shortridge

If we’re thinking Big Thoughts, I’d also propose a total end to the commissioner staff. I haven’t encountered a district yet that doesn’t struggle with attracting and retaining commissioners, let alone that uses that staff to support units properly. If we have people who want to be involved in Scouting, then put them to work directly with units as ASMs or MCs, or at the district level working on camporees, training, advancement, or camping promotion - direct program delivery, not as “consultants.” Don’t waste good bodies on a vague and usually useless organizational element that very few people understand.

19 minutes ago, Cubmaster Pete said:

I think a lot of scouters at the Scouts BSA level don't realize how expensive the Cub Scout award scheme is.

I’ll give you that, but Scouts BSA advancement can be pricey, too. A new Scout who zips up to First Class, earns a solid 10 merit badges in one year, and holds a POR has amassed $45 in patches and pocket certificates.
 

That doesn’t include a religious award knot ($1.99), Trained patch ($1.79), National Honor Patrol stars ($1.19), interpreter or recruiter strips ($1.99 and $1.79), the Cyber Chip ($3.59), those ridiculous Totin’ Chip and Firem’n Chit fake flaps($1.79), Paul Bunyan ($1.99), Outdoor Ethics ($3.99), 50-Miler ($3.59), or any of the various and varied conservation, STEM, aquatics, or National Outdoor awards. Or OA insignia, if elected.

Leave? No. I’m going to be right where I am, as CC of my daughter’s troop until she ages out, then working with my sons’ Cub pack as they get older. The program is solid at its core. I’ll take care of my local kids and they’ll have a great time. National can do whatever National does, and it doesn’t affect the day-to-day unit program a whole heck of a lot.

I do agree that Cubs has gotten far, far too long. If my boys join, they’ll be waiting until Tiger or more probably Wolf. Lions is pretty ridiculous. There are only so many times you can visit the police station and go pumpkin-picking and play fitness games over five years to complete what are basically the same achievements.

I understand that the pros did it to scoop kids up sooner and compete with toddler T-ball and preschool soccer - but sports are seeing youth burnout as well! Kids’ interests change and they get bored.

I don’t get ScoutingWire, but I do get Bryan on Scouting, who didn’t mention it. Great communications coordination!

To clarify: We have no existing traditions, no old guard, no ingrained practices. This is effectively a clean slate to start from, posing a unique and interesting opportunity.

I’m the CC of a brand-new Scouts BSA troop starting up. The SM and ASM are new to their roles, as am I. We have a founding group of about 5-6 Scouts to start, but as we’re the only girls’ troop serving a three-county district, we have the potential for very rapid growth over the next 2-3 years.

—> What advice would you give to the SM to start off on the right foot and emphasize the patrol method?

—> What can the troop committee do to support and encourage the patrol method?

—> What practices can we put in place from the start that will help guide us to keep the patrol method at the forefront as we grow?

Thanks!

To clarify the thread title: National did not amend that requirement. They appear to have waived in this case due to the specific circumstances involved. That’s not the same as a blanket change across the board.

On 10/6/2019 at 7:37 PM, The Latin Scot said:

Now I read through the magazine and wonder if I've just grown beyond the kind of articles they print, or if the quality really has diminished. There just doesn't need to be the same amount of information as there was before. Fewer articles, and more gaudy imagery.

In fairness, that’s a trend across all print media. Instead of a skills article we get a how-to list. In place of an essay on nature we get a giant photo. Long-form adventure stories and profiles get trimmed down to one page. Try comparing old and new issues of Backpacker magazine if you REALLY want to see the difference! The ‘90s to now is like night and day.

No, she met Scouts and rafted with fourth-graders, according to the story.

As a former journalist, it’s irritating that the AP can’t get the term right and calls them “Boy Scouts.” Doubly irritating because photos show there were members of Scouts BSA plus Cub Scouts, with girls among the latter group.

The whole thing strikes me as largely a joke. I fail to see the point of yet another doo-dad for a service project.

I’m frankly a little surprised to see troops having Scouts (and parents) front the cost and then get reimbursed. That would have been impossible in my day - some Scouts barely had the $10 food fee, let alone affording $80 for the whole patrol. We were a fairly rural area with some lower-income youth.

We just brought cash to that week’s meeting, gave it to the shopper, and doublechecked receipts on Friday to make sure he hadn’t pocketed any cash. That almost never happened - leftover money usually went toward picking up an extra box of Pop-Tarts or hot chocolate mix.

What advice would you give to a new committee chair of a brand-new troop?

If you have a limited number of committee members, what are the priority positions to fill?

What best practices do you suggest on unit financial accountability and transparency?

By way of background, this would be a new girls’ troop with an established CO, unlinked to the boys’ troop.

12 hours ago, swilliams said:

as much as it drives me crazy, the troop doesn't record any advancement in the scout handbooks. 

Ooooooof. That’s bad. What happens if the software crashes? If a disgruntled volunteer decides to wipe everyone’s accounts? If the Scout has a disagreement with the adults and the troop won’t give him/her their records?

Scouts should ALWAYS record advancement in their book. For one, it teaches that they are responsible for their own advancement, not an adult on a computer.

To further clarify, the books are correct in the rank requirements section. They are incorrect in the various chapters covering those topics.

Regarding the six-feet-high rule, National Camp Standards governing summer camps say:

”Pioneering projects where participants are elevated more than 6 feet above the ground are permitted only after review by the council enterprise risk management committee.”

Perhaps these other items mentioned here had gone through some sort of review.

On 4/24/2019 at 11:37 AM, Cambridgeskip said:

In recent years there have normally been several sets of "exploding kittens" floating round camp. I don't know if that has made it to your side of the pond yet. It's quite addictive

That’s a great game! The imploding kittens expansion pack doubles the fun.

I’m in search of a good pair of grey shorts suitable for a young woman for the Venturing uniform. She hates the switchbacks, FWIW. Something durable with good pockets that’s quick-dry would be ideal. Any suggestions? Thanks!

Support for Venturing varies widely. In my entire council, I count around five Venturing crews - and two are for camp staff registration. Aside from keeping 18-20 youth involved, there’s not much of an obvious rationale for the program. And with girls able to join Scouts BSA now, I’m not sure it’s much longer for this world.

My council *is* heavily promoting Explorer Posts, by contrast.

I’m doing some preliminary research for an academic project and am hoping to get some perspective from unit-serving Scouters on these questions:

- With youth, what is your biggest problem in skills instruction? (Examples: Scouts having difficulty learning knots and lashings; Scouts not having access to key tools or equipment; youth and adult instructors lack certain skills themselves; Enviro Science report-writing is a major obstacle; summer camp staff does not properly test for completion, etc.)

- With adults, what is your biggest problem in leader training? (Examples: YPT is too dull; IOLS doesn’t cover certain skills or is too theoretical and not hands-on enough; SM Specific doesn’t devote enough to a certain method; trainers don’t explain the topic enough at the start or ask for feedback at the end, etc.).

I’m trying to cast a wide net, so any items would be appreciated. Thank you!

The contortions here are astounding. Parents only see the DRP language on the youth application, which clearly states their beliefs are the ones that matter. They may not even know who the CO is at that point! They certainly don’t see the charter language. Yet by all means, let’s permit COs to override a family’s religious beliefs and target a bunch of unsuspecting youth for conversion! Listen to yourselves here, folks.

If I send my Jewish daughter to a Scout troop chartered to a Catholic Church, I am not expecting that she’ll come home from a campout talking about the glory of Jesus. That ain’t right.

COs that use Scouting units as part of their conversion and recruitment ministries should be up front and straightforward - say, Trustworthy? - about their intentions and how they run the unit. If they don’t do that, I would seriously call into question their honesty and integrity.

David, your correction of a single word does not change the fundamental point that the Declaration of Religious Principle, which all parents and Scouters must agree with, clearly states that religion is the family’s domain, not the CO’s. I will restate with the correct word:

The term “organization or group” refers to the family’s religious organization, if any, not the unit-owning entity.

“The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.” 

- Declaration of Religious Principle

That says nothing about the chartered organization. The term “organization or group” refers to the family’s religious organization, if any, not the unit-sponsoring entity. This is the only guidance that the BSA gives its families on religion in Scouting. There is not a word even remotely suggesting to parents that the group or business providing a meeting place and financial support will try to sneak around and convert their children. Rather, the emphasis is on how “the home” governs a Scout’s religious obligations. It’s sad that some COs blatantly ignore this key Scouting principle in favor of their own narrow self-interest.

Sorry about the giant font. Pasting text does that for me.  ( fixed  - RS)

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

The above comes from the annual CO agreement.  I would argue if the BSA wanted to stop church COs from proselytizing it would be documented here.  In fact, the BSA specifically mentions youth ministry as a specific objective.  

Where is the disclosure to Hindu or Jewish families that they are signing up to be preached at by joining a troop chartered by a Christian church?

There is none, and for a church to take advantage of that relationship is pathetic.Scouting is specifically promoted as a nonsectarian organization open to all who agree with the DRP.

3 hours ago, David CO said:

There is nothing "back-door" about it. When you voluntarily walk through the front door of our church, you are fair game for proselytizing and conversion.

It is bad enough that some "non-Christians" insist on removing every vestige of Christian religion from the public square. When they start insisting that we can't freely practice our faith within our own four walls, that's too much. 

Where’s the giant eye-roll emoji?

Give me a break.

If an adult walks through the doors of your church voluntarily to worship or check things out, then yes, try to convert them all you want.

But if a kid walks through your doors to join Scouting, unless you have prepped them in advance and unless your unit is explicitly and overtly part of your ministry to get more people to join your church —

they are NOT “fair game.”

There is nothing about the Scouting program that makes them such. There is no disclosure in any of the application or program materials that they may be viewed or targeted that way. If you are using Scouting in that way, then you are utterly misusing Scouting. My kid who wants to hang with her friends and go camping is not your conversion prospect.

No one is restricting you from practicing your faith anywhere. All I’m saying is if that is your approach, be honest and up front when a Scout signs up.

Since you dodged the question, I’ll ask again: Where does it say that a CO is allowed to proselytize to the youth in its Scouting unit’s and treat Scouting families as members of the CO? Is that in the unit application? The charter agreement? Please, please show me.

50 minutes ago, David CO said:

Really? Can you find any documentation to support that opinion?

My impression is that BSA doesn't get involved at all in saying who is, or who is not, a member of the CO. They wouldn't touch that with a ten foot lodge pole.

David, I would ask you to show me where in any Scouting documentation Scouts and their families are informed that a CO will treat them as members. You won’t find it, because it doesn’t exist. That is not the normal relationship between a CO and its Scouts.

When I was a member of two troops as a youth, my family wasn’t a member of the American Legion, nor were we members of the United Methodist Church. If the church had said “We consider you members now!” I darn sure would have run to the troop next town over. I’m here for Scouting, not to make someone’s religion feel warm and fuzzy. If a CO shoves its doctrine down my throat, I’m gone and taking as many Scouts with me as possible.

That said: If you are up front about it - restricting membership in the unit to only members of your faith - that is an entirely different thing. Be honest with your Scouts at the outset and make your unit’s expectations and practices clear. But please don’t try some back-door “Oh, you’re one of us!” job here. That smacks of proselytizing and conversion, and us non-Christians have had enough of that.

This has gone off the original topic, and I apologize. I’d be happy to move this discussion to the Faith and Chaplaincy forum! 🤨