sailingpj

Are non-Christian prayers acceptable at council or district events? At my local council and district events' date=' the opening prayer or invocation usually takes one of two forms: overtly Christian (“In Jesus’ name, amenâ€Â) or generic (“May the great Scout Master...â€Â). Almost never overtly Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. Now I live in a diverse region, we have many churches and temples of different faiths in the area (there is even a Zoroastrian temple in town - I’ve been told one of the local troops has a pair of Zoroastrian scouts). In my own pack, most of the families are various flavors of Christian (mostly Catholic), but we have, or have had, Muslims, Jewish and Hindu families. So this topic came up for discussion with some scouters at a round table BBQ a while back. One of the scouters said that his previous council (he has recently moved to our area) all the prayers were overtly Christian, and he had offered to give a Muslim prayer to open a round table (he is Muslim). He was told no because too many scouters would be offended so it wasn’t allowed (there is a story he was told to go along with that - I don’t want to derail the discussion, so I won’t repeat it here). I found this to be very surprising (and hope what he was told was incorrect). I have no reason to believe a similar rule exists in my local council or district. So the question: would you be offended if an overtly Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, or other non-Christian prayer was used to open a district or council event (unit events are a different issue)? If yes, why? And if yes, are you also offended by overtly Christian prayers (and if no to that, why not)? Does your local district or council have a rule against non-Christian prayers at district or council events?[/quote']

 

 

Our council pretty much keeps it generic. I would have no problem with Muslim or Jewish or Buddhist or any other prayer (with the exception of Satanic) at a Scout event, provided that it was done by a Scout or Scouter of whatever faith.

Lol, I have talked to a couple satanists over the internet, and while I don't subscribe to their beliefs the ones I talked to were normal people.

Are non-Christian prayers acceptable at council or district events? At my local council and district events' date=' the opening prayer or invocation usually takes one of two forms: overtly Christian (“In Jesus’ name, amenâ€Â) or generic (“May the great Scout Master...â€Â). Almost never overtly Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. Now I live in a diverse region, we have many churches and temples of different faiths in the area (there is even a Zoroastrian temple in town - I’ve been told one of the local troops has a pair of Zoroastrian scouts). In my own pack, most of the families are various flavors of Christian (mostly Catholic), but we have, or have had, Muslims, Jewish and Hindu families. So this topic came up for discussion with some scouters at a round table BBQ a while back. One of the scouters said that his previous council (he has recently moved to our area) all the prayers were overtly Christian, and he had offered to give a Muslim prayer to open a round table (he is Muslim). He was told no because too many scouters would be offended so it wasn’t allowed (there is a story he was told to go along with that - I don’t want to derail the discussion, so I won’t repeat it here). I found this to be very surprising (and hope what he was told was incorrect). I have no reason to believe a similar rule exists in my local council or district. So the question: would you be offended if an overtly Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, or other non-Christian prayer was used to open a district or council event (unit events are a different issue)? If yes, why? And if yes, are you also offended by overtly Christian prayers (and if no to that, why not)? Does your local district or council have a rule against non-Christian prayers at district or council events?[/quote']

 

 

Our council pretty much keeps it generic. I would have no problem with Muslim or Jewish or Buddhist or any other prayer (with the exception of Satanic) at a Scout event, provided that it was done by a Scout or Scouter of whatever faith.

I have no problem with satanists.

So, you have a scout that you're getting frustrated with at trying to get him to do his best? Welcome to being a SM

 

Jblake could be right, no point in kicking a dead horse. However, it could also be other things. How old is this boy? Personally, I think it is a rare scout that can lead at the age of 12. 13? Maybe, 14. Also, has this boy seen it done right? Simple example is how to clean dishes. We told the scouts hot soapy water, scrape the food out, scrub, etc, but it still took 6 months before they got those ideas. Now it's no longer an issue. Scouts see how it's done and when it's their turn to lead they know what we mean my cleaning. Words don't have nearly the impact as seeing it done.

 

It gets down to figuring out whether the boy is trying and wants to do it right, but for whatever reason is failing, vs a boy that just can't be bothered. Many boys, if they don't know how to do something, will end up looking like they don't care when they care a lot. So I certainly can't give you any advice on how to deal with this boy.

DW, if you cuss. You secure my contentment at National's dismissal of your claims.

 

For the other folks that may be in your predicament. I'm just a guy in the trenches.

 

Just thinking about the depiction of events:

 

.... At one point, the BSA attorney asked me about "God". ... I said that I was confused by his question and I needed to know the official BSA definition of "God" that he was applying, .... I saw the plaintiff attorneys wake up just then, though sadly too late. I also saw the BSA defendent attorney back-pedal furiously to get himself out of that quagmire ....

 

Again ...

 

He said, "God is whatever you say it is." So, knowing something about some non-theistic religious traditions, I offered an idea. "No, that's not it. But God is whatever you say it is." So I offered another well-considered idea and he again responded with, "No, that's not it either. But God is whatever you say it is." After a few more iterations of this nonsense, I stated, "Well, obviously my own ideas are 'God' are not the same as yours." at which point he terminated the conversation, obviously satisfied that he had gotten what he had wanted.

 

I gotta, say. It sounds like asking a kangaroo, "Can you do something about this kick-me sign?" There is nothing but pain in that line of inquiry.

 

Here's what I've garnered from what little BSA training I've had. Their definition DOES NOT MATTER. An attempt to lead a plaintiff to leverage a relativistic-argument DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is if when asked, one can say they are living a life answerable to God. The asker may not understand the breadth of that as well as the person being asked does -- or maybe it's the other way around. But, the choice of that word allows for that kind of latitude. At least what I've been taught through BSA's instruction on the matter, is that a person's willingness to say they are doing that is all I need to know. Then again, all that was in the context of taking care of youth -- not in the context of selecting adult leaders.

 

I don't think the folks who would take action to reject an adult leader are on this forum, so a straight answer as to how things are being done now (or iff there is any method to the madness) is not forthcoming. Although Khaleila's testimony indicates that at least at the council or area levels, there are lines drawn in the sand.

DW' date=' if you cuss. You secure my contentment at National's dismissal of your claims.[/quote']

 

Are you saying that people who swear should not be leaders in scouts?

Maybe the loss in membership is very simple. Our society no longer holds things like honesty, truth, real altruistic actions or thoughts, or other more traditional moral ideas as important. The ego -centrism of so much of our population and the mocking attitude towards idealism is reflected in the sneering comments such as "he such a boy scout". That in itself is reflective of the problem. That is not to say that some people, maybe even a majority, still respect these things; but they tend to no longer feel as comfortable expressing it a lot of the time, due to the tendency for so many people to make light of them. Just an observation of an old guy.

Only time I discuss it is when Scouts don't understand why I go to the Catholic service instead of the Non denominational service. Or why I after grace at meal times I do the quirky Catholic things like making the sign of the cross. I despise the Non-denominational services in our council, which always end up being some sort of fuzzy Christian service. I feel bad for religious minorities (non protestants) who attend non-denominational services.

 

 

 

At least in our unit, Duty to God isn't really pushed. It's supported by a few of our leaders being religious emblem advisors if enough of the Scouts wish to partake in that, but we don't really push it as Adult leaders in our unit.

 

 

 

I think discussion of religion should not be a taboo thing. So much of the issues between religious groups (especially with teenagers) is they simply don't know what a Muslim, Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Pagan, Buddhist, Hindu believes, and they certainly don't know what agnosticism is. These groups are complex and have many similiarities and differences.

 

 

 

Especially in the teenage years where youth are still trying to figure out what they believe and who they are, Scouting can certainly help them discover that. However, Adult leaders who discuss with religion (Or he lack of religion they might have) need to avoid proselytizing or being condescending. Some of the best discussions I had as a youth was with other Scouts about their beliefs, and what they believed and why. I remember in my patrol having a Methodist, a Seventh Day Adventist, A Baptist, several non practicing Christians, a closet Atheist (He earned his Eagle Scout) and myself the Catholic. It was a wonderful dialogue, especially when my Atheist Friend learned that Catholics believe in evolution. =P

 

 

 

Sailing PJ, I don't know what beliefs you hold, but if you are uncomfortable with the services, then you should talk to somebody within the council. Or do what you did and don't go. Maybe run a troop non-denominational service instead of the camp one? If you are uncomfortable and left out, then I'm sure many of your Scouts are too. I wish you the best of luck in whatever direction you go in.

 

 

 

Yours in Scouting,

 

Sentinel947

For this specific event in question, myself and the other people who went for coffee really just did not want to be preached with watered down christian values and scriptures for an hour. It was not a big problem. All my scouts know that if they wish to do their own religious services during that time they just need to let Skip know and make arrangements to be back in time for competition. Nobody has taken us up on that yet.

... DWise refers to himself as an "atheist" which is understood to preclude belief in God. ... BSA has magnanimously and reasonably taken a stance that allows for the widest interpretation of "duty to god" to the inclusion even of philosophical belief systems that don't have a god, like Buddhism; it's bad form to turn that around on BSA and try to use it against them.

 

Sorry, the above makes no sense at all. If a Buddhist or a Unitarian or a Wiccan or a Jew can be an atheist and a member of the BSA, then a god isn't needed, and an atheist who just calls himself as an atheist should be able to join, unless the "duty to god" requirement is so shallow that a label makes all the difference. But that's just stupid.

Where I live Sea Scouts is a very different community that the other scouting organizations. There are several adult leaders now that were basically born into the program. Their parents met as scouts, then grew up to be adult leaders and had kids that they brought around the program all the time. Those kids grew up and met people in scouts and are now doing the same with their kids.

Then we have all the adult leaders that have been friends with each other since they joined in high school.

The whole community is crazy tight. It makes for interesting political games within the area, but politics and religion are never brought into it.

... DWise refers to himself as an "atheist" which is understood to preclude belief in God. ... BSA has magnanimously and reasonably taken a stance that allows for the widest interpretation of "duty to god" to the inclusion even of philosophical belief systems that don't have a god, like Buddhism; it's bad form to turn that around on BSA and try to use it against them.

 

Sorry, the above makes no sense at all. If a Buddhist or a Unitarian or a Wiccan or a Jew can be an atheist and a member of the BSA, then a god isn't needed, and an atheist who just calls himself as an atheist should be able to join, unless the "duty to god" requirement is so shallow that a label makes all the difference. But that's just stupid.

I have been reading the posts about people getting kicked out for religious reasons and was wondering how often religion actually comes up in a scouting context.

In my own unit the only time the topic ever comes up is when one of my scouts has to miss a meeting or a weekend event due to a church thing. Occasionally scouts talk to each other about what they believe and all that, but it is really just a certain pair that have quite different beliefs and they are both trying to understand the other's, plus the usual friendly joking (half my crew acts like they are siblings).

Outside of my unit the first time I ever had cause to talk to someone about religion was at an event at the end of May. That was just a lighthearted couple of comments about how every nondenominational service we have been to was decidedly christian. Then a few of us went and got coffee during the services that sunday morning because we didn't really feel right attending a christian service. The rules of the event say everyone has to either attend the services provided, or make their own arrangements and return in time for competition to start.

So yeah, my original question, how often does this actually come up.

Khaliela, my guess is that you didn't run into an official policy from National (though I have heard stories that there are people there who are actively hostile to neo-pagens), but into a group of bigoted volunteers. You should appeal it up the chain, even if it's only to get it on record.

 

Also, which council was this, and how long ago?

... DWise refers to himself as an "atheist" which is understood to preclude belief in God. ... BSA has magnanimously and reasonably taken a stance that allows for the widest interpretation of "duty to god" to the inclusion even of philosophical belief systems that don't have a god, like Buddhism; it's bad form to turn that around on BSA and try to use it against them.

 

Sorry, the above makes no sense at all. If a Buddhist or a Unitarian or a Wiccan or a Jew can be an atheist and a member of the BSA, then a god isn't needed, and an atheist who just calls himself as an atheist should be able to join, unless the "duty to god" requirement is so shallow that a label makes all the difference. But that's just stupid.

BSA's "official" definition of God is whatever the person wants it to be at the time. We "sneak" Unitarians' date=' Native American spiritualist, Pagans, and even Muslims into our troop; We may even have atheists, though none have proclaimed to be such .[/Quote']

 

First off, please don't paint all Pagans with such a broad brush. There are quite a few different belief systems that fall under the name Pagan. Some believe in one god, some believe in many gods, and some don't believe in any. There is no need to sneak us anywhere.

 

Second, Muslims most definitely have a God so they too do not need to be sneaked in.

 

If your district or council is kicking people of those faiths out then someone needs to push that a bit higher up the chain of command. Individual units on the other hand, they can set their own membership standards based on their CO.

 

Khaliela, I apologize for jumping on you there. I read more later that changed my mind. Your district and council need a rude awakening, and if this wasn't a scouting forum I would have quite a few other words to describe them.

 

meta, why doesn't this forum support strikethrough?

I have always been one that believes people donate money to a scout troop to support the scout troop, not individuals within it. I find the individual accounts unethical, but that's my personal opinion. An organization that takes in money for the "cause" only to spend it on individual interests just doesn't sit well with me.

 

So then, when I see posts like these, it only goes to show how far such abuses can be carried. A Little White Lie is to a lessor extent the same as perjury. They are both lies wearing different hats.

 

So if one looks at it from that perspective, if people give money to a troop that turns around and gives it to an individual scout, how is that any different than the scout turning it around and giving it to his parents? I'm thinking the case could then be made that the money should go to a new fishing boat for dad so he can take his scout son and his buddies out fishing every now and then.

 

Stosh

When we work crab feeds we always explain to person who asked us and is giving us the money that a portion will be used by scouts for cruises and such.

My ship has scout accounts. The reality of them is that they are nothing more than a notation on the treasurer's spreadsheet. The money is all in one of the ship's bank accounts. The majority of our fundraisers are cleaning up and serving at crab feeds, or other things like that. We occasionally get a small donation for doing a color guard. The money is split 50/50 between the general fund (pays for insurance, boat maintenance, slip fees, everything really) and the scouts that worked that fundraiser. Scouts can use that money to pay for any event the ship is attending, or any activity the ship is participating in. The crew bucks can also be used to pay for ship dues ($25 per month). When a scout leaves the ship whatever balance they have of crew bucks just reverts back to ship money.

I personally paid my way as a scout working every fundraiser I could. If a scout works every fundraiser we do each year they don't end up having to pay fees for many events.

We explain all of this to every new scout and their parents, and it is laid out in our welcome packet. As long as good records are maintained nobody complains.

I have never met anyone who thought it was unethical. As far as I know every ship in my area does something quite similar to this.

Its working now. Yay

Most of the site seems ot work for me on the latest version of google chrome, though I do get random error messages. The one thing that doesn't seem to work is the open discussion forum. I cannot see any topics. I can see the most recent activity, but not the topic view.

Most of the site seems ot work for me on the latest version of google chrome, though I do get random error messages. The one thing that doesn't seem to work is the open discussion forum. I cannot see any topics. I can see the most recent activity, but not the topic view.

I'm a bit late to this party, but I have to put in a good word for starting a Sea Scout Ship. Sea Scouts is absolutely the best program in scouting. Sea Scouts gives you all the benefits of Venturing, the community service, the moral compass, the camaraderie with your crew, all the things that people join scouting to get, but we also give you marketable job skills and a super awesome hobby. In Sea Scouts you learn a whole range of skills including how to drive and sail a boat (captain for hire, working in shipping, teaching sailing), welding, how to paint using two part epoxy primers, rigging, diesel mechanics. All of these skills are job opportunities in the making. Whether a scout is looking for a summer job, or their college plans don't work out, or they may even choose to make a career out of it.

I think Sea Scouts does a much better job of improving teenagers social skills too. There is nothing like cramming 34 kids and 8 adults onto one 65 foot boat for teaching people how to get along, and for making the best of friends.

All in all Sea Scouts Rocks!! You should start a ship.

My ship and most of the ships in my area handle it by saying no PDAs, and anytime there is free time everyone has to be in a group of 3 or more. The scouts are generally pretty good about keeping that all out of scouting. Once in a great while the teenagers do make mistakes and get caught. That always leads to a long talk with Skipper, parents, and some length of time of suspension from the ship. If it happens in the middle of an event then parents are called at 3 am to come pick up their kids.

The new Navy Uniform is set to be distributed in 2015, and they are not even changing the look. This article outlines the changed being made. No reason Sea Scouts couldn't still use them.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=67284

Eamonn, I don't mind the uniform that they came out with. I know several ships that have worn navy blue dickies for years. My gripe is that they started looking at making a new uniform a year or two ago, and now when they finally do put one out it is just another option. Not including the ship t-shirts that most all ships have, we already had 5 youth uniforms. This is in addition to those. We also already had 5 adult uniforms. This is also in addition to those. This just makes us look even less unified. Also, the chambrays can often be found at walmart.

As of 2012 there were 6670 Sea Scouts in the country. During this past year that they have been working on this uniform our membership has gone down 5%.

I notice that this site is really slow. I was able to count to 4 one thousand after clicking like before it stopped "working" and the like showed up. It also takes a long time travel from one page to another, and posting comments takes forever. It is not my connection either because everything else is still working at normal speed.

Edit: I counted to 6 one thousand before this post stopped "working" and another two before it showed up on screen.

Sorry, I got impatient and clicked a second time. This new software is slower that I am used to.

I'll be glad to delete the duplicate thread if you like. Packsaddle

So the National Sea Scout Committe came out with a new uniform to add to our list of possibilities a couple weeks ago. It is not a bad uniform, though it looks like a big cub scout uniform (no offence directed at cub scouts, I just want sea scouts to have it's own identity). Regardless of what the uniform looks like I don't get why they are spending time adding another optional uniform to our program when we lost 1400 scouts last year. Yes, I know earlier this year I was excited over our program having increased in numbers, well I was given incorrect info. I have now seen the actual numbers for the past 4 years, and IMO anyone who is spending time worrying about a 7th sea scout uniform needs to relook at their priorities. This is like polishing the brass while the ship is sinking. It is ludicrous.

http://newseascout.org/21-sea-scout-news/75-introducing-the-new-century-uniform

To veiw individual threads from oldest to newest click the "POSTS" link directly above the "Post Reply" button.

When viewing a specific forum, such as open discussion, click the "LATEST ACTIVITY" link to view the topics from the past week.

When at the main forums page, where you see the list of all the different forums, click latest activity to see the topics that have been created recently.

All I have heard is that the council committee was shut down. They better not be revoking charters; sea scouting is strongest in the southern region.