rlculver415

I'm sorry to be so late in posting here. I've been out of state all summer.

MacGregor-Smith is situated in my county. We were apprised of the sale quite some time ago - I think about two-three years. For a year after the announcement, our local troops and packs were allowed to continue using the facilities as usual. This past year the site has been closed to us so far as I am aware. At least, our troop and pack have not used it. We did use the docking facilities for a canoe trip last spring.

I would encourage any troop interested in visiting our area to check out our state's many fine camps. Our own troop has been to most all of them. I can recommend Gulf Ridge Council's camp Flaming Arrow. My son also really enjoyed Tanakeeta and Wahlwood, as well as the aforementioned La-No-Che. Of course nothing tops the Sea Base. Most camps do have AC in the dining hall and often elsewhere. And NOBODY does aquatics like Floridians!

Canoeing on the Withlacoochee River is still a viable option here in Citrus County. (I say the county name because there are 2 rivers of the same name in this state - the other being north of here.) We also offer SCUBA and snorkeling venues, and sea kayaking besides opportunities to camp, hike, etc. How about learning Wilderness Survival in the subtropics?

So come on down, we'd love to host you!

Brother Bob --

I have to admit that I agree with you, and beg you all to forgive my poor choice of words concerning the first two points. Of course he didn't quit - he "aged out". He also changed his mind about becoming an adult leader and about joining the Venturing Crew. I'm sure the continuing nastiness between mother and troop was a major factor in that mind-changing.

My troop ought to award the palms to this scout in a COH. Having lost the argument, we should be gracious, IMO. It's too bad that we didn't even know they'd been sent out to the family. They didn't come to us, nor were we aware they were sent out until the complaint was made.

I admit that I no longer admire the boy's mother. Not so much because of her rudeness to the adult leaders of this troop, but because of her displayed lack of ethics and integrity. I, for one can take the heat of an angry person. (After all, I used to work for the government. ) I can't abide dishonesty.

I have always recognized that the scout cannot be responsible for his parent's actions. I know she embarrassed him several times. I still maintain a friendly relationship with the lad, as does one of the ASMs. I like him; I've always liked him, and he knows it. I regret that things have gotten progressively uglier, and here we stand at an impasse with no-one willing to admit where they might be wrong.

So teach me, by using the publications mentioned previously, where I was wrong. Use a PM or this forum. I need proof that no-one can refute, since I sit on a committee where I am the most novice member and several have decades of experience with scouting, along with shirts full of knots and the confidence that they're in the right. I want this thing to end, but in such a way that this will never occur again!

BTW, I'll not take you up on your bet. Time will tell. However, I wouldn't be surprised if in a decade or so his family has a new Cub.

Just thought I'd bump this up. I'd really like those references, since I've re-read the documents mentioned and still don't see what I guess I should.

To update:

The scout has received the 2 additional palms National directed us to award him. Not sure exactly who sent them, or who paid for them, since troop did not do either. His mother is still angry and upset, still calling Council Advancement, because we did not hold a COH to give these to him. Frankly, we were unaware that they'd been sent until Council informed us of the complaint yesterday. This young man quit the troop when he turned 18 six months ago, refusing an adult position in the troop. He also apologized for his parents' behavior. I regret his leaving. We never had any hard feelings toward him during all of this.

It was the opinion of both unit and District that the mother deliberately skewed the facts in her letter to National, leaving out pertinent data. National never did ask for our input (Council, District, Unit)to my knowledge. She also did not properly follow instructions National issued, such as the consecutive SMCs and then BORs. After being reviewed by District, and in light of the lad's already receiving the palms, troop committee decided to chalk all this up to a learning experience, and to let matters drop. There are no plans for a COH as far as I know, although I am not the Advancement chair.

I just gotta bite on this one ---

If there is no belief in a god of some sort, there is no religion. There is only opinion. Religion is the "ritual observance of faith" (credit Webster's dictionary). The storage company doesn't ask about differences of opinion.

acco40, I'd say you're clear to go.

Funny thing -- down here it's the well-off scouts that DO fundraise. The less fortunate keep relying on troop "camperships", which come with strings attached. Go figure.

As for motivating the boys, make sure they know what the fundraiser is for specifically. I'm sure you do this. I found it useful to itemize what the fundraisers are for: airfare, camp fees, troop activity at camp, etc. Try to establish a sense of teamwork - that all must pull their weight for everyone's benefit. Trying to curb parental check-writing by talking to the parents and the scouts may help, starting when the boys first join and continuing every year at least once. Explain why the boys' earning their own way will benefit each scout's character, not just their personal account. Build in some rewards occasionally, such as buying lunch out of the profits at a carwash for anyone who works the full time, or a recognition of participants during circle time, etc. "Attaboys" are super motivators, especially if conducted at COHs. Parents eat up recognition even more than kids do.

Realize that change takes time, but can be effected. When my son started scouts in 2000, I was a check-writer. Thus began our education. This year, my son has earned his way to summer camp, airfare and all, as well as spending money plus some left over to pay his dues. I may still write the checks for monthly camping trips which average $10, but I work the fees out of him at home. He has learned the benefit of earning his own way, and he's proud of doing so. I am also proud of him. He is one of the most self-sufficient kids I know.

Pardon me if I seem incredibly dense, I am still trying to assimilate all the details.

IF I accept that the SM is responsible for ititiating all the SMCs, several things must be true:

1) The troop's adult leaders have been in error for 30+ years (and counting - nothing's changed yet)

2) There would have been sufficient time between BORs to qualify this scout for the two additional palms, which was the main sticking point for the Board, assuming the SM pursued the scout on schedule every three months

3) We've been tremendously fortunate this never occurred before for any rank

National never did say where our fault lay, only directed us to do the SMCs and BORs.

As far as pursuing the scout (my words, I know), I believe several of us did just that as I stated in previous posts. The SM did not say to him, "OK, let's sit down and have a conference now while you're here." It seems to me you're saying that's exactly what he should have done. What he did do was remind this scout on several occasions that scout needed a conference and to see the SM at the scout's earliest convenience. As far as we could tell, July was convenient - and too late for obtaining another Palm before he aged-out.

We also have a business account, as I understand it. Neither do we pay deposit fees, or fees for other people's bounced checks. I can tell you that all checks are made out to the Troop.

As a parent, I would strongly resist being made to handle checks for my son's fundraising efforts privately. I don't want any legal liability attached to me should financial matters not go right for some reason.

I agree with FOG - something's fishy. What's behind her behavior? (high-strung, defensive, paranoid, tantrum) What's the real root of her request? There's something more than meets the eye here.

Bob White --

I hesitate to say that we've had another misunderstanding. I never meant to imply that the SMCs were the responsibility of the SM to initiate. I'm not sure I agree with that, yet. I was trying to point out that our SM is willing to have a conference with a scout wherever or whenever, should the regularly scheduled day be inconvenient. This is something our Scout of 6+ years of membership knew AND took advantage of occassionally. This is the main reason why I was surprised by his mother's reaction: "What?! MY SON'S supposed to arrange the SM conference?!" (As if she didn't know...)

SM does initiate conferences occassionally, just not always. Usually this is for disciplinary purposes, or if a scout is troubled, or to find out why a scout is not advancing, and sometimes because something wonderful has happened in a scout's life.

There is so much I'd like to say, other doubts I'd like to express, but am gagged for the while. Maybe these will become unimportant over time?

I am a by-the-book sort of person. I'll gladly correct any error or misconception on my part. I don't wear my "trained" patch just to show I am a marathon sitter! This is why I am still eagerly waiting for your "scripture references".

Sorry I've been away so long. To answer Bob White's question about citing the source of my/our concept that the Scout initiates the SM conference - I was just going to answer for myself, but decided to check where the others got their (same) bright idea. I was told this was the correct procedure at a Council training session for Troop Committees. I recall because it hasn't been that long ago, and because it was a direct answer to a direct question. I suspect that the rest of us who were trained locally were told the same. The people I asked were ones I knew were trained out of Council, even out of state. They all said that's where they learned of it. If this is in error, it is a national error and not just a poorly informed Council/District/Unit. One reason why I am interested in a written documentation of your reasons. I believe printed words carry more weight than spoken whenever there are disputes.

Also, I stated in two previous posts that the boy is not responsible for arranging a BOR, but the SM is. I'd to make that very clear. I hate misunderstandings - well, I'm hating them a whole lot more in recent months!

We do try to make things easier on the boys by having regularly-scheduled days for SM conferences and BORs, but they are by no means exclusive to just those days. I know the SM has had conferences at campouts, on the way to Round Table, at his home, the boy's home, etc. Kids talk, and so do their parents. He's a super Scoutmaster, in my opinion, and tries his best. The committee has also held BORs on other days and at other places. Most recently, an Eagle BOR was held on Scout Sunday after worship. (Due to the ubiquitous "scheduling problems".) They've also taken place at campouts. This is not unusual for us, and the boys know it.

Twocubdad --

As far as I can say, District and Council are unhappy with National. I can say no more, because the issue is not resolved between them yet. There were no grounds cited for approving the appeal, nor were there specific instructions for the advancement committee other than this:

Hold a SM conference on one day and the BOR on the following day, for each Palm.

To me, it sounds as if National wants us to give the boy the Palms - but they didn't exactly say so. Advancement referred the matter to a less-biased District Advancement chair.

This issue is not over. There's more I'd like to say, but don't dare until it is finally resolved one way or another.

My purpose now is to learn where I may have been wrong, to be sure that another episode like this is averted, as best as I can. As I said, we all sincerely thought our interpretation of the Eagle Palm requirement for Gold and up was correct - three months must elapse after the last Palm was AWARDED (ie - BOR day) before a boy is eligible for the next.

I await all y'all's knowledge. It is, after all, why I haunt this site. Thank you.

Our Scoutmaster's huge, clunky briefcase exploded one meeting night. Rather than get a new one, he used 2 bungee cords to keep it together. The troop finally took pity on him, and he now sports a medium-sized bright red pilot case. We figured with all his stuff he must be about to throw his back out!

I haven't actually finished snooping through all his "sacred stuff" (), but it looks like he has pretty much what y'all have. He also carts a milk-crate full of files and forms, plus occassionally the many-drawered gadget box full of badges, stars and stuff. (The last mainly lives with the Advancement Chair.)

FOG --

If you will refer to my previous post, you will realize the word I used concerning chaperonage was "sufficient" (as in enough), not "proper". It would be a wide-open opportunity for lawsuits if our Scouter were alone with a troop full of pubescent females.

As for proper chaperonage of female BSA Scouters, to which group I belong, let me say that I don't need a chaperone, so I don't insist on one. However, I wouldn't ever be alone with any boy other than my own son wherever we might be. It's against the two-deep leadership requirement.

Our BSA troop has an informal partnership with a Girl Scout troop that's about two hours away from us. We join forces for a couple of campouts each year. We also have a very active Scouter in our troop who also enjoys working with a local Girl Scout troop. I see nothing wrong with his working with the girls, as long as there is sufficient chaperonage - which there always is. I have heard some comments wondering why he does this since he has no daughter in scouts any more. However, they all seem to benefit from the set-up, and are having a lot of fun.

I knew I'd get it for mentioning Krispy Kreme! Actually, our troop didn't do the doughnut sale because while it is a good fund-raiser (even within BSA parameters), our nearest supplier is over an hour away. That would require one of us getting up mighty early to be there by 6 am.

None of our other endeavors (outside of Popcorn) included brand-name products.

Our troop shirts do have a tiny BSA emblem, with a large troop logo on the back. Whenever anyone asks what we are fundraising for, we tell them it's for Scout summer camp, Eagle project, whatever. I'll need to re-read the rules to be sure we haven't screwed up.

I think, Heacox, the question is no longer can you all fundraise - yes, you can, as long as you get your Council's blessing. Read the rules carefully. I know I will be even more alert about this.

Another suggestion - have you considered asking others to sponsor you, like your CO or extended family and friends? (BW - I'm cringing here, since I'm saying this without any rules in front of me to check.) My son let it be known to family and close friends last Christmas that the trip to Oregon would be beyond our usual means, and that he would appreciate cash for gifts to help him be able to go.

Our troop has been doing a huge amount of fund-raising this year for our summer camp-trip to Oregon. Not Jamboree, but a similar situation. Our Council advised us that fundraising by our unit was acceptable and encouraged, but that we could not wear our "Class A" uniform to any but the Popcorn sales. So we fundraise in troop t-shirts.

Let's assume you get the "go-ahead" --

As to what to do for fundraising, I expect you'll get as many ideas here and where you live as there are people to offer them. The main this I, as Fundraising Chair for our troop, would suggest you do is to make the community pay up rather than the scouts' families. There are many ways to do this: car washes, dog washes, pet beauty contests, yard sales, cook-offs, booths at community festivals, sales of candy bars/flowers/wreaths/Christmas trees, drawings, golf tourneys, etc. Krispy Kreme doughnuts has a good fundraiser. One of our local grocery stores has a special-coupon program that will donate .1% of every coupon-bearer's total bill to whatever organization is identified on the coupon. A local flower shop offers a small bouquet each month for a year. The cards sell for $20 and the return is 50%. Go for high percentage return on any investment. Avoid any fundraiser that offers a return of less than 50% of amount raised - you'll likely lose money or the effort is much greater than the satisfaction of earning any funds.

Keep a record of what works, what could be improved, and what failed to succeed. Your unit fundraiser will appreciate the info.

I agree with Ed. Your son needs to do the new requirements since he began the work after the badge revision.

Therefore, as a point of clarification, if a boy has already started a MB and then the badge undergoes revision - the former requirements are still in effect. This is the way I interpret MB requirements for which I am counselor.

I appreciate your responses, thank you!

The letter from National said that an extension was granted until May so that the SM conferences and BORs could be conducted. Not quite mandating that the 2 Palms be granted, but close enough in my opinion.

Due to the mother's verbal abuse unilaterally alienating all adult leaders in our troop (included a District Advancement co-chair), our Advancement chair referred the matter to the other District co-chair. There was no way this Scout was going to get a fair BOR anymore - sad, I know, and I admit my own human failing here. It is now out of our hands, and I am relieved.

I still don't really understand how we have been at fault, though. Were SM, Advancement, Dist. Advancement, and MC's supposed to lead this lad by the hand to a Conference? The subsequent BOR is arranged by the SM. Scout was certainly reminded often enough to have met all the requirements without all this turmoil.

There was never any hint that he'd need us to work outside our established practices - something we've always done whenever it's been needed.

This has been a learning experience for us here. We truly did not believe we made the wrong decision. All of our Troop Committee has been trained, Adv. up to Wood Badge, with the exclusion of the CC. SM has Wood Badge, all the SA's have been trained. We're kind of proud of this. Obviously this must never have been specifically addressed during any of the training sessions in the past 20 years or so. The requirements were interpreted identically by all concerned (again, excluding the CC). I hope this is remedied by next fall's training.

BTW, Bob White, could you quote me chapter and verse in the Committee Guidebook and AP&P, please? I've read them several times cover to cover and most apparently missed this in both books. I'd like to read where I erred, and learn better in case there's ever a next time.

To answer Bob White's questions:

1. There were nearly a full 12 months between the Eagle Board and his 18th birthday, during which scout served as a JASM.

2. Attendance was good, except for about 4 months during soccer season. Those were sporadic.

3. Scout was expected to request the SM conferences. This is true for all scouts at all levels in our troop, and he was reminded to do so on more than 3 occasions (3 by me - SM, Adv. and the SA who oversees our Eagle candidates also claim they all reminded him as well).

4. SM notifies the Board of upcoming reviews. This isn't really a biggie - all SM conferences are held on the 1st Monday of each month, with the BOR on the 2nd Monday - so Advancement knows by end of meeting that 1st Monday. In this case, it followed the plan exactly.

My final question was whiny, I do apologize. Obviously, there will be only one more circuit to go through.

Since I assist in keeping troop advancement records, and am trained, I am aware that the purpose of the Palms is to recognize/reward Eagles who remain active in Scouting. It is not another rank advancement, Eagle is the highest rank for Boy Scouts. The young man's mother seems to regard Palms as being higher and better than Eagle, and no-one has been able to convince her otherwise. This puzzles me, I admit.

The main sticking point is the first requirement for the Gold Palm. There were not a full 3 months after the Bronze Palm was awarded before he turned 18.

As you can tell by checking the time of submittal, the Committee meeting is over and it has been enlightening. If it would not inconvenience y'all overly, I'd still like your take on this before I share what happened tonight.

Thank you for all your input, past and future.

We've used Nantahala both with our troop and with our family. They're a real good outfit. I expecially liked the video they show before anyone launches, showing technique and what to do if you happen to fall in.

Anyone out there use a different outfitter?

We've been having a touchy problem in our troop this past year. For the first time, we had an Eagle scout stay in the troop long enough to be eligible for palms. The problem is not so much with the scout as with his mother.

Within 3 months of his Eagle BOR, this scout was reminded he'd need a SM conference and BOR to be able to acquire any palms. (He was also reminded at the Eagle BOR, but sometimes these details get forgotten in all the excitement.) He was subsequently reminded on and off throughout the following months by several committee members, myself included, as well as the SM and SAs. Last July he participated in a BOR for a palm with less than 3 months before his 18th birthday. He was informed that insufficient time existed for him to meet the 3-month participation requirement for the next palm. He seemed accepting, thanked us and left. Now, he did have enough merit badges earned for at least 2 more palms, as well as a nearly year's worth of excellent leadership and a fine scout spirit since becoming Eagle. The Board would have loved to give him all the palms he qualified for, but he just didn't pursue them in a timely fashion.

Mama had a FIT when she found out there would be only one Palm. She, personally and through her son, harassed the SM and Advancement chair until a special BOR was convened to review the situation. The Board met with Scout, but the decision was the same - not enough participation time in since the previous Palm BOR whether you counted weeks or days. She appealed our decision to Council, and Council upheld us. She appealed to National. National granted Scout an extension (?), at least that's what I've been told. Tomorrow is the committee meeting, and I'll actually be able to read the letter for myself.

Beside the initial problem of insufficient participation time, the Board balked at the hint of dishonesty approving another Palm would have involved. Now I hear she insists her son get both Palms that he's "earned". Committee members spoke about the message such fudging would send the others scouts in the troop. Advancement Chair has done her level best to explain the whys and wherefores to her, but this young man's mother doesn't seem to understand and has also managed to alienate most every adult working with the troop since last July. I really don't see how such a letter from National will persuade the Board to approve another Palm (let alone both!) as things currently stand. I wonder how many times we'll have to jump through the same hoops before this gets resolved?

shemgren -

Where do you get those small, age-level pins to attach to the knots? There is no mention of them on any order forms from the parent org. or scouts that I've been able to find. My son has completed his second religious award, and we'd very much like to get them.

When my son started Scouts several years ago, the troop was going through its "Aussie" phase. All the patrols were names after critters found in Australia. Not surprisingly, the first-year boys were Joeys. Most all of the patrols have since changed their names, but one does remain - the Frill-necked Lizards who fondly call themselves the Frilly-Lizzies.

Blaster --

The troop is going to Camp Meriweather (sp?), southwest of Portland. Have you been there? We're coming from the west coast of central Florida.

rlc

My brothers and I had an advantage when we were in scouting. My father was an officer in the Signal Corps (Army). He taught us lots of interesting things like semaphore, Morse code, etc. When I was a Webelos den leader in the latter part of the 90's, I taught semaphore to both of our Webelos dens. They gave a welcome one Pack Night using flags we had made. "Lost skills" are often fun for boys to do, even if they are no longer required.

I haven't had much luck convincing the boys to get payment in advance, although this is what I promote every year. Any suggestions on how to get them to do this would be appreciated.

Anyway, Gulf Ridge Council only requires their cut, and we all get to keep our commissions. It does save council some bank fees if they don't have to cut a check for every troop and pack to get their commission.

Packsaddle - sorry it took a while to get back to Forum. I apologize for being unclear - Oregon is this summer's trip. We are using the services of a travel agent friend and will be flying both ways and renting vehicles to finish the trip to camp. My committee's particular job in this venture is fundraising. As you can guess, popcorn won't cover all of it. Several boys have worked hard and earned their airfare and camp fees - I am totally impressed, especially since we're still raising money. We are now setting up a special campership fund for those who are struggling financially, and are urging any and all to contribute to that (especially those who've finished paying their own way!) We are currently waiting to hear from the Oregon camp about any special items the boys may need to bring. Our troop committee has relied on the Summer Camp chair and the Fundraising chair to help the boys implement their plans - and yes, we both really do have committees. (We are blessed with a CC whose first question on any new venture is, "How can we make it happen?") Right now, everything seems to be progressing along nicely. I'll be happy to give you a report on how well it actually worked in July, if you'd like.

As to Costa Rica, well, we never even thought of there. How much would that cost? Passports are about $45. Hmmm...