Rip Van Scouter

ROFL!

I am glad you have a good sense of humor FScouter, although some might not have seen that you had your tongue firmly planted in your cheek when you posted that! You might just start another flame war with people who thought you were making a serious suggestion instead of being sarcastic.

Of course the ills in Backpacker's council must go way beyond the argument over wearing too many knots. I think it is the knotheads themselves who are the issue. Focusing on the knots is just inciting to riot.

I am sorry to see my simple inquiry degenerate into such a ludicrous, and illogically-based argument. I think Backpacker's complaints should be taken up in another forum other than Uniforms. I never intended this thread to be a discussion of whether or knot.....

Sorry I couldn't help that one!

I think I will go cause trouble on another forum and ask about teaching Scouts close-order drill and marching! (sans weapons, of course!)

I am still waiting to hear which knots Backpacker thinks can be earned by simply attending an activitiy? Yes, many of the knots are for awards that are fairly exclusive. In our district, only 7 scouters are being recognized this year with the District Award of Merit, and this out of hundreds who attend the Roundtable every month, and even more who don't. And this was a big year. Other years have seen only 3-6 win the award.

Heroism awards are even rarer, as are the Council Silver Beaver awards and several national awards.

Perhaps Backpacker was exagerating a LITTLE! 30 knots (his low number) worn 3 across would mean 10 rows of knots above the pocket!

However, let's say the Scouter DID earn all 36 awards. It would certainly have taken him a long time to do so. Most of that time would probably have been spent working closely with the boys, or behind the scenes keeping the program going. Why else would their fellow scouters have heaped so many awards on them? Why shouldn't they be recognized within the Scouting ranks for their achievements? They are sure to get darn little recognition elsewhere for all their hard work!

It is very sad if they are divorced because "their wives didn't understand" the time they wanted to devote to the scouting program. For many people, serving Scouting IS a kind of calling, not unlike the ministry, the military, teaching, police and firefighting, forestry, nursing and medical practice, or non-scouting volunteer work (Red Cross, Salvation Army, Peace Corps, Weather spotters, Amateur Radio Emergency Service, shelter workers, etc.), where one puts service to others above one's own personal needs. Except for the ministry, where divorce rates may be low for religious reasons, you will probably find similarly high divorce rates among military and medical men and women, whose spouses "don't understand them".

Maybe Backpacker is just jealous of these old codgers. He should check out all the requirements of the various knots before he condemns those who earned them for wearing all of them. Yes, maybe their contributions to scouting have diminished at this point, and they may be "resting on their laurels", but let's think about how they got those "laurels" to begin with. It certainly wasn't by just "attending another activity". Those awards are called "temporary patches", and only one may be worn on the uniform at a time anyway. I only wear one knot, which is for earning the Arrow of Light as a Cub Scout. I am proud of it, but will be prouder still if I can earn other knots by serving in positions in my boys' pack and hopefully later in their Scout troop when they become Boy Scouts. If I am LUCKY enough to go on to stay involved in Scouting (as a Commissioner, Council staff, whatever) and HAPPEN to be awarded some other recognition by my peers, I will be very proud to wear those knots as well.

How can the wearers of all these knots be totally self-serving, as Backpacker suggests, when what most of the knots REPRESENT is essentially SERVICE to our youth?

Backpacker said:

"I don't know how many times I have heard some old time scouter say ,'I think I will attend that event to get another knot for my uniform.' "

I would really like to know which knots he is talking about. Most of the ones I have seen are either for a combination of training and service, top acheivements as a youth (Eagle, Arrow-of-Light, Religious award), or recognition for acts of bravery or meritorious and continious service over and above the call.

Tell me, which official BSA knots can one earn by simply attending an event? Training knots (position specific) require not only training, but also tenure in the position (serving Scouts), as well as completion of specific tasks in many cases. Now, you may have heard a scouter say, "I need to attend that event to complete my knot" since particpation is required in Roundtables or PowWows as well as the other requirements.

I believe the knots are a good recognition program. But I do agree that any Scouter in it just for knots should look elsewhere for their "fun".

Twocubdad wrote:

"I know of no official restriction on wearing any official patch, as long as it is worn properly -- which usually means as a temporary patch."

Does that mean only to wear it on the right pocket, or that it must be suspended from the right pocket button, either by its own tab or in a holder, without being sewn on the pocket. Can a temporary patch be sewn on, if you wish to wear only that patch, and not change patches frequently?

What about getting duplicate arrowhead patches to sew on extra shirts or on the jac-shirt? Tooth-of-Time Traders, which sells Philmont patches, does NOT sell the Arrowhead patch.

Now I know that the insignia guide is very clear on Adult wear of some patches/badges/insignia earned as a youth. For example, Scouters may wear the appropriate square knot patch for Eagle rank, Arrow of Light, and religious awards earned as a youth. Of course, Scouters do not wear youth rank awards, but what about other accomplishments from their youth Scouting days?

Specifically, is it appropriate to wear patches from Philmont, or other High Adventure base which you "earned" as a youth, but have not (yet) experienced as an adult Scouter? For example, having been to Philmont as a Boy Scout, but not as a Scout leader, is it appropriate now to wear the Philmont bull on official jackets (especially the Jac-shirt) as described in the insignia guide ("for Scouts and Scouters")? What about the Philmont Arrowhead patch or the round Philmont bull patch? I remember buying the Bull patches in the souvenir shop, but the Arrowhead patch was presented in a special campfire ceremony at the end of the trail. We also did a conservation project to earn the 50-miler Award, but I know that is for equipment display only.

If I wanted to wear a BSA patch vest or similar garment (not official uniform of course for Blue and Gold, Court of Honor, other ceremonies, etc.) for meetings, roundtable, activities, etc. would it be appropriate to wear my old Council Camporee, Scout Reservation Reforestation projects, Council hiking trail, Summer Camp, Junior Leader Training Camp, etc. patches? Or would that be looked on with disdain and thought of as inappropriate by other Leaders? Should I only wear patches for activities I have been to as an adult Scouter?

I am proud of many of these accomplishments and do not think of it as bragging, but as a way to connect with the boys. Incidentally, my two Cub Scout sons thought my old Boy Scout patch vest was very "cool", especially with all my old Boy Scout rank patches and position patches (Patrol Leader, Instructor, Asst. Sr. Patrol Leader) as well as the ones named above.

Your confusion is understandable. See my posting under Uniforms: "Expedition Hat".

The Uniform inspeciton sheet for Boy Scouts shows only the Campaign Hat and visored (B-Ball style) cap and says:

"Headgear. Two styles: (1) visored cap; or (2)

campaign hat. All troop members must wear

one of the headgear chosen by vote of the

troop/team.Varsity Scouts wear only the blaze

and brown visored cap."

And the Leaders uniform inspection sheet is only a little more specific:

"Headgear. Boy Scout leaders wear the olive

and red visor cap, or campaign hat. Cub Scout

leaders wear the blue and gold visor cap.

Webelos leaders wear the blue Webelos visor

cap. Varsity Scout leaders wear the blaze visor

cap."

The "Insiginia Guide 2002-2004" goes into more detail but may be even more confusing:

"HEADGEAR REGULATIONS - Official headgear may be worn while the unit or individual is participating in an indoor formal ceremony or

service duty, except in religious institutions where custom

forbids. Typical indoor activities of this type are flag

ceremonies, inspections, orderly duty, or ushering service.

In any informal indoor activity where no official ceremony

is involved, the headgear is removed as when in street

clothes. The Scouter dress uniform is always worn without

headgear. Pins may be worn on the jamboree hat but only while at

the jamboree, and Webelos activity badges may be worn on

the Webelos cap (see page 10). As part of the First Class

Emphasis, the large standard metal pin, No. 00017, has

been reinstated as an option to the cloth First Class rank

badge. The large pin also may be worn only by boys on the

front of the campaign hat, No. 501, and the expedition hat,

No. 637. Adults may wear the adult universal hat pin, No.

50150, on the campaign hat and the expedition hat. No

other pins may be worn on official headgear of the BSA."

Ref: http://www.scoutingusa.org/uniforms.html

The above certainly implies that the campaign hat and expedition hat have equal standing as "official headgear of the BSA", since they use the same hat pins. However, the Scoutstuff.org website text for the Expedition hat says, "Approved as an activity hat for leaders and Scouts", while the Campaign hat text says nothing.

I think one of the Looney Tunes characters said it best, "Corn-fusin', ain't it?"

NWScouter wrote:

The parts of the field uniform are:

BSA Long-sleeve or Short-sleeve

BSA trouser (long) or shorts

BSA socks or knee socks

BSA twill or mesh cap or campaign hat (troop option)

BSA web belt and buckle

BSA troop neckerchief (troop option)

The parts of the activity uniform are these:

BSA t-shirt or activity shirt (designed by the troop or Scout camp shirt)

BSA shorts

BSA socks or knee socks

BSA belt and buckle

BSA cap, expedition hat, or campaign hat

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Can the expedition hat be worn with the official uniform shirt while attending "activities"? After all, it is listed under "Leaders: Uniforms" on the Scoutstuff.org website and the text says "Approved as an activity hat for leaders and Scouts."

However, if you look at those two lists above, the uniform shirt ("BSA Long-sleeve or Short-sleeve") is not part of the activity uniform and the expedition hat is not part of the "field uniform". Does this mean that the expedition hat is NOT authorized to wear with the official uniform shirt? Better tell all the Scouts and Scouters who are now sporting them WITH their field uniforms at "activities" like campouts, hikes, camporees, training, etc.

Such a shame that the first decent headgear the Supply Division has come up with in over 50 years (and I am even including the red beret) should be limited to wearing with a T-shirt! Seems to me that if you wanted to limit any kind of cap to wearing only with the activity uniform it would be the one that closely resembles a Baseball Cap! And why go through the pain of specifying specific metal hat pins for youth versus Scouters (First Class or Universal emblems) if it is only for the activity uniform? I would love to see a troop in formation at a camporee, all wearing the expedition hat WITH their official shirts, but, alas, I guess this is not meant to be!

I guess councils have a lot of latitude as to what they allow and do not allow on the uniform. In St. Louis, I was informed that in the GSLAC they do not allow the "Tiger Cubs BSA" strip to be worn under the right pocket of former Tigers, as shown on the national uniform inspection sheet. Yet, adult leaders are required to wear a district patch on their right sleeve below the flag and any den patch (if a Cub leader), but above where the "Quality Unit" patch would go.

I guess since there is no "Uniform Police" in the BSA and inspections are option (as indeed some uniform parts seem to be!) people can do just about whatever they want, which hardly seems "uniform"!

NWScouter wrote: Troop 100 of Mt. Vernon, Washington just has a C on its ball caps.

Hmmm...maybe they are just Reds fans!

Roman numerals might work for some, but my old troop would have had to shoulder CDXCVI while my current pack would have to wear CMDCCCIX!

Meanwhile, I found my old brag vest with the community strip sewn on. As I thought, no state strip. I am surprised how well those old patches held up. Of course, my Arrow of Light patch is a little the worse for wear, since it was always worn on all my scout shirts! My Star rank is a little worn also, since I held it the longest.

Yes, that makes sense. I found my old school district website and the history section was quite informative. Mason Ridge was one of the original elementary schools which consolidated to form a district in the 1950's. Before consolidation to form the Parkway School District and to build a high school, the Mason Ridge school district (included two other elementary schools)included an area of St. Louis County larger than the City of St. Louis itself! I guess if I want a complete display I need to find a MISSOURI strip to go underneath the community strip, right?

Thanks for the input. Those of you with further interest in this subject may want to refer to the thread with the same title on the UNIFORM forum, where I cross-posted the original posting.

Hmmm....

Well, the school is located in St. Louis County, which, at that time was still partly rural/agricultural, and just becoming suburbanized. The school may have been in an unincorporated part of the county, and the school, Mason Ridge, may have been named for the community. Heck, back then rural schools and communities were sometimes synonymous since the locals gathered only for church and school activities. Might bear some more research. I do not have the smaller state strip, but my 1967 Boy Scout handbook actually show the community strips you are talking about on the insignia placement guide, not a council strip.

Are these community strips collectable, or is its value merely sentimental?

I have a pewter color 1960's vintage neckerchief slide in the shape of a Mercury space capsule. The graphics on the slide include the mercury capsule with spacesuited Mercury astronaut standing behind both a Boy Scout (yellow enamel) and a Cub Scout (blue enamel). The boys are shoulder-to-shoulder and shown from waist up (as I remember). The astronaut is centered between and behind the boys.

Anyone know the background of this slide? It may have been from some event sponsored by McDonnell Aircraft, the prime contractor for the Mercury capsule program, here in St. Louis. McDonnell later merged with Douglas Aircraft (McDonnell-Douglas), and later merged into Boeing Corporation. The slide belonged to my older brother, but I acquired it when he did not continue in Cub Scouts.

Thanks!

When I was first in Cub Scouts in 1963 (Whew!) we had the old style red and white council patch (St. Louis Area Council). However, my older brother had been a Cub a few years earlier in the same pack. Instead of a council patch they had a curved shoulder strip with the name of our pack's chartering organization, a local public school. The strip was not a full semi-circle, but more of an arc, and it was white letters on red background, just like the numerals and the council patch which replaced it.

Were these common before the 1960's? Are they collectable? I still have it on my old Boy Scout patch vest, since our Troop was chartered by the same school with same unit number (my brother was only a Cub for a year or two so I got his uniform and his patches).

Thanks!

What would be really "cool" would be a BSA version of the old USAF MA-1 flight jacket, which is commonly available in many colors already at your local military surplus store. Dark blue would be suitable for Cubs and Sage Green (close to olive, since Olive is not available).

Since MA-1's are not official issue in the Air Force anymore (being replaced by a newer "nomex" flight jacket), why couldn't they be adopted by the Scouts? After all, the current red and blue windbreaker jackets are simply a version of the old nylon "coach's jacket", with the official patch or embroidered logo added on. Face it, the Scout uniform is a "military style" uniform, which is really part of its appeal to the kids, so why not make it "cool" instead of "dorky"? Plus, multiple MA-1 manufacturers means a contract bid could be highly competitive, give BSA the lowest possible price.

Unlike the current windbreaker jackets, the MA-1 is actually insulated, instead of just "lined". It is much more durable, for only a little higher price, yet nothing like the price of the jac-shirt, yet just as warm. It is much more practical, being reversible with a highly visible safety orange lining, pockets on both inside and outside, as well as a utility pocket on the sleeve which can hold pens/pencils in outside slots and small items inside a zippered pocket. Originally designed for crewmembers cigarette packs, it is nonetheless quite useful for scouting items such as a compass, small first aid kit or emergency "space" blanket, matches (for fire starting), sewing kit, etc.

It is also much more comfortable, following natural body contours in the sleeves. It is also short-waisted, preventing sitting on its tail, and allowing more freedom of movement. The knit collar is also more comfortable and cleaner looking than the floppy collar on the coach's jacket which is now official wear.

At least if the supply division does not want to adopt the actual MA-1, they could look to it and other military jackets as a model for a new-generation uniform jacket that would actually be worth what you would pay for it!

Another option would be an offical version of the popular "layered" jacket, having an outer "lined" nylon shell, with an integral, yet detachable fleece jacket liner, which zips into the shell, attaching to the sleeve ends with elastic loops over buttons. The fleece liner could even be made to resemble the wool "jac-shirt" for those styling "traditionalists". Sell them together or separately for those needing to save a little money or spread out their payments.

I think most would agree, we desperately need a new official uniform jacket, otherwise we are doomed to appear as a motley crew whenever any unit assembles outside in cold weather! I especially like the reversible idea, because then a uniform jacket with BSA insignia could pull double duty as civilian wear, making its purchase much more justifiable.

Are you listening Supply Division?

Hmmmm.....

"Its a jacket...technically not part of the uniform."

It may be "optional", but if it is has official BSA insignia (Universal emblem with the letters BSA), has insignia placement described in the official insignia guide, and is approved to wear with the field uniform (either for activity or BSA-sanctioned events, meetings, training, etc.) I would say it IS part of the uniform. I know my old Air Force First Sergeant would have had a fit if you told him that his optional poplin windbreaker with his rank pinned on was "not technically part of the uniform" because it was not shown on the "Class A" Service uniform inspection guide!

"I really can't think of anything that is olive green and royal blue"

I guess you mean "dark blue" (being an old USAF vet I have a hard time saying "navy blue", even though that is how the Scoutstuff.org website describes the jacket!). Well, guess what, the USAF is trying out a new Air Force only Camoflage pattern for their BDU uniform, and its colors include olive green and dark blue! Not only that, for years USAF airman and officers wore Olive Green fatigue uniforms with a dark blue belt, earning them the nickname "bluebelt" from Army soldiers they happened to serve or train with, particularly at US Army Parchute Training ("Jump School"). Not only that, the official USAF dark blue raincoat was authorized for wear with the "pickle suit" (olive green fatigues), since airmen were not issued olive green (now camo)ponchos like Army soldiers were, unless assigned to ground combat field units (security police, tactical weather observers, forward air controllers, etc.).

So, I am still in a quandary as to whether to wear the blue or red jacket. I understand that at one time the wool "jac-shirt" was also made in dark blue for Cubs and Cub leaders, but it did not catch on, so it was not economical to continue to produce and sell. Well, as the weather turns colder this winter, I will see how many Cub leaders wear red or blue jackets or red jac-shirts. What would be really "cool" would be an official version of the USAF MA-1 flight jacket, which is commonly available in many colors already at your local military surplus store. Dark blue would be suitable for Cubs and Sage Green (close to olive, since Olive is not available). Since MA-1's are not official issue in the Air Force anymore (being replaced by a newer "nomex" flight jacket), why couldn't they be adopted by the Scouts? After all, the current red and blue windbreaker jackets are simply a version of the old nylon "coach's jacket", with the official patch or embroidered logo added on. Face it, the Scout uniform is a "military style" uniform, which is really part of its appeal to the kids, so why not make it "cool" instead of "dorky"? Hmmmm. Maybe I will send a letter to the Supply Division with the suggestion!

I posted this under UNIFORMS but got no response. Maybe some Cub leader will see this here and have an answer for me!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, in the Scoutstuff catalog both the red "Boy Scout" windbreaker and the blue "Cub Scout" windbreaker appear in the LEADERS section. Obviously, a female leader wearing the yellow/blue uniform would wear the blue jacket. But, if you are a male cub leader or a female cub leader wearing the "khakitan" uniform, would you wear the corresponding red jacket with the BSA emblem or the blue jacket with the wolf head embroidered logo?

The green and red socks are to be worn by leaders with the khakitan uniform, not the Cub Scout blue and yellow. Cub leaders also wear the green "Boy Scout" web belt and buckle, and with the demise of the generic Cub Scout b-ball cap, Cub leaders are left only with the green and red "Boy Scout" b-ball cap as "official" headgear, so does it follow that the red jacket should be worn with the khakitan uniform? Or should Cub leaders attempt to identify as much as possible with the Cub program by wearing the blue jacket? Unfortunately for me, the blue jacket only goes up to size 3X and I need a 4X or 5X.

Thanks for any help.

Backpacker,

I have to agree with you. If the BSA National Stores and Supply Division were run like a real business, lots of people would be fired! I had to get custom made uniforms because I am a large guy (size 5x) and nothing is stocked in my size (except the jac-shirt of all things!). However the 6 weeks I was quoted doubled to three months. First, they lost my measurements and I had to come in again to be measured. Then the long pants came in, but two pair instead of the one pair I ordered, and no shorts! When the rest of the order came in the shirts fit fine (I ordered 100% cotton, noticing they appeared to be made better than the poly-cotton for only a little more $$$) but the "made-to-measure" shorts gave me a wedgie! (We sent them back) My other complaint was that "made-to-measure" is a joke, since they DID have all my measurements, inseam AND outseam, rise, etc., yet the long pants were NOT hemmed! (That's just the way it is, I was told) So now I have to shell out extra for a tailor to hem them! Quality of the long trousers was pretty good, but it ought to be, since I paid dearly for the wool version, figuring I would only wear long pants in the winter time to pack meetings, roundtable, and B&G dinner, etc. They actually look very nice. I am SO glad they gave me a FREE U.S. Flag patch. Too bad they did not sew it on straight!

"Your kids don't grow out of civilian pants, only Scout pants? Durability of Scout pants must be pretty good then." I don't think durability is the issue. Cost effectiveness is. If $10 pants last for one year and they grow out of them after that time, it might still be cost effective, but $25 pants cannot be used for 2.5 years, because they grow out. Therefore the "official" uniform pants are not as cost effective.

"Seems like a minor detail considering the extra life one can get out of the pants." Yes, I agree. My Mom did that (leave extra material inside above the hem to let out later) with all our Scout pants and I do not remember having any problems.

"Do you mean an official policy to abandon the uniform? You're not fooling me, blue pants is not a uniform." No, not abandoning the uniform, just increasing the options. As someone pointed out, this is NOT the military. Even in the military, some compromises are made to allow civilian clothing to be part of the uniform. As a medic on USAF AirEvac flights, my uniform included a civilian "hospital white" shirt instead of the usual light blue. A better example is the uniforms worn in some restaurants, where an official logo shirt is provided, but pants are specificed as simply "long black slacks". Already there is the option of long or short pants. Webelos may be blue or tan, even within the same Den!

"How would the pack look if all the boys wore the uniform?" There is no doubt the pack would look great if all were in full uniform, in an ideal world. However, we must deal with the real world, and in the real world, unfortunately, the pants seem to be problematic for many parents and leaders.

"Whatever the standard is, there will be those that dont like it. And we already have a standard." Yes, but standards can, and do, change, despite the resistance of those who cling to the old standard, because "that's the way it was, and we LIKED IT!"

"I guess Id have to say that those that dont like the uniform dont have to wear it (and wont anyway). Wear your street clothes with pride. But lets not dumb down the program to assuage those that are feeling guilty about rebelling."

Wow, that was a mouthful! "Wear your street clothes with pride" indeed! Sarcasm does not really lead to intelligent discussion. Is it really "dumbing down" the program to make a minor change in uniforming? I thought "the program" was about values and experiences not always obtained in the normal school or home "program". I thought "the program" was about building unity in the den, pack, district, etc., not divisiveness. I don't think people feel guilty about "rebelling" by not buying the uniform pants. It just is not important to them. How did we get this way? I do not know. I was out of Scouting for many years. We all wore uniform pants when I was a kid, and we LIKED IT! But times change. We live in a more casual society. As long as changes do not compromise the core of the BSA program, then change can be good.

I am all for complete uniforming, but at this point I don't believe that training, education, leadership, etc., will make the problem go away. Lacking any move by the BSA to alleviate the problem (lower costs, convertible pants, optional wear, etc.) all we can do is work on getting a uniform closet/exchange going and, personally, to lead by example, encouraging others to do the same. I would hate to see anything happen like was described by others when their unit made complete uniforming a requirement. Uniforming should bring the members together, not divide them!

You all have made good points. However, judging in part by my wife's own reaction, I have to agree with Kristi and "ScoutMomAng" that cost is an overriding issue for many.

When the short-sleeve shirt cost $22 (almost $26 for long-sleeve), a hat (which may be optional but all the kids want them) is $11.50 (AND MUST CHANGE EVERY YEAR NOW! That I DON'T get at all!), the belt is either over $6 or over $8, depending on size, insignia adds up to around $10 or so, socks are another $4.40 (which many do not get, but some do, and the inspection sheet says they ARE required, like the hat), $7 for neckerchief and slide, you are looking at a bill of over $60, before you add the $25 shorts and/or the $30 long pants, even more for "husky" sizes. And let's face it, kids DO NOT like wearing long pants in the warmer months, but must wear them in the winter, making it practically mandatory to get both, to be properly uniformed.

No wonder parents rebel at the cost of buying proper uniform bottoms, especially for new Wolves or even now for Tigers , who may or may not stay with the program. Today at Wal-mart I bought a pair of nicely made and good-looking navy blue utility (multi-pocketed) trousers for my Tiger (his older brother, a Bear, got a pair last week and loves them, but they were out of the smaller size then) at a cost of less than $10, and, get this, they have zip off legs, so they can be worn as shorts OR long pants! Why doesn't BSA come out with something like that!

I have heard the argument that other youth programs require expensive uniforms and equipment, but why make it that much harder for a parent to making the choice for Scouting, especially when there are so many other costs and time conflicts anyway? My boys also participate in a Youth soccer league where they recieve their shirts, shorts, and socks in team colors as part of the fee. Even with annual purchase of new soccer shoes to accomodate growing feet, the costs are about half of what annual dues and uniforming adds up to for Cubs, not to mention additional fees for just about every activity!

Why can't BSA make an official policy to allow reasonable alternatives, such as blue jeans and navy blue pants and shorts for Cubs? Boy Scout uniforming could remain as is, since it is not an entry-level program like Cubs. As long as the color was kept to a monocolor (no trim in other colors) dark or navy blue, and belt loops were required (for the uniform belt), I believe overall appearance of the pack would, in fact, improve.

OK, in the Scoutstuff catalog both the red "Boy Scout" windbreaker and the blue "Cub Scout" windbreaker appear in the LEADERS section. Obviously, a female leader wearing the yellow/blue uniform would wear the blue jacket. But, if you are a male cub leader or a female cub leader wearing the "khakitan" uniform, would you wear the corresponding red jacket with the BSA emblem or the blue jacket with the wolf head embroidered logo?

The green and red socks are to be worn by leaders with the khakitan uniform, not the Cub Scout blue and yellow. Cub leaders also wear the green "Boy Scout" web belt and buckle, and with the demise of the generic Cub Scout b-ball cap, Cub leaders are left only with the green and red "Boy Scout" b-ball cap as "official" headgear, so does it follow that the red jacket should be worn with the khakitan uniform? Or should Cub leaders attempt to identify as much as possible with the Cub program by wearing the blue jacket? Unfortunately for me, the blue jacket only goes up to size 3X and I need a 4X or 5X.

My pet peeve is this unwritten policy that seems to pervade councils, districts and packs. That is that it is OK to wear just about any other kind of pants with the uniform shirt in Cub Scouts. BSA uniforming policy says that only "official" long pants and shorts should be worn with the "field uniform", which includes the official uniform shirt, blue for Cubs, tan for leaders (optional for Webelos). Activity shirts, like polos and T-shirts are of course a totally different matter.

However, when I go to our Pack meeting, and even the Blue and Gold dinner, I see such a hodgepodge of pants, from wind pants and sweats to blue jeans, with only a vague attempt to be blue, let alone matching "navy blue" in color. Even the other leaders usually wear blue jeans, khakis, or some other casual pants instead of the "official" green pants or shorts.

Even at our District Roundtable, I would say that about 95% of Cub Leaders in attendance wore blue jeans. After the meeting I approached the District leader (I am not sure of his position) who had conducted the Cubmaster/Committee idea/training session about this, to try to find out just what the district/council policy was. All he would says was that, yes, officially, the uniform pants are required, but even in his home pack he often wears jeans with his tan shirt. (At the time he WAS wearing official green pants)

Well, of course, if the LEADERS don't wear official uniforms, how can we expect the boys to do so? If wearing official pants is such a burden that no one (hardly) does it, why doesn't the BSA just go ahead and make an official policy change that at least defines acceptable alternative for boys pants (i.e. dark, not faded or "washed", blue jeans or true monocolor "navy blue" dress or causual pants with belt loops). This would give more of a true "uniform" appearance than the current situation. Similarly, leaders could wear a suitable "olive green" pants. Certainly, dockers-type khaki-style pants in the correct shades are widely available and reasonably priced as compared to the "official" pants.

Don't get me wrong, I have purchased, and intend to wear the "official" green pants, both long and short. But, I can see a need to at least formalize and regulate what seems to be the current status quo in Cub Scout boy and leader uniforming. Or is the BSA too dependent on the profits from uniform pants and shorts that are quicly outgrown to even broker some kind of compromise?

In the meantime, I will be trying to organize a "uniform closet" for our pack to at least encourage correct uniforming by making uniform parts available for free to those who would not otherwise purchase them for their boys. The sad thing is that even my own wife objected to buying long pants for our two boys as a "waste of money" since they would quickly outgrow them and "no one else" wore them anyway! (I did buy them official shorts, which they love, but winter time requires something warmer!)

I am cross-posting this to the "Cub Scouts" forum.

My pet peeve is this unwritten policy that seems to pervade councils, districts and packs. That is that it is OK to wear just about any other kind of pants with the uniform shirt in Cub Scouts. BSA uniforming policy says that only "official" long pants and shorts should be worn with the "field uniform", which includes the official uniform shirt, blue for Cubs, tan for leaders (optional for Webelos). Activity shirts, like polos and T-shirts are of course a totally different matter.

However, when I go to our Pack meeting, and even the Blue and Gold dinner, I see such a hodgepodge of pants, from wind pants and sweats to blue jeans, with only a vague attempt to be blue, let alone matching "navy blue" in color. Even the other leaders usually wear blue jeans, khakis, or some other casual pants instead of the "official" green pants or shorts.

Even at our District Roundtable, I would say that about 95% of Cub Leaders in attendance wore blue jeans. After the meeting I approached the District leader (I am not sure of his position) who had conducted the Cubmaster/Committee idea/training session about this, to try to find out just what the district/council policy was. All he would says was that, yes, officially, the uniform pants are required, but even in his home pack he often wears jeans with his tan shirt. (At the time he WAS wearing official green pants)

Well, of course, if the LEADERS don't wear official uniforms, how can we expect the boys to do so? If wearing official pants is such a burden that no one (hardly) does it, why doesn't the BSA just go ahead and make an official policy change that at least defines acceptable alternative for boys pants (i.e. dark, not faded or "washed", blue jeans or true monocolor "navy blue" dress or causual pants with belt loops). This would give more of a true "uniform" appearance than the current situation. Similarly, leaders could wear a suitable "olive green" pants. Certainly, dockers-type khaki-style pants in the correct shades are widely available and reasonably priced as compared to the "official" pants.

Don't get me wrong, I have purchased, and intend to wear the "official" green pants, both long and short. But, I can see a need to at least formalize and regulate what seems to be the current status quo in Cub Scout boy and leader uniforming. Or is the BSA too dependent on the profits from uniform pants and shorts that are quicly outgrown to even broker some kind of compromise?

In the meantime, I will be trying to organize a "uniform closet" for our pack to at least encourage correct uniforming by making uniform parts available for free to those who would not otherwise purchase them for their boys. The sad thing is that even my own wife objected to buying long pants for our two boys as a "waste of money" since they would quickly outgrow them and "no one else" wore them anyway! (I did buy them official shorts, which they love, but winter time requires something warmer!)

I am cross-posting this to the "Uniforms" forum.

As a new scouter I purchased two shirts, one short sleeve for active wear, and one long-sleeve, for winter and "dressier" occasions. I see on the inspection guide that neck-wear is optional on the short-sleeve short, if the collar is unbuttoned. This implies that neck-wear is required on the long-sleeve shirt. However the options given are:

1. Bolo Tie

2. Neckerchief ("if applicable", what does that mean?)

3. Olive leader tie

Personally, I do not like Bolo ties. The neckerchief is OK, but I would prefer to wear the Olive leader's tie, however my local scout shop says they are no longer available. I have tried e-bay, but they only list "vintage" 1950's/60's ties which are a different shade of green, definitely not "Olive".

Is the Marine Corps service uniform tie a close enough match? I believe it is also Olive. The Army service tie is black, so that would not work.

Does anyone know where an offical (or indistinguishable look-alike) Olive leader's tie may be obtained?

Thanks!