scoutingagain

Let me add my deep appreciation for the Veterans out there. And thanks Dave for starting this thread.

I'm at work today but the Troop I serve will be marching in our town's Veteran's Day Parade. The parade is one of the few activities the troop highly expects of the scouts. (It's not exactly a rule, but there is significant peer pressure among the scouts to attend.) They will stop at 11:11 at a local memorial park. They will stand at attention and listen to various local politicians speak their piece and say a prayer. I will stop what I'm doing and say a silent prayer to thank all of you.

SA

I was sure healthy was in there somewhere.

Change the first line of my last post to:

"...to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake..."

SA

A scout is Healthy!

I'm a health and safety professional for a large engineering & construction co. I deal with the issue of rules vrs values all the time with adults. Rules only change behavior if there is a belief one will suffer consequences if one is caught. i.e. a ticket.

I often ask folks I provide health and safety training to if they drive 55 mph. Most indicate no. I ask what do they do if a State Trooper pulls up behind them. They slow down. And if the Trooper exits? They speed up. Then I ask, how many unbuckle their seatbelts?

None(and most use them). They have all made the determination on their own they want to keep their seat belt buckled. A determination made because they believe it adds value to their life. It might save it. You don't need a Trooper around to make sure they use it.

In scouting we try and instill values so scouts can choose the best behavior on their own. If we are successful, arbitrary rules shouldn't be needed. There may be times, such as safety issues, where because of the risks, we create rules to quickly induce appropriate behaviour. i.e. No swimming without a buddy.

I don't see rules such as no electronics on campouts as safety rules though. (Although thank God for head phones.) Common courtesy and a value of the outdoor experience should dictate when such items are used.

SA

Hollings and Rangel I believe are both opponents of the current administration's actions in Iraq. The bill they filed was more of a reminder to members of congress and the nation of the kinds of sacrifices a nation must make when it goes to war. The point I think they were trying to make was that if more of the population had to make sacrifices, there would be less support for war in general, particularly the Iraq war.

Right now the major burden of the war falls on those that have volunteered for military service or reserve duty. True they understood or should have understood what they volunteered for, but the rest of us, unless we have a family member or know someone in the service, are relatively unaffected. Whatever issues we have with the war pro or con, they pale in comparison to those participating and their families.

I don't think there is a way to adequately reward our volunteer military for what they do. The act of volunteer military service in whatever capacity deserves our deepest gratitude.

SA

Cubs - AOL

Scouts - Eagle

Currently Troop Committee Member and Advancement Chair.

Can't beat a pure milk chocolate Hershey's candy bar. All the others just mess up the chocolate with nuts, caramel, Nuget(whatever that is) and other stuff.

SA

I can't quite figure out how the title of this thread got around to discussion the pros and cons of when to have BORs. Our troop handles them very similar to the way NJ's does.

There are other rules Troops impose that don't seem to have much to do with the Scout Oath and Law though. Most seem to be oriented towards maintaining some degree of order, discipline or someone's idea of what the scouting experience should be. i.e. many troops ban the use of CD players and Gameboys. I don't disagree with such a rule but don't see them covered in the Oath & Law.

In fact on our last campout, it rained all day Sunday. While our troop doesn't ban the use of electronic gadgets, they are discouraged when we are not travelling. Since it rained all day, we didn't do much except hang out under the dining fly. One scout had his CD player and I asked him what he was listening to. He told me the Bee Gees. He then gave me an intensive disertation on how he thought the Bee Gees were the best group he'd ever heard. He had all their albums, knew every song and whatever history was associated with it. Now I'm old enough to remember the Bee Gees before Saturday Night Fever. Two of my favorite songs were Massachusetts and the New York Mining Disaster. I couldn't get over how this 15 year old was so into the Bee Gees. We had a great talk about the group and on the ride home listened to his CDs. One of those great moments in connecting with a kid that wouldn't have happened had I put on my "NO CD PLAYERS ALLOWED!" hat on.

The title of the thread reminded me of the moment. I don't know how you guys got so involved with scheduling BORs.

SA

While our troop has about a half dozen Eureka, two man tents, the scouts prefer to bring their own. We discourage the large family style tents and for the most part the scouts bring 2-4 person tents that are low profile(i.e. an adult would not have standing room). We do not allow the scouts to sleep alone, everyone has to buddy up or triple up. It's never been an issue as far as I know. It's kind of understood, if you bring a piece of equipment on a campout, it is used for the benefit of all unless it's clearly a personal use item.

Our bigger challenge is getting the adults to leave some of their stuff behind. We always seem to end up with 6 stoves, 12 lanterns, cookits, grills, griddles, coolers, tables, chairs, screen houses, etc. It's the adults that seem to want to show off their latest gadget. To be fair all are very generous with the use of the equipment. But we certainly don't pack light.

SA

On other threads the wisdom of some of the safety rules in the GSS have been debated and there is some disagreement among the members of the forum of wisdom or clarity of some of the rules.

On this one I'd be suprised if there is any disagreement at all. Our troop takes youth protection very seriously. This situation would not be tolerated. I think SagerScout has a good suggestion.

One thing that seems to be missing is the issue of potential false accusation. The youth protection guidelines protect the scouter as much as they do the scout. I sat on a jury once of a man accused of molesting a young boy. The incident was not associated with scouting. After all the evidence was heard it was apparent this was a particularly troubled youth that for what ever reason was mad at this poor guy in his neighborhood and accused him of something the jury believed he didn't do. He was aquitted, but had substantial negative publicity associated with his name.

You might want to mention to the scoutmaster the risks he is taking with his own reputation by ignoring the rule.

SA

Maybe we are making a mountain out of a molehill here. If Patrol Activities are the sandlot baseball of scouting there maybe more patrol activities going on than we give ourselves credit for.

We live close enough to the beach (4 miles) that during the summer it is not uncommon for my older son(16), to make arrangements to meet his friends at the beach and he'll hop on his bike and go there. They hang out for the day, tease or look at girls, have ice cream and horse around in the water or on the beach. They get on their bikes and go home. (There is a life guard. Usually female and frequently the object of their attention.) Some of the kids are scouts, but as in sandlot baseball, (where some kids play organized baseball and some don't), some of the kids aren't. Wah lah, a boy led patrol activity.

They all have their parents permission, but I'm sure it never dawned on them to ask a scoutmaster to make it a scout activity. I'm also sure it would never dawn on them to sue the BSA if anyone was hurt. They don't apply for a permit or use permission slips either. It's us adults that get hung up on all the paperwork and litigation and insurance issues.

Anyone else with other examples? (To get back closer to the original question?)

Camping would be a bigger step, but I could see where they could do it. However finding a location where they would be given permission to camp without an adult designated as someone responsible for the group would be difficult though. At least around here. I'm sure they could think of a place, but I'm also pretty sure they would need adult assistance in securing permission, if they could get it at all.

For now we will likely try and find an area where the boys can camp out of sight of the adults, but not out of contact.

SA

I don't wish to rehash the obvious conflict in the BSA policies, but I would like to encourage at least some of our scouts to undertake a youth led activity without adult supervision.

But before I do, I would like to hear some answers to the original question. Where do scouters allow patrols to camp without adult supervision and under what circumstances? Are there other activities done by patrols without adult supervision? Do you get permits for these activities?

The local tour permit states, "Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all camping trips and tours." Is it possible to get an approved permit from a council leaving this area of the permit blank?

SA

Saltheart,

I didn't want to hijack your thread. Many years ago I had the opportunity to witness the northern lights in Maine. They are spectacular and awe inspiring. I'll keep an eye out tonight.

But you got me remembering and thinking. As scouts and scouter we spend a lot of time outdoors and probably have more opportunity to witness such moments more frequently than others. What was the most memorable or awe inspiring Natural event, or scene you have had a chance to see or experience?

For me it was in Maine again. A friend and I were hiking in Camden Hills State Park on the coast of Maine just after some thunder storms had come through and blown out to sea late in the afternoon. From the tops of the mountains in Camden Hills you can look out over the hundreds of islands and the ocean of the Gulf of Maine. On this particular day, at this time, three concentric rainbows appeared stretching from horizen to horizen. Not wispy barely visible rainbows, all three were of nearly equal intensity and really brite. And it wasn't just the rainbows. The combination of the sunlight filtering through the broken storm clouds, reflecting off the water, mist in the air and the rainbows were indescribable. The event lasted maybe 10 - 15 minutes.

You could hear others on the mountain shouting in exitement. We all knew we were seeing something really rare and spectacular. After a few minutes there was complete silence. We all just looked at the sky. Some people were crying.

The wind came up and the clouds moved on. The rainbows faded. But I have never forgotten those few moments.

Anybody else?

SA

Great story Dave. Thanks.

I know meeting the President must have been big, but I'm a big fan of Clive Cussler. That visit had to be unbelievable. I'm unscoutlike green with envy.

After Dave's short novel I'm embarressed to add anything.

In my life I can't say I'm gone out of my way looking for Eagle scouts or other scouts but I always seem to run into them. In my college dorm wing we had 12 guys. 6 were Eagle scouts and 2 were Life, one never got past 1st Class but was a scout for 4 years. We had the best wing on campus as far a I was concerned. We studied, but come weekends, we'd head off for adventure. We camped, hiked, travelled. We were a patrol. We organized trips, outings, parties. Others in the dorm couldn't get over how much we did. We all graduated. While we are not company presidents, heroes or celebrities, we all have advanced to some level of success. We all have healthy families and are active in our communities. None are divorced.

I currently work in a small department in a large engineering/contruction firm. There are 6 in my small group. 3 Eagle scouts(including the boss, whose two sons are Eagles) and 2 Life scouts. No one knew when we were hired that we were Eagles, the topic came up in conversation one day at a meeting and we were all a little suprised at our common scouting background. The previous CEO of our firm is an Eagle scout.

I don't know how inspirational it is, but I can say I appreciate the honor of being an Eagle more now than when I earned it.

Thanks for letting me share.

SA

Rooster,

I assume by your last post that at some point there should be a moral decision made as to who should be allowed to serve, even if they volunteer. I agree.

The worst recent example I can think of is during the invasion of Iraq I watched video of young boys, no older than the those I serve in scouting, running in open territory collecting ammunition and rocket propelled grenades for Iraqi soldiers??? (I really don't intend to dignify these, whatever they are as soldiers, but I don't have another term). I have read where some of our

soldiers and marines had to shoot these kids at times. I don't hold anything against our service personnel, I blame the cowards that either forced these kids to do it or even convinced them to do so voluntarily.

There is a moral line here.

Where it is and who gets to decide where it is are big questions.

SA

My terminology may be wrong. But there are women that fly combat aircraft. i.e. Fly sorties, drop bombs, shoot rockets, bullets from aircraft. There are probably not many given the physical demands of the position, but I've seen several interviewed on various news programs.

Those in the military are free to correct my terminology.

SA

Rooster,

Just had to smile at your last post.

First, I'm glad you weren't offended by my question.

Second, ironically this thread was started to discuss something other than the gay stuff.

While the thread started as a question of whether women should register or not, I do have another thought related to the issue.

Many women have volunteered for service and have proven themselves to be able contributors to the military. They serve as drivers, nurses, clerks, fighter pilots, naval officers and many other postions. In fact I'll bet the all volunteer force might not be possible if it weren't for the women that do volunteer. In that sense, is it possible that our sons retain the alternative of choosing to serve or not due to the contributions made by the women that do volunteer for service?

SA

Jeesh!

I just finished a long winded reply and somehow lost it. I'm still figuring out some of the features of the site.

The main point I wanted to make though was,

Rooster, I appologize if you were offended by my question. Believe me no offense was intended. In re-reading it I realize It may have come off as more personal than intended.

SA

Thank you for your prompt replies.

Our troop has not had a list of troop merit badge counselors in the past. I don't know why, I've only been with the troop a couple of years and am just took over as Advancement Chair this year. I suspect it has to do with the fact that most scouts earn their merit badges through the merit badge universities and camps.

We have a small group of counselors that do some of the more academic like merit badges such as the citizenship badges. We do have some ASMs and other parents with a variety of skills that I will try and register as merit badge counselors that could help scouts complete some of the other skill based badges.

Thanks again

How do folks handle the completion of merit badges where only part of the requirements have been met?

In an ideal world, the scout would go back to the original merit badge counselor and have the work approved and the appropriate documentation signed. However, in the current world where many of our scouts earn their merit badges at camp or at merit badge universities, tracking down the original counselor is difficult and sometimes impossible.

In many cases there are one or two requirements that have not been met and usually that is because they could not be done within the time frame or constraints of camp or the specific merit badge earning function. They are usually things like the 90 day logs or record keeping requirements or site visits.

I was wondering how other troops handled this situation.

SA

Rooster,

I share your sentiments about not wanting to send a child off to war. I am the father of two sons and would not want them taken from me either. In a free society I am hopeful we do not have to resort to a draft again and have the utmost repect for those that choose to serve and their families.

After 9/11 my older son(15) expressed interest in the military. I was suprised because we had never really discussed it before. I told him if it was something he wanted to do, that would be his choice and I would be proud of him. (If I could, I'd go with him, but FOG makes good points.) I cringe at the thought of him having to go fight but understand the need.

I'm curious though, what if your daughter volunteered for military service?

SA

From a philosophical stand point I can see the point of not supporting the idea of pointing "weapons" at other people and "killing" them as part of a game.

However, of the types of games I've played like this, Paintball, Laser Tag and Water pistolsl/Squirtguns, only Paintball has the feature of "killing" your an opponent so he/she is out of the game. The laser tag games I've been associated with as a part of some of my son's friend's birthday parties, no one is "killed". You collect points for your team for every successful "hit" on target. The targets happen to be on opposing players. In that sense it is more like using waterpistols, except no one gets wet.

To me the BSA prohibition on the Laser Tag thing is a bit over the top. But if it's one of the "rules" we won't be doing it as a scout activity.

SA

Mark,

Go right ahead. I've learned so much from listening in to all of you I'm honored.

The truth is I usually do ask the scout, "What ARE you getting out of scouting?" myself. In this particular case, since the scouts had not been with us that long the question came out as," What WOULD you like to get out of scouting?"

I'll begin to ask it of the older scouts as well now.

SA

SA

I am an Eagle Scout, as is my younger brother, also a scouter. Honestly I can't remember my parents pushing either of us. I do remember support. My Dad frequently camped with us and the troop. Mom drove us to merit badge counselors. I don't know about my brother, but for me, I just sort of woke up one day and realized I only needed a few more merit badges and a service project to complete the Eagle requirments. It was then I set my sights on the badge. Other than that I advanced primarily by participating at summer camp, campouts and pursuing those merit badges I had an interest in.

I share some of the thoughts expressed in the Forum by others on merit badge classes, merit badge universities, etc. Other than summer camps, most all my merit badges were the result of individual efforts. We never did a merit badge as a troop that I can remember.

I recieved my Eagle the fall of my junior year in high school. If I hadn't got it then I don't think I would have been able to do it. That year, while I stayed moderately active in the troop, more of my time was taken up with other high school activities, varsity sports, church groups(they had girls), etc.

I might have been one of those Eagles that the troop lamented about not giving enough back. I hope I am making up for that now taking an active role in my son's troop. Scouting was an important part of my life and I want my son to share that experience. So far he is very much into it and I'm proud of him. I have not had to push his participation at all.

However, his experience is somewhat different than mine. He is 1st class and already has 9 merit badges. All the result of participating in summer camp and local merit badge universities or classes given by the troop. When I tried to explain to the troop committee that merit badges were intended to extract more individual initiative from the scouts and not be spoon fed, they looked at me like I was nuts. "What else would they do?" was one response.

I think advancement is great, but not the be all or end all of scouting. I participated in Boards of Reviews for some of our new scouts going for Tenderfoot. When asked what they would like to get out of scouting, 2 out of 3 said advancement. When pressed they said something like, "Oh ya, and the camping stuff." This bothered me a bit. I am concerned that some of the parents are pushing advancement over some of the other aspects of scouting,(i.e. high adventure) that the kids would like and get as much or more out of.

I trying not to work agianst any of the old hands in the troop leadership, but trying to open they're eyes to other opportunities.

I think I'm making progress, but it's slow.

Thanks for letting me vent a little.

SA

Being a new member I have thought long and hard about entering the fray here in the Issues & Politics forum. Before I say anything let me say I have a great deal of respect for everyone here and that is one of the reasons I have chosen to participate. I am also glad that the Supreme Court ruled that the Boy Scouts are a private organization and have the right to determine who they will allow as members and in what capacity. I believe participation in scouting is a priviledge and not necessarily a right granted by God or the Constitution or anyone else.

Having said the above I would like to address the notion of gay immorality and society's acceptance. It has been noted we all have our own perspective. Let me add mine.

It is my observation that large segments of our society do not judge an individual's morality based on one's sexual orientation. It is not just a few liberals with extreme viewpoints. Entire states provide benefits to same sex partners of state employees as do many cities and major private corporations. Mine does and I am employed by a nationally ranked engineering firm with offices throughout the country and thousands of employees. It is not some specialty ice cream maker or herb tea distributor. It is an old company that operates quite conservatively. The employment practices at my firm, and many others, as well as many government agencies, federal, state and local, do not allow descrimination against individuals that are gay. In fact, if I were to express some of the thoughts expressed on this board related to gays with coworkers I could be subject to discplinary action, possibly termination. As I would if I expressed similar thoughts on minorities or members of other religions.

My state has elected openly gay congressmen, as have others.(I did not vote for them, but it wasn't because they were gay.) There is an openly gay Bishop of a major Christian denomination and other openly gay clergy. There are gay mayors and leaders in many institution of society including businesses, government and religious institutions.

I do not believe this would be possible if the tens of millions maybe hundreds of millions of people that comprise these organizations believed gay people were immoral simply because of their sexual orientation. Is this a majority of the country? I don't know. I do believe it would be the majority in many states.

If the BSA wishes to exclude gays from leadership positions, it has every right to do so. At some point though I believe (and this is where I agree with NJ), a significant majority of society will agree with the many millions of people that already do not judge an indvidual's morallity based on sexual orientation. As noted, the BSA can choose their own course regardless of how society's views of morallity change.

In my area units have lost access to meeting facilities and some municipal governments are openly hostile to the BSA. Right or wrong this increases the challenges of delivering the program to the youth members.

SA

Thanks for a great description Eamonn. Your write up on leading a Boy Led troop is one of the reasons why I've followed these forums and decided to participate. There is just so much wisom here.

As a new scouter I struggle with this issue and constantly wonder if we, the adults associated with our troop, are doing too much or not enough. I'm glad to see I'm not alone and that there is every expectation that we'll succeed one way or another.

SA