RichardB

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

LOL, thanks.  You see the logic trap, therefore avoid answering the question.

I will appeal to Caesar, and hold hope that common sense still reigns.

@qwazse, you are once again proven correct!  Rule #1 (Don’t ask for a rule, you’ll live to regret it.)  Not regretting it yet, but getting there 😜 

No trap.  Your question is asked and answered on it's merit.  With a citation of the source of the answer by the guy who publishes it.      

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

But if he was not already registered, at 11 years old, he would be OK?

 

But.... he is not, from your OP, he is an active Cub Scout, still engaged in Cub Scout advancement and programming.    

9 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

It's not a den coordinated campout.  Thanks

And that is why it cannot be done with a single Webelos.  

@InquisitiveScouter single Webelos cannot camp with a unit.    Webelos camp only as a Den or with a Pack.   https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/#a

• Only Webelos and Arrow of Light dens may conduct den coordinated campouts.  Webelos and Arrow of Light den coordinated campouts are restricted to no more than two consecutive nights.  Den camping only includes the Webelos or Arrow of Light youth. As with pack coordinated campouts, the den must have a BALOO trained adult leader in attendance and all Youth Protection policies apply.
  • Webelos/Arrow of Light Den Camping may participate and camp at a Scouts BSA troop unit campout. All Cub Scout camping requirements still apply, including the den must have a BALOO trained adult leader in attendance and all Youth Protection policies apply.
• Webelos/Arrow of Light Dens may only participate at a Scouts BSA “camporee” as day visitors.

July 22-31, 2026

On 2/23/2024 at 1:21 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

@RichardB,

You have any contacts at National who think likewise on the issue of co-ed units? or "unofficial" insights? 

Not sure what likewise means in this context.   However on the subject co-ed Scouts BSA units my response would be that there are not any co-ed options for Scouts BSA units.  Each unit has its own charter and would need to follow the requirements for that charter.      Rolling your own "whatever" and calling it Scouting is a risk I'd not suggest anyone take with youth or their standing with the organization.    

The SAFE checklists specifically addresses this:   https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safe/

Under Supervision:   

• Knowing and delivering the program of the Boy Scouts of America with integrity.

As does the Scouter Code of Conduct.  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/bsa-scouter-code-of-conduct/

92 % + of youth in America are not involved in the movement.    Organizing, running sustainable units and growing the movement is one of the five imperatives to move forward.   I'm not aware that going co-ed is on the radar.  

15 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

The quote is the rule, but the application is confusing.  Backcountry is about extricating a person in an emergency.  Sea Base is not called out in the rule when Philmont is explicitly named.   Sea Base activities are often where a rescue boat can pull right up to the scout ship or Munson island.  So, does "backcountry" apply?   ...  Many resident scout camps could be considered far more back country than Sea Base.  IMHO, use the Sea Base participant guide for clarity.  

Keep reading:   Risk advisory for each HAB are provided with the AHMR download:   https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/ahmr/

5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

@RichardB, any reason for going back to the previous policy?

This is not a revert to previous policy.   It is a change.  

On 6/18/2023 at 12:14 PM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I'm planning a paddling hike for the Bears to really practice those Salmon Run skills, so I'm going to log that too, plus the camping and the yearly swimming event we do! Thanks again 🙇🏼‍♀️

 

Since I was tagged.    Bears can paddle.  They cannot paddle down the river to go on trek / collect miles.      That is beyond the scope / age appropriateness for Cub Scouting.   So, sure you could paddle on a still wide river, but you can't go down the river with the Cub Scouts and call it a paddling hike.  

Any questions, show this to your SE / Aquatics Director in the Council and have them reach out to me richard.bourlon@scouting.org or our the national outdoor program lead who manages the aquatics program.  We concur on the situation as you defined it in the quote above.    

Please don't put yourself or youth at risk.   

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safe/

S - Supervision

@InquisitiveScouter your council is the go to for all volunteer related questions and feedback.    As part of the restructuring that was a choice made by the councils.   The national council no longer has that function nor resources.   Social media sites as feedback loops sometimes work, and sometimes the submitters don't like it when they get what they ask for.   It's hit or miss.   

16 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Yes I know those, but that did not really address the question.

Is a physician signature required on the agency form for all BSA SCUBA participants, whether the agency requires it or not?

That is, if a participant has NO medical contraindications, must they still be cleared by a physician, with a signature on the agency form?

 

Light was shed as requested by the first answer.  You appear to correctly understand that "The BSA requires review and approval of the completed form by a physician."  

The following medical contraindications are based on BSA operational considerations and may be more conservative than those listed in the “Diving Medical Guidance to the Physician.”

Emphasis added above.  

5 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Just learned today that E-bikes are now specifically prohibited.  I guess BSA had that question posed several times, even though it is obviously a "motorized vehicle."

It obviously wasn't as obvious as it needed to be.  

@InquisitiveScouter 

I'd suggest to your list that CPR is a skill every youth you supervise should know, practice and understand not to stop until professional help arrived.   In my tenure as a Scoutmaster, professional trainers were brought in for the youth in my unit and they did well in first aid events at camporees.  

Beware Multiple Comorbidities and cognitive decline.  

BSA known issues:   https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/risk-factors/

@sierracharliescouter No one will harm you without your consent; you will only be harmed when you think you are harmed.    Epictetus...

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Thank you guys for having this discussion.  I hope @RichardB sees this and concludes we have another confusing policy in place that needs clarification, if National actually wishes thoughtful leaders to follow it.

Please help me understand what part of this is not clear?  

• Cub Scout pack unit coordinated camping is limited to single overnight experiences. 

I see lots of discussions on calls for justification not a lack of clarity.   

Interesting to see that when there were cry's of inconsistency and those are removed, it is Orwellian. Specifically, updated LOS inconsistency for additional clarity (there are likely others in the wild) does not equate to Orwellian practice or gaslighting.   

As to why, the limitation on Pack and Webelos / AOL Den camping of one night as an age appropriate guideline.    This has been in place for a long time - can query on this forum back to 2019, your own posting of the chart, BALOO training, Cub Scout page, etc.   Really similar to the limitation of shooting sports do not occur at Cub Scout unit level, only the council level.    Or @Eagle94-A1 favorite Dodge ball is prohibited.   

Couple of good broad why's:  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/is-it-scouting/ and https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/unauthorized-restricted-activities/ 

Assuming this is reference to General Liability insurance I'd point you to materials published in the Guide to Safe Scouting, Insurance (emphasis added) https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss10/#a

This coverage provides primary general liability coverage for registered adults of the Boy Scouts of America who serve in a volunteer or professional capacity concerning claims arising out of an official Scouting activity, which is defined in the insurance policy as consistent with the values, Charter and Bylaws, Rules and Regulations, operations manuals, and applicable literature of the Boy Scouts of America. 

The Unit fundraising application is a requirement.  https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34427.pdf  The second page actually goes into the why's as you answer the questions.   

Oh, also - how can and asked and answered question in 2019 still be under debate?   

What would a poll of the readers here indicate if the question was:  When was the last time you took BALOO or even read the instructor syllabus that was posted?

Cub Packs or Webelos / AOL Dens can organize Overnight activities, at council designated locations, with a BALOO trained leader.  This is neither a new nor changed age appropriate requirement.    It does appear that the intent of overnight, included in BALOO training: https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/510-03318-BALOO_web_v2.pdf, on the Cub Scout Page:   https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/activities/cub-scout-camping/  has been clarified by this update.  It's been in place decades.   

Councils can run longer Cub Scout camping following the National Camp Accreditation Standards.   But units remain limited to overnight opportunities.  Perhaps this is the source of confusion.  

Not new.  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overnight 

On 2/16/2023 at 5:45 PM, Eagle1993 said:

This one snuck in when the other change was announced (about adults staying overnight).

A registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over must be present for any activity involving female youth or female adult program participants.  

So, what is the change?  In the past, "female adult program participants" wasn't listed.  So, my understanding, is if you have a female 18-20 attending an event, you need a registered female adult leader 21 years or older.  

This is not a change in Scouting Barriers to Abuse.   The requirement for an adult female leader 21+ for coed Venturing crews has been around for decades.    Adult program participants came to Troops as part of the rollout of Scouts BSA where extra time could be applied for to obtain Eagle.