "With sister, Lina Beard, worked out plans now embodied in the national organization of Girl Pioneers of America, sister organization to the Boy Scouts of America, and is executive secretary of the organization."
In the same book, at page 730, Grace Gallatine Seton (Mrs. Ernest Thompson Seton) is described as "interested in Boy Scout movement and Camp Fire Girls of America."
At page 904, for Mary Schenck Woolman (Mrs. Franklin Conrad Woolman): "Interested in the Camp Fire Girls."
In other words, it appears that there was a brief time (from June 1911 to at least January 1914) when what ultimately was known as "Camp Fire Girls" was also known as "Girl Pioneers of America."
In 1914, there was another major contribution to Camp Fire: Dr. Eastman, Ohiyesa, wrote the book Indian Scout Talks: A Guide for Boy Scouts and Camp Fire Girls. Both BSA and Camp Fire use Native American traditions. In recent years, there have been complaints from some of the "politically correct" that the use of such symbols and words was wrong and degrading to Native Americans. It should be noted that the person who offered those traditions to the two organizations was a Sioux with unimpeachable credentials: He grew up on a reservation, was the only physician there to give aid after the Wounded Knee disaster of 1890, and wrote biographies of some of the greatest Indian leaders of his lifetime. Ohiyesa's book written for Boy Scouts and Camp Fire Girls is filled with ceremonies, symbols, words, and names which he suggests as appropriate for use by the youth of the two groups. He wrote of how names were given to a person in his Sioux culture, and he suggested it would be appropriate for young people to create names meaningful to them. He included two lists. Above the first, he wrote, "The following are Sioux feminine names appropriate to Camp Fire Girls, with their literal and symbolic meanings." Then, he listed some Ojibway girls' names. Those same names have appeared in Camp Fire books since.
James West retired from BSA in 1943. For all his years, Mr. West was a staunch supporter of Camp Fire Girls and was adament that Camp Fire Girls was the sister organization of Boy Scouts of America. Mr. West was such a strong supporter of Camp Fire Girls as BSA's sister organization that as Chief Executive of BSA he filed suit against Juliette Gordon Low's Girl Guide organization for using the word "Scouts" in the program as it was operated in the United States.
Camp Fire continued as Camp Fire Girls thru the 1970s. Then, there was discussion between Boy Scouts of America and Camp Fire Girls to merge the two programs. During discussions, BSA began running some groups at the high-school age level that were coed. While the decision was against a merger, BSA continued running coed high-school groups which came to be known as Explorers. Camp Fire's decision after the discussions and trial runs was to go completely coed. After it became coed, the name was changed to simply "Camp Fire." Then, to "Camp Fire Boys and Girls." And more recently to "Camp Fire USA."
At a banquet in New York City in 1910, Ernest Thompson Seton introduced British Lt. General Robert Baden-Powell as the "father of Scouting." Baden-Powell replied, "You are mistaken, Mr. Seton .... I may say that you, or Dan Beard, is the father - - there are many fathers. I am only one of the uncles." Baden-Powell acknowledged that much of what he wrote in his Scouting for Boys book was taken from Seton's The Birch-bark Roll of the Woodcraft Indians, and that the idea of having boys earn badges by meeting standards rather than completing against other boys was taken from Seton's program.
Scouting was the creation of many, not one, and Camp Fire has been the creation of many, not only the Gulicks. Also, while Camp Fire does not carry the family name "Scouts," Camp Fire is defintely part of the family.
Wo-He-Lo!
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A bit of a reach, but cotton is not the best choice often. Modern wicking type materials are generally a better choice. On the other hand, a uniform worn for formal and indoor use is fine, though they likely could simply use all the modern materials and then have no issue. For info;
Here is an article that quantifies the heat loss effects of cotton, polyester and polypropylene: Rossi et al., Dry and Wet Heat Transfer Through Clothing Dependent on the Clothing Properties Under Cold Conditions, International Journal of Occupational Safety and Ergonomics (JOSE) 2008, Vol. 14, No. 1, 69–76.
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"Encounter a Cougar while hiking ...what would your scouts do?"
Hopefully not say "here kitty, kitty".
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Follow YP guidelines, live the meaning of Scout Spirit, and let the youth be youth as they figure it out. We continue to try to make a mountain, and Scouting is only one more opportunity to find a path. Balance and that shady concept, common sense.
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Few, if any World groups would face what the BSA has and does. Our legal system is a mess, and totally illogical in many instances. Add on the "sympathetic jury" awards, and judges that will not use their legal knowledge to over ride pie in the sky monetary damages, and it is no wonder we have issues. JMO of course. Balance, as I continue to suggest, is the key.
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This fits into the general subject, though it may need to be moved. I found it interesting that it discusses similar concerns that seem connected to the BSA problems. And it too has been apparently swept under the proverbial rugs. It relates to the staging and filming of preteen and early teen TV shows on Nickelodeon and other similar channels.
https://www.aol.com/why-quiet-set-documentary-nickelodeon-204637311.html
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Sadly, at least in our society, it seems as if the concepts on which Scouting is built, again what we all Scout Spirit, are too often seen as out of the main stream, or quaint. We come back to the slurring tone of "you are such a Boy Scout", and so on. Well, being a Boy Scout is a positive thing in my view. And that includes the modern model that includes girls, women, and any that can abide by the Spirit.
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The sad thing with this is that historically, BSA has been very inclusive overall. They were far ahead in acceptance of other races, especially Blacks, though dealing with the larger society was a real challenge. Yet even in the South, there are historical proof that some found a way for them to be involved. Similarly, when the Gay issue hit the fan, the issue was forced on BSA from society, rather than BSA making it an issue. I still feel that the Dale fiasco was brought on by people outside the actual unit and it members. They were aware, but simply had not felt it worth worrying about. Then when the youth went to college and the unit's larger community found out, the trouble makers had to push things. At that point, IMO, it should have been put in the hands of the unit and National and the local Council should have left it alone. The unit had already given a silent acceptance, so it was not them with the problem.
But, that is the norm in our overly nosy and selfish society. Some just cannot let others live as they choose, but must push the limits and cause turmoil. Our 102 year old unit has had at least two Gays over time of whom I am aware, and likely more. But it has not been an issue because they just were part of the group as far as we knew. And they did not try to push themselves on others. Then it would have had to have a solution. And that is really where we are with girls in the program. Supervision, common sense, mentoring and following the intent of the foundational tenets, the thing we call Scout Spirit.
Again, just my view based on age and exposure to various societal realities with little interference from overbearing adults.
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It is a continuing mystery to me why some cannot simply separate themselves mentally, and if possible physically from things that annoy them. We all hear the comment, "turn off the TV" on a fairly regular basis. That more or less is the same thing. IF it bothers you, separate as you can and then stay away as you choose. In most cases nobody is forcing you to do anything other than be in the same vicinity. JMHO of course.
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1 hour ago, fred8033 said:
I mostly agree. My fear is BSA does the best when it focuses on adventure and skills. Everything else is about natural learning. BSA sucks when it tries to force what should be naturally learned.
Society is debating these bigger topics. I disagree with "start having the conversations", "promote education ... on gender equality" and "empower men and boys ... on gender equality". I fully believe in "creating a safe space" and "build the culture". I believe we can do that very effectively. The trouble with the first is that society is having huge debates still on these topics. If you have conversations, you better be ready to listen to others that don't believe as you believe. If you shut down people that have differing opinions, then you are not having a "conversation". If you promote, you better get ready to receive push back.
We do the best by modeling the right behavior. Create the safe spaces. Build the right culture. Be kind to all. Teach everyone. Introduce everyone to adventure. I believe we can do that making BSA a natural part of social change. That's how BSA will be most effective. ...
Leave the ugly debates to the rest of society. Let's focus on teaching (all) scouts how to keep the inside of their tent dry and how to paddle a canoe.
Some very cogent statements here, and it seems to me to verify my oft made comment that the changes in BSA, or our society in general, have to occur in the normal evolutionary way. Almost every forced change finds serous societal kickbacks, and sadly, tends to bring out the worst in those with the least aptitude for interpersonal living. We again come back to the simple premise of the "Golden Rule".
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40 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:
It can’t be FOS dollars. It needs to go to the council endowment. Most (all?) gifts to the endowment are explicitly directed to go into that fund. So, likely no, most longer term scouters do not qualify for the James West Award.
While I have never contributed much to FOS, as my donations go to the troop first, then in support of specific programs, I have not donated to the endowments directly either. On the other hand, what I have donated into is similar to what the idea of endowments is, but more immediate. But, I think it is clearer to me now. Thanks.
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Many things that make it more difficult are basically our of the direct control of BSA, or for that matter, any youth serving agencies. It is our legal system based on greed and the foolish idea that personal responsibility is not first and foremost, and that somehow human nature will NOT intrude too often and make things worse. Civil cases are built primarily on the foolish idea that it is always someone else's fault, and so anyone remotely connected can be held accountable, with few or no limits. Add human emotional empathy in many juries, and it explodes. Meanwhile, we have more and more lawyers beating the bushes for anything that might feed this. And then allow the media to hype things to extremes, and we have our perfect storm.
The concept of the Summit is not bad, it is the skewing of it over time and I fear some back stage siphoning. On the other hand, the same concept on smaller scale might have been applied to regional summer camps that simply need financial help, but had or have volunteer support locally. Then the youth served would have been more realistic, and also less expensive over all, or so it would appear to me.
Legal settlements and abuse
in Issues & Politics
Posted
We have no idea how many of those claims are real. And this link suggests this is also just the point of the iceberg. The tar and feathers is due most likely many schools, the Y as here noted, Boys and Girls clubs, uncounted sports groups, and any other youth group the creeps manage to get into. That is the point. The issue is not just BSA, and indications are that based on membership over many decades, the percentages of proven abuse are low in comparison to many. But, the stats are vague, and more is likely unreported or acknowledged than is known. IF the legal vultures decide to go after the Y, or others, we may see just as large, percentage wise, of an ugly reality of our whole society, and frankly most likely the larger world. That is the only point. There is no excuse for your trauma, but sadly, we can see you are one of too many, and not just with BSA.