scoutingagain

If you want to picture the US of A without electricity for any length of time read, "One Second After". There are several positive scouting references in the book, but otherwise a pretty dark scenario.

http://www.onesecondafter.com/

SA

Barry has it 100% correct. At this point, the BSA probably retains more members than they would gain by changing their policies. Sure they lose some due to current policy, but on balance few compared to alternative. At some point, as Barry notes, that is likely to change and when it does so will the BSA. I personally think that may come sooner than some expect, but it will happen. At that point those that don't like the changes may start their own organization and maybe the BSA monopoly on scouting will be broken. Who knows?

Other than individual units I don't think situations like those described in the OP do much to effect membership one way or another. Far more damaging are articles about scout leaders being arrested for holding or diseminating child pornography or worse. Given the the publicity about priests, coaches, teachers, scout leaders etc. related to sexual activity and children is it any wonder parents hover?

Let's face it, the general public probably doesn't quite get why grown men dressed in knee socks and shorts wearing beads and bobbles, want to take a bunch of boys camping in the woods.

SA

As Calico noted, this isn't the fist time a well liked and respected member has been kicked out and won't be the last. But as more and more states legalized gay marriages, gay unions, recognize gay unions, as more private companies give domestic partner benefits, etc. there will be more and more families in this situation. BSA will need to adapt or become recognized as an organization out of step with the rest of society.

I see Mitt Romney seems to think gays are capable of being good leaders and as being as good a citizen as anyone else given his recent appointment for foreign policy advisor. As Cal says, if a Mormon, leading Presidential candidate can recognize this, seems like the BSA could, and eventually will.

The easiest way is simply to allow local option for the COs, the same way the do with women. I suspect it won't happen with a lot of fanfare, it will be decided in one of those double secret boad meetings and the next time someone calls with a complaint, National will simply defer to the local CO.

SA

We had an Eagle do the Hiking MB because he couldn't swim well enough to do the swimming MB. Not one of his hikes included a 10 lap march around a 1mile track.

The best way to find out who can do a 10 miler is to plan several 2 -5 milers to interesting locations. Plenty of great hikes out there all over the country to introduce scouts of any fitness level to the activity.

We had one local troop that worked on the Badge, hike the length of the Cape Cod National Seashore for their 20 miler. 20 miles in soft sand. No wussies in that outfit.

SA

As a Risk Manager and Health and Safety professional myself I have to agree with Beavah's assessment of our role in an organization. Our job is to provide advice and recommendations to decision makers that need to make decisions based on all criteria combined, not just safety. All activity comes with some degree of risk and we need to manage the risk appropriately, not totally avoid it.

On the other hand I have worked with too many "decision makers" that really don't want the responsibility of making decisions and often defer to technical specialists and then blame them for the decisions. i.e. "the Legal Department won't let us, ...the Safety Manager says we can't."

Ultimately the decisions about what's appropriate and what isn't is upto the program people not the risk managers. If there's a beef with program limitations it's with the program folks that agreed to this nonsense. I would like to see the accident statistics that support the kind of risk limitations outline in the recommendations. Just how many Cub Scouts have been injured pulling wagons in the last 10 years? Young Boy Scouts injured using a paint roller or electric screwdriver?

I don't see how one can sell a program to young men as "adventurous" with these kinds of limitations. As Beav noted, national has no more ability to assess an adult leader's proficiency with an electric drill or lawn mower than they do a leader's ability to oversee backpacking or even simple hiking trips.

Let the Parlour games begin.

Ironically the top grossing movie the last few weeks has as it's premise teenagers fighting to the death. Good thing it's fiction because our scouts will be in no position of compete.

SA

I suspect Rick Santorum has little to do with this and it is more the political upstarts tweaking the establishment. Good for them.

SA

SP, as cynical as I can sometimes be, I do applaud your civic involvement. Conservatives in the Republican party may not be a majority, but they are involved and have had a significant impact on the national debate. They more than any other group have taken the political establishment of both parties to task through involvement in the political process.

SA

Massachusetts also has a primary and awards delegate votes based on the results of the primary. There are then state party conventions that decide who those delegates will be. The actual people that will go national convention. Who they will vote for has already been decided by the primary. I'm generally under the assumption these appointments are determines the way most political selections are made...it's based on who you are related to and/or how much $$ you have donated to the party or lead candidate.

SA

"Some might view that as indifferentism. I would not get involved with an organization that promoted that view."

You do realize that the BSA perspective on religion is much more like that of the Masons and the Rainbow girls than the AHG don't you.

SA

"Mr. Romney stands an excellent chance, especially if he positions himself as a moderate and distances himself from the anti-woman issues that seem to be popular with some Republicans. "

In other words, time to break out the etch-a-sketch .

SA

"majority of the American public choose who to vote for based on SuperPAC advertisements and not facts"

Ain't that the truth and we have no one to blame but ourselves. Politicians wouldn't run the kind of negative advertisements we see if they didn't work...and the sad fact is there is ample evidence they do work. Heck you have to be more truthful in an ad promoting corn flakes than a PAC needs to be when airing an ad about a candidate.

SA

"That may be enough to fool the masses and allow Obama to say he's "growing" the economy without lying, but it just isn't true as a share of the world market and in a comparison to the growth trend of the American economy. "

The real fooling of the masses is the idea the President... Obama, Bush, Romney or whomever really has much to do with the economy anyway. That is if you believe in a free capitalist system, and as much govt intrusion as there is, we still have one of the freeist econonomies in the world. Short of Nixon style wage/price controls there's really not much a President can do on his own to effect the economy, especially in the short term. But I agree, the masses will attribute the state of the economy to the sitting President, right or wrong. It sunk Carter and Bush I. I also agree Romney needs to keep the debate about the economy. If it slips into social issues, like women's access to birth control, he's toast.

It will be interesting to see who Romney picks as a VP. Will he make the same mistake McCain made and pick someone that will fire up the hard right of the party, but put off moderates, or will he be more pragmatic and look to the middle?

SA

So what other groups that have requested this kind of relationship have been refused by the BSA? I really don't know the answer, but that would be the issue.

If GSUSA wanted a similare association and the the BSA refused I could understand. But it's my understanding that in the past it was the BSA that made overtures towards GSUSA in terms of partnering at some level and it was the GSUSA that said thanks but no thanks.

SA

Of course he has a chance. Probably a decent one. Although I think it's less than 50/50. And I agree it will be the economy that will be the biggest factor. If the economy keeps adding 200,000 jobs/month and the unemployment rate keeps inching down, and the economy keeps up with even a weak recovery, I think Mitt has a tough time. On the other hand if there is an international crisis with say Iran, and gas prices surge and the economy stalls or falters in the next six months, Obama will be the one that will have a tough time.

I just find it ironic that with the Republicans so focused on defeating Obama, they will ulitmately select a candidate that from a policy standpoint is most like Obama. Apparently they seem to believe most Americans are not really true conservatives.

SA

"partnering with and favoring a religiously exclusivist organization." Hard to believe there are 15 pages dedicated to this. The BSA already partners with literally hundreds of COs that are religiously exclusive. There are units that are only Jewish, Muslim, Christian,(incluidng specific sects of Christianity)and I'm sure others. This is a pointless argument.

I'll admit, if I had a daughter I'd probably not encourage her join this organiztion, and there are other opportunities for girls available.

SA

Many councils and districts put together crews for HA activities. At the very least this information should be made available to all scouts. As mentioned before some units put together a goal a couple of years out and begin to fundraise. This is a great way for scouts that would otherwise never get the opportunity to participate in a HA activity if they are willing to put in the work.

On the other hand there are many inexpensive HA that can often be done locally. The unit I'm associated with has run a 4-5 day backpacking trip somewhere in New England during school April break each of the last three years. No plane fare, no unit fees, just the cost of gas for a two hour drive and food. HA doesn't need to be High Cost.

SA

Ya, I meant no one here.

Sure there are wackos out there. I have no doubt there certain white supremist groups that would have a bounty on Tevor had he survived, grabbed the gun and shot Zimmerman and walked away without charges.

Zimmerman might actually be better off arrested. At least then he could be in protective custody and a full investigation instead of a trial by media.

SA

No one is looking for a lynching. But as a parent and citizen I have a concern that when one private citizen guns down another one, it takes a media outcry for a thorough investigation to be done. Heck a traffic accident involving a fatality gets more of an investigation than was initially done. Thankfully, due to the media attention, one is underway, but it shouldn't take that.

SA

The eyewitness accounts corroborate the fact there was a scuffle. There is no corroboration of Zimmerman's account that he returned to his vehicle, then got out again and that Trevor attacked him. The eyewitness accounts don't start until after the scuffle begins and someone starts yelling for help. And there are cell phone records corrobating the fact Trevor was talking to his girlfriend 5 minutes before the police arrived. We don't know the specifics of that conversation other than what a teenage black girl has to say.

Like I said to believe Zimmerman you have to believe an unarmed teenager in a strange neighborhood walking back from a convienience store would choose to turn and attack an adult that had been following him by himself. And you have to totally discount the story of a teenage black girl.

SA

To buy Zimmerman's story, that he disengaged and that Tevor approached and attacked him, you have to believe that an unarmed teenager, lawfully going about his business, who is being followed by an adult stranger in an area where Trevor is a visitor, after talking to his girlfriend on a cellphone, decides to turn and pursue and attack the stranger in the stranger's own neighborhood by himself.

SA

I don't mean to speak for Lisabob, but I don't think she see's the event as described above either. She sees it as a parent who sent their son to the local store and doesn't come home. Then finds out he's been shot dead.

I'm sympathetic to Lisa's viewpoint as a parent. It's mine. Bottom line is a kid that simply walked to the local store and was walking back to his father, and no evidence has been presented he had anything else in mind other than to return to the apartment he was visiting, until some stranger starts following him and it turns out the stranger following him has a gun. As a parent I'm thinking why is this guy following any kid who is simply walking on a walkway in a housing/condo complex with a gun?

SA

"Let's trust the system to work. "

Well now that it's fully engaged I'll go along with that.

The "system" initially was going to write this off as "self-defense", no investigation, no arrest. Ironically if a police officer had shot Trevon there would be a full investigation with respect to the use of deadly force. But apparently a private citizen with a weapon can approach someone who unarmed, is lawfully present and walking, get into an altercation, shoot a person and simply walk away.

SA

I tend to agree with CP but the one thing that is perfectly clear is this case is currently being tried by the media and court of public opinion. If Zimmerman wants a fair trial such a venue is hardly fair or in the interest of justice.

SA

Personally I believe the incident is less about race than ignorance and stupidity.

This was a mixed race neighborhood. Seeing people of several races walking about would not have been unusual. Trayvon was someone that Zimmerman didn't recognize. For reasons of his own he chose to pursue an confront Trayvon, with a weapon. I'd like to see an arrest, if only for the legal process to figure out if this is a crime or not. If not, it should be.

SA

" It seems obvious that he was a threat to the shooter."

Have to correct this to , "It seems obvious the shooter perceived he was a threat."

However, this is what law enforcement is for. It is not up to a private citizen to seek out and investigate and do something about a perceived threat. It also seems to me that the shooter was not "standing his ground." If anyone was standing their ground it was Trayvon. How would you respond to an individual that followed you in a car, gets out of a car with a firearm and have no place to run?

SA