scouter659

Take a look at teachmeteamwork.com

I wonder if anyone can share any ideas or opinions on this one. Almost 2 years ago, a very dynamic assistant scoutmaster took over for the retiring scoutmaster of our troop. He has been with the unit for many years and was a natural choice among all of the leadership and committee that he should do the job. Hes a great people person and the boys loved the idea as well. His greatest strength is his ability to train junior leaders and that has resulted in better than average youth leadership in the troop. He is a really NICE guy but that is somewhat of a problem. During the past few years the general discipline of the unit has been on a slide. One of the unique problems we face is that the boys never misbehave when hes around so he never directly sees insubordination. He is aware of it and freely admits that disciplining is not his strong suit and he is about to reach out for help among the leadership. We want to keep him as scoutmaster and are just looking for ideas in support of him. Of course, its all even more complex than I can explain here but wed like to know what seasoned veterans think of the situation. The main thing is that we want to keep him as scoutmaster. He is a talented leader with so much more to offer just weak in the discipline dept. What do you think?

In just over a month from now I'll be going to my 6th consecutive Summer Camp but this is my first since taking over as Scoutmaster earlier this year. I spend almost every waking moment thinking about how perfect I'd like it to be, although I know that things aren't always perfect. But I am preparing and think I have put together a good plan for our Junior Leaders to truly run it. I am arranging for 5 of our Staff members to have various jobs for the week in camp and am assigning one of them the task of making sure, with the help of others, that a small campfire is burning by 9pm in case I decide to deliver a SM minute before they relax and retire for the night. So I'm driving into work this morning and, although I am not at all deeply religious, I thought a nice prayer might be nice to help set the pace for the week and these words just came to me. I hope no one finds it inappropriate if I share it with you in case anyone's interested. I guess I was just thinking, gee I suppose a SM minute like couldn't hurt:

A Summer Camp Prayer

Lord, please grant us a productive and safe week in camp.

Help us to take seriously, the opportunity to take a giant step forward in our advancement goals.

May we model our behavior according to the words of the Scout Oath and Law and to treat each other with dignity and respect as brothers as we share the week together in your great outdoors.

From the Young Brave, to the veteran Scout to the adult leader, help us to grow, learn and live according to the principles established by Scoutings founder, Baden Powell.

Guide us to truly help other people at all times and to keep safe our families and friends back home.

Allow us Lord, to have the kind of week that will let us tell great stories about for many years to come.

Amen

I think this forum can, at time, be a great source for Scouters.

Enjoy your summer.

Ive just started to get up to speed on your story and it all seems crazy to me. I have been involved, through my son, with our Troop for about 15 years and just last December became Scoutmaster. Heres my quick spin. I guess I look at every boy as an individual. They come in all shapes and sizes, not to mention personality quirks. Hmmm, sounds like most adults I know. Arent we there to teach, spread the principles of Scouting and train them to be leaders? We have a boy who has been with us for 3 years who has down syndrome. HE has been a miracle and just by his presence has taught all of us more about the special needs of human beings than we can ever hope to learn. Nobodys perfect and I would hate to criticize a 20 year Scouting veteran but it does appear to me too that he is out of line. Ive read, with great interest so many of the responses and tend to lean with the people who think you should find another Troop. I dont know where you are but I hope theres a healthy dose of alternatives for you to choose from and wish you the best of luck.

Thank you all very much. To be honest, your responses were what I was hoping to hear. Funny how a parent can throw you off your game sometimes and actually make you doubt what you're doing is correct. Or maybe it's that important to have a good conscience and have the need to reaffirm your decisions. I love helping to conduct the training program and feel that if even one boy is so inspired to become a better leader and human being then we've done our job. The web site I was referring to by the way is www.scouter659.htmlplanet.com

My hectic schedule precludes me from doing a lot of updates but a lot of the info is there. I am hoping that, after this weekend, I'll have time to insert photos of the 'Trust-Fall' in question. Again...thank you all.

Yep...that's the one.

Hello all:

Just would like to get a few opinions here. This weekend were going to be presenting our 6th consecutive Troop Junior Leader Training Graduation Weekend. This is an event that we created that is the culmination of a yearlong JLT course that we have developed over the years. Without getting into specifics that would require many pages of written volumes, were very proud of our course and have developed a website that, as we understand it, many Troops use as a model to design their own JLT courses as well.

I wanted to give you a little background before getting to the meat of my issue. Part of the Training weekend involved a Trust-Fall activity. It is run by C.O.P.E. Trained skilled Scouters and has become a highlight feature of the weekend that we do directly following a very good class on Youth Protection that is very age appropriate. It is a highlight but only one of many different activities that we present throughout the weekend.

This year, we have a mom who is extremely upset about the Trust Fall activity. I explained to her that no activity is forced and there are times when some boys opt out of even doing it. That is handled in a very respectful and positive way. She was basically insisting that we cancel that exercise altogether. My first impression was simply that her son certainly doesnt have to participate in it and theres no problem thereit will in no way affect the outcome of everything he has earned in the course along the way. She went on to tell me how she has lost sleep for a few nights thinking about it and was very upset.

I got to thinking about how dangerous camp, in generally can be. I guess, as soon as we step out of the car at camp we all enable the possibility of danger. I guess its possible to severely twist an ankle on uneven terrain. We allow Scouts to handle axes, knives, bow saws, lightweight stoves and matches and, wellI guess that can be dangerous. So I wondered if denying the 10 other boys involved, most of who know about the activity and are looking forward to it should be denied the experience.

I even had doubts about doing the exercise at all wondering if it is even an approved activity by the BSA. I decided to call and speak to a professional about the situation. Well, I found out that it is a sanctioned and approved activity falling under the 2002 revisions of C.O.P.E. and it goes on to talk about what a positive experience it can be and the good things that it teaches.

I called her back and the compromise is that the Scout in question and his dad will simply take an impromptu walk with his son away from the activity. Shes mad at me for going back on my word but, not being new to Scouting but new as a Scoutmaster, I felt it my responsibility to both respect her feelings AND research the thing to make sure that its alright to do. I intensely thought about the good of the one and the good of the group.

I was just wondering if anyone has had a similar experience and how it may have been handled.

In my heart, I just want to see everyone walk away happy from any experience we present and the thought of doing anything that would hurt a child is obscene to me. In addition, theres nothing we would make them do that we wouldnt do ourselves.

Is there an added sense of danger involved? Possibly but I dont take anything lightly and am solidly confident in our staff. How safe are our homes?

Like many of you, I am inspired by teaching kids good things and thats what it is in my heart.

I may have a chance to check in on this forum tomorrow but them I am off the weekend and will look forward to any follow up that may be posted.

Thank you.

Like many of you have said we allow matches but we don't like lighters. And it's also true that most of the boys don't bring them anyway. We do, however, issue matches to Patrols when we train them on and they cook with lightweight stoves. We actually also teach match lighting techniques because, believe it or not, a lot of boys aren't accustomed to that. We see many of them strike the match and watch as it goes out before reaching an igniter. So in our Junior Leader Training course when we teach things like dual fuel stoves, we also teach them the proper way to strike a match and cup their hand to keep the flame lit all the while making them understand that, like a wrench, a match is a tool. Bottom line is I also agree that the idea of it not being allowed truly may be urban legend.

We have an interesting Troop Junior Leader Training website you may like:

www.scouter659.htmlplanet.com

HOLD EVERYTHING! I found it. I am preparing for the end of our year-long Troop JLT course and I really like to use this poem...can't believe I misplaced it. I'd like to share it with you all & I'll explain how I use it. The JLT candidates are lined up and each get a piece of nylon rope about 8 inches long and we ask, "What can you do with a piece of rope like that"? We get a few answers but then we ask each boy to tie a square knot to the next one, and the end of the rope to the next boy and so on. When it is one long length we ask them again and get a host of great answers. We then read them this:

I picked some scraps of rope apart

To see how they were made.

Most of it was twisted hemp

Yet some was cotton braid.

And from the stuff I played with

I thought aloud, "Rope size runs

To hawsers that hold battleships

of fifty thousand tons.

But there's another kind of rope

Not made by a machine.

Stronger than the best steel cable

Yet so fine it can't be seen.

I'm not talking of the kind of rope

That anybody buys.

But the magic line of friendship

That holds two friendly guys.

I learned a lot of things at camp

But the best trick that I got

Was to take that line of friendship

And tie the proper knot.

(Author Unknown)

Since some of you may have gone through the trouble of looking I thought it responsible to share it since I FOUND IT!

Thanks and enjoy!

I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with a little poem about rope and the analogy drawn in the verses is all about the ties that bind friendship in Scouting. I used this poem for the last few years at the end of our Troop JLT course and I seemed to have misplaced it. If someone out there knows what I'm talking about or has a copy or can provide a link where I might find it I would appreciate it. I believe I found it once somewhere in the vast collections of Scoutmaster Minutes on the web but I have checked the major ones and can't seem to locate it. I check out the forums every few weeks and have often replied to issues and have also been helped with many opinions. Thanks for taking the time to read this and hope that someone out there may be familiar with this little, but very meaningful little poem. Thanks! I'll be checking for replies late tonight and tomorrow. Good Scouting to you all.

I joined our Troop as Committee Chairman (why I took on that job immediately is a long story...perhaps someday 'round the campfire) when my son was 11. He will soon be 23 and is still an active ASM.

About 9 years ago if someone would have told me I would go to (what was then Scoutmaster Fundamental Training) I would have said you're crazy. I went, loved it and it inspired me to create a year-long Troop Junior Leader Training Course.

About 5 years ago if someone would have told me that I'll be going to Wood Badge, I would have said IMPOSSIBLE...no time for THAT. I went, it was incredible (One of the first in our region to do the 21st. Century Course).

If 3 years ago someone would have told me I would be on Wood Badge Staff I would have said...I don't think I really have the talent for that. Last year...Troop Guide NEIII-163.

I assumed the role of Scoutmaster last December because our prior Scoutmaster (a dear old friend who is still with us) had just had enough after 14 years.

If someone would have said when I joined that someday you'll be the Scoutmaster...I would have said, YEAH RIGHT...GET THERAPY!

Best and most rewarding decision I ever made. You should make that decision too. I agree with many of the others, your strengths WILL get stronger and your weaknesses will slowly melt away. Just surround yourself with the right people to make the program happen the way you would like and VALUE their friendship & opinion even if it sometimes means swaying to the other side. That's not losing control, that's diplomacy.

Best of luck and it seems you'll do well. For anyone to even post here and ask strangers their opinion says a lot for you.

Good Scouting www.scouter659.htmlplanet.com

Hello all. Actually I was the person that posted in the previous thread regarding the Leaders Meetings. I dont think youre out of touch at all. I do think that the leadership structure of most Scout Troops vary from Unit to Unit. In our case, we have in excess of 20 very active ASMs, 12 of which are Wood Badge Trained (four of whom who have served on Staff) the rest except for one great new guy are all basic trained. We are a close knit group passionate about the Unit and helping to turn young boys into better human beings. We also subscribe heavily to the boy-run concept and Patrol Method of Scouting. We also meet as a leadership group, perhaps, in a sharing of ideas that keeps enhancing our program. Its just the structure of how we do things. And now, we plan on including our SPL and Junior Asst. Scoutmasters to those meetings that were previously inclusive. Like most Units, we are always evolving and changing. This works for us and we are, proudly, one of the premier Units in our District and Council. We also have a Year-Long Junior Leader Training program, the most comprehensive training system that we know of to train our youth to lead better. That, I would guess is an unheard of concept as well. I feel lucky to be involved in such a smooth running, diverse and concerned group of people who are focused on an ongoing set of goals to be the best we can be. It just works for us. As Scoutmaster, I very much appreciate the input of everyone and I still have the final say. But I do appreciate your comments.

Yes it is sticky, isnt it? We had a similar situation in our Troop where a dad who was also a leader had to go for a variety of very good reasons. Now he and his wife are divorced but somewhat amicable. Their son is in our Troop and doing well, a great kid. Mom watches him (and us, the leaders) like a hawk but she is, inside, a good person who also understood the problems with the dad. True we could not remove him from Scouting, and that wasnt our intent but he WAS detrimental to the Unit. Its sad and, fortunately, very rare when something like this happens. I wish you luck.

Thank you for all of the great replies! The structure of our Troop is that Committee meetings are actually separate things, as are our leader meetings, PLC's etc. I think because of the uniqueness of our leadership group this action would be most appropriate at this time. I feel kind of bad for the one Scouter (Fat Old Guy) who replied giving the impression that their Scoutmaster is IT and what HE says goes. Personally, I am a big fan of the 'Shared Leadership' concept and, as I have just taken over the position, I am NOT looking to make sweeping changes...just ones that I believe will improve an already successful group and its program. By the way, I love this forum and being able to gather opinions from everywhere. This forum is a great tool for getting a feel for what's out there. Thanks!

I would like to get some opinions on something. I just became SM of our Troop of 40 boys and large leadership team, 20 adults, just about all trained. We have frequent leader meetings throughout the year as we are constantly tweaking and adjusting our program. Some years ago there was a bit of a controversy concerning allowing our Senior Patrol Leader and, possibly, Junior Assistant Scoutmasters (we currently have 2) to attend our Leaders meetings. I have always felt that they should, if not have input, at least see how that process happens. I also think it may not be such a bad idea to get a youths point of view every now and then especially when THEY are the ones who actually run the Troop. If, for some reason, we would have to meet to discuss some kind of sensitive matter maybe involving another person, then I would say it wouldnt be appropriate for them to be present. But heres part of my thinking. We are such a nice tight-knit group of leaders, really like family in many ways and we are all held together by the common thread of presenting a good consistent program for the boys. I want to say that I actually feel very lucky to be a part of this fine group. Our boys know us very well and the ones who play key youth leadership roles are great kids, great Scouts. I think it would be a good thing for them to see OUR process of how policy is formed, discussed and executed. I should also mention that we are as boy-run as possible in MOST areas and we do subscribe to the Patrol Leaders Council method but the leaders also meet separately to keep reviewing the over-all scheme and to make sure that they are getting our very best. Our former Scoutmaster, great guy and still active and one older long-time Assistant were the only ones to be negatively vocal about this idea in the passed. I have run the idea around to them again, as I did in the past and theyre feeling more agreeable about it. I have also polled a few other key players and they seem to have no problem with it. I guess Im looking for opinions from someone who may be involved with a similar strong team and if there are any parallels out there. Id like to see what outsiders think about it before I make the move. Ill be checking this forum as much as possible in between work over the next few days and appreciate the input. Thanks.

GM Buy Power Manager for a Chevrolet Dealership. In between battles, I am thankful to have the time to do Scouting. I am also lucky that the dealership is very pro-Scouting. We can do unlimited car washes here for fund raising and the management is very supportive in my efforts to be involved in such a great organization.

I agree with a few of the other posts that mention that a little more information would be helpful. We recently experienced a problem like this. It was a complicated matter that would take up an awful lot of space to get into but the bottom line was that he had to go. He was quite a negative influence on an otherwise very smooth sailing ship. We discussed the matter with our Dist. Executive and Dist. Director as well as the head of our institution before sending him a registered letter that basically described the reasons for us asking him to leave the Unit. Understand that this kind of thing is always an absolute last resort. This was an unpleasant experience for us as well as for him but it was understood among the leadership that it was the right thing to do. We have our share of complainers like most Troops do. When complaining grossly crosses the line and spills out beyond the Unit then something has to be done for the good of the group.

Many Great ideas here...thank you!

I don't know if anyone else experiences this but, sometimes, we don't always get a large participation at our Courts of Honor. We hold 2 per year. One just before Christmas and the other at the end of May or early June. Sometimes we do just fine.

It has been suggested that our Troop think about trying a "Red and Green" dinner at the end of the year, similar to the "Blue and Gold" of Cub Packs. In essence, we would prefer to have the event catered and would charge a small fee for the dinner etc. I think it's a nice idea but here's my main reservation. Our Troop camps every month all year long so families are always paying for that. There are also, on occasion, other things we do for a fee, not to mention the weekly dues and all of that. We also promote the payment of summer camp throughout the year. I'm not sure if families are going to get excited about paying for an end of year dinner as well.

I can see how it works in Cubbing basically because it's, pretty much for the most part, the only thing people really pay extra for all year. Excluding, of course, Pinewood Derby cars or if their sending their children to Cub Resident camp in the summer.

My question is, has anyone tried a dinner / Court of Honor like this and has it worked for you?

I'll be checking to see your feedback and will add follow-through comments if needed.

Thanks.

Yes Dan, I am here and will certainly continue to keep checking this post until the responses are exhausted. I really have learned a few things here and do consider myself open-minded. I have decided that I am going to be patient. After all, knowing that she sits in the vast minority of opinions of the running of our Troop (actually sits alone) I think that if I stay prepared enough to respond to her suggestions respectfully in case I am harpooned by her again like at a parent meeting, I should be ok. No, I do not just feel that I am always right. The responses here really have tempered my feelings on this and my bottom line is to continue to deliver the best possible program to her son who, after all, is why we do what we do.

This email communication is really difficult because the human touch is so lacking. I really just wanted to let you know about our level of Training. I guess we don't have a level of experience of dealing something quite like this because in all of the years that I have been with the Troop no one had ever complained about the program like this and she does so quietly. Probably because she knows that she may be the only one who feels this way. To clarify further, we have not (yet) sent her a letter. It was her ex-husband who really had to go. I guess what I am impossibly trying to explain is in an otherwise very wonderful world.

Regarding the Scout alone in a tent, I appreciate that you are so well versed in these matters. It may be that we 'thought' we saw that somewhere but we still think there are safety issues involved so we just don't allow it. That is all beside the point.

I am not saying we are perfect. In fact I'm certain we are far from it but we have been able to successfully keep a constant number of boys in our Unit and have a larger than normal group of leaders all of whom feel like family. This is hard to explain but it just feels, for lack of a better term, mean-spirited. That's all I'm saying. We have a great time with a great Troop Junior Leader Training Course, a great Scout's Own at every campout, an emphasis on advancement for all and, like you and others, a desire to teach youth something they just can't get anywhere else.

Fortunately she doesn't complain in front of her son and, apparently doesn't appear to discuss the negatives. That may be why he continues to be a great kid who sure seems to be happy in our Troop.

Posting here though has been an interesting experience and I have very much appreciated the wide range of opinion.

Thank you

I got quite caught up in the responses from evmori and bob whiteTo be fair, I should offer a little more information. Regarding your question of training; there are 12 Wood Badge trained leaders in our Unit. I, myself, have taken Wood Badge and just finished being a Troop Guide on Staff for the last course in our Council. The rest of our leaders have all had Basic Leader Essentials, Leader Specific Training and Outdoor Skills.

The lady's husband was 'formally' asked to leave our Troop a few months ago after running around to other significant volunteers with stories that eventually reached us and damage control was no problem because of our stellar reputation in our District and Council. He was an active Scouter and Trainer but there are several side-issues for him that caused many other problems.

So now, we have the boy and, yes, a terrific kid. Mom's presence, however, keeps us in a constant state of defensive posture whenever she is around.

Regarding our program involving tent and cabin camping; boys who are 'cold weather trained' and have the right gear can tent camp whenever they want. I do believe though, according to the guide to safe Scouting, a boy can't be left alone out in a tent when the rest of the Troop is camping indoors.

Further, we have a Troop of 45 or so and 35 to 40 are very active. Our leaders are a 'Dream Team' with no in-fighting, cliques or backstabbing of any kind.

I have been with the Troop for over 13 years and one month ago took over as Scoutmaster. That is why I posted the original message. I was just looking for someone with, possibly, a similar experience and, perhaps, some suggestions as what to do next.

Although I do have some ideas.

scouter659

...and a good old bob white too

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on something like this. We have a really boy in the Troop who is into his third year and coming along just fine. Mom and dad are divorced and he lives with mom. Mom comes down and sits through virtually every Scout meeting and that is no problem. The problem though is that she continually criticizes our program to the leaders. She also, sometimes, is interfering in subtle ways. For example, if she happens to see some random moment she doesn't like an older boy making some off color comment to a younger Scout, she will go ahead and just speak to the Scout. I may not be explaining this well but it appears to us as though she just sits there waiting for negatives. Most recently, her son and another son asked if they could sleep in a tent when the rest of the Troop was in a cabin. To clarify, our policy is that we offer that to the boys if they have been 'cold weather trained' and if they have the right gear. The first night was just fine but on the second night, the other boy wanted to sleep inside. No problem there except that now we cannot allow one boy to sleep out there alone, BSA policy. Her son was leaving early and she came to pick him up. While there, again, criticized the program saying to the leader that we should do more tent camping. She mentioned a Troop up on a hill above where our cabin was that were in tents. We are not a high adventure type of Troop but that is our program. We camp almost every single month and, in the colder months, we are in cabins except for the offer made to the trained Scouts that I mentioned. We also have a separate older boy program with leaders who are more skilled in outdoor arts. We have about 45 boys in the Troop and a large and dedicated leadership team. This person, however, is continually critical and her presence gets us down. Last year we actually sent her a letter recommending another Troop for her son where he may enjoy a different outdoor program even more. But he is still with us and he is a terrific kid. His mother, however, is constantly negative and critical. Has anyone ever seen something like this or does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle a situation like it?

I learned a great deal from my Wood Badge course NE III - 151. I learned that if the program is executed correctly you can't help not to produce better human beings. There were so many fine moments on my course. If you've considered Wood Badge but aren't sure, there's something to be said about being in the middle of 50 or 60 Scouters who 'believe' in the organization aims and principles. It will rub off on you. I recently finished my ticket and am planning a bead ceremony in December. I have also been informed that I am under consideration to serve on the Staff of the next course. After having experienced Wood Badge for the 21st. Century, it would be a high honor to be a part of a group of people responsible to present this wonderful material. I used to be a Bob WhiteI always will.