Beavah

Dear Terry, I am a relative newbie to the Scouter.com forums, though I have been enjoying Scouter.com since the early days of the magazine. Sometimes the perspective of a new set of eyes can be helpful, so I offer the following thoughts: It certainly is true that Juris' writing style was at times difficult to parse. And yet I found that very often his posts were interesting, and attempted to bring to the discussion alternate views that really exist out in the wider world of Scouting. His concerns about Cub Scouting, for example, could have come straight from the mouth of one of ou

Right. Da BSA is always flawless and anything that goes wrong is the unit leader's fault. Anything that goes right is because of da BSA program. Buffalo Biskits. Read about the latest scouting fatality on the Animas River. One boy dead, multiple boys endangered. Da DE says it was all done "by the (BSA) book" and must be a freak accident. Everyone else wit real knowledge and skill in the articles say that this was an obvious, well-known, well-marked dangerous hazard. Da BSA talks about how they did swim-checks, before paddlin into a trap that an Olympic swimmer would not sur

Actually, Barry, I bragged about being Loosy Goosey because the group-think here (and the level of animosity displayed toward those who werent group-thinking) was so profound. Our SM does a great job. He has many strengths and a few weaknesses. So do I as CC. Well keep the weaknesses under control, but were not going to harp on them. Were going to work with his strengths. In so doing, weve built the largest and most active program in our district. And from my service on Eagle Reviews, were doin just fine on Ideals and Uniform where they count in the heart, not on the sleeve. CN

Laugh or cry. I'm a greenhorn here, I admit. But do yah all think it's alright to treat someone you disagree with in this way? Juris offers an opinion that the BSA booklets ain't Gospel, and are indeed quite quirky when viewed from the perspective of international scouting. Some on this forum "believe" in the BSA Corporate brand as though it were a centralized religion. But even the BSA doesn't believe that, if you look at the extensive modifications it endorses by chartering orgs. like LDS. I know plenty of good people who struggle with literacy, both youth and adults. Juri

Nah, we've always adapted the program according to the strengths of the adults and the input of the youth. Ideals moved a bit out of front-and-center because of the strengths and weaknesses of the current SM. The ideals moving out of front-and -center and the slack in uniforming corresponds most directly to the dramatic improvement in the use of the patrol method and further improvements in the leadership method brought by the current SM. It's a good example of the tradeoffs that come with individual strengths and development, when ya think about it. PL's doing their job and taking

LOL! Yah, well, OK. Maybe not Loosey-Goosey... maybe "cafeteria scouting" or "wild goosey." Let me see... No new scout patrol. No real emphasis on 1st class in a year. No UC. Don't use troop program features. Weak in-house uniforming; no official pants. Well, dat may be it. Still sounds like da sort of "adaptation" that everyone here seems up in arms about. If I were to be honest... The Ideals: We're OK, not as strong as we were a few years ago. Current SM doesn't keep the Oath and Law front-and-center as much. Patrol Method: Pretty good, better than we've

I wouldn't worry too much about the relationship between methods, CNY. Those kinda take care of themselves. Your goal it seems is to build the patrol method in your unit. 1) Make sure the patrols are big enough to be viable on all campouts, even when some members don't show. 2) Make the patrols mixed-age, so that older boys can serve as mentors/leaders, and so patrol competitions of different kinds can be fair. 3) Take Kahuna's advice and blow up your regular summer camp plans. Regular BSA camps with dining halls encourage Personal Growth and individual Advancement, but aren'

CNY, you should of course do what you think is right for your son and your family. There certainly are "issues" in your troop, things that I would not consider ideal. But I gotta be honest, pardner. Ya sound like a candidate for a Bravo TV reality show... "Scout Kids Moms and Dads." Talk to your son. Ask him honestly what he's learning and enjoying. His scouting experience will never be a clone of yours from 20 years ago, and if you try to make it that you will fail utterly. It has to be HIS. Youth leadership means listening to and letting the youth choose and make mistakes.

"Our responsibility is to see that the scouting program is delivered to the boys, not to sit silently while the program is ignored and boys are abandoned." Yah, you need some violin music to go wit dat melodrama, eh? Come on, BobWhite. CNY visited 9 local troops and found this one to be the BEST. His son is happy in the program and has made good friends. The committee discussion sounded like a good committee discussion, not a micromanagement session. The troop recognizes its weaknesses and is willing to engage in long discussions with a bull-in-the-china-shop newcomer, and even b

"It may be that if the great majority of adults aren't following the program, there just might be some reason for that." There's a great guy on our committee who just got his 50-year pin a few years back. He remembers scouting when he was a boy. Them thar scouts really used boy leadership and patrol method. In the summer, they went out into the woodland 5-6 miles outside of town, and camped. Without any adults. For the whole summer! Occasionally (like once a week) an adult would come out to check on them, or they'd hike in to buy food, or whatnot. Can you imagine a modern adult e

Whew, CNY. I think perhaps the "deep breath, step back" is in order. If you are expecting perfection in every troop you touch, you will always be disappointed. Sounds like your son is enjoying his Scouting experience, but you are not. The proper response is for him to do more, and you to do less. It'll make you both happier. Loyalty, Courtesy, Kindness, and Obedience demand that an ASM be a vocal supporter of the SM, even when he or she isn't perfect or even correct. Helpfulness implies that an ASM should step up when their personal skill set can make a contribution. I've

How do other methods support the Patrol Method? They don't necessarily. The purpose of the Methods is to get to the Goals of Scouting... fitness, character, and citizenship. So the real question is probably more like "How do different units use the Patrol Method to help kids build character, grow more physically and mentally fit, and become better citizens?" Sure, the methods sometimes work together. Adult Relationships Method includes helping "coach" patrol leaders, being an example to PL's and others, etc. The Uniform Method helps provide outward "signs" of patrol membership throug

I had a hard time understanding CNY'S message when I read it the first two times. Every time he said "leader" I thought of a boy, so I couldn't figure out how the trip could be run by the leaders (boys) with no input from the scouts. LOL. There's no easy way to train people out of doing things for/to their kids. There's no easy way to have them read a book and understand how to talk with kids as peers, and encourage them to make mistakes (because that shows they have ownership and are trying). There's no good way to explain to people with limited outdoor skills how to run a creative

Ahoy Dan K! You say we haven't had much success with improving leader recruitment. At the same time, you admit that we haven't had much success with improving training / materials / developing a "leader-proof" program that everyone can follow successfully. The thing is, we've spent a lot more time and $$$ trying to do the latter. And we continue to spend more time and $$$ on curriculum and regulation even though we know, as you admit, that finding better leaders gets us a much bigger bang. That's just poor economics. I wonder what would happen if half the $$ spent on cu

With Juris, I vote in favor of Loosey-Goosey. Maybe I just like the freedom and beauty of a flying goose. I'm CC in a unit with a good CO relationship. The CO and COR are involved in unit financial oversight, committee member selection, and leader selection and training. Most of our troop ASMs are non-parents (former scouts, CO and community volunteers). In that way, we follow the BSA model better than most units mentioned here. Aside from that, we're loosey-goosey. Our unit leaders and PLC adapt BSA materials to meet their needs all the time. Two months ago, I sat on a Life BO

Woodbadge BobWhite comments that being a scout leader is a challenging but not a difficult task, that requires only attitude and acceptance of the program. While that's hard to parse syntactically, my point was similar. Good youth leaders come with significant prior knowledge (aptitude) and significant natural inclination (attitude) to work with kids. Curriculum (program) and training are never sufficient to replace these things. At best they can supplement or shore up a weak spot... maybe. Relying on program / curriculum is never sufficient. You have to find good, capable, enthu

Our educational community has spent 50+ years and some billions of dollars attempting to come up with "teacher-proof" curricula... programs and materials that do not require good people but are still successful. I think that (with the exception of the commercial promoters) the consensus is that "human-proof" programs are not possible. "Just follow the curriculum" doesn't work. Anywhere. Ever. Finding good people may seem harder. But perhaps if we put the same energy and money into that as we have into fine-grained analysis of the program we'd show better results.

In 20 years, I've seen: 2 expulsions (marijuana & behavior) 1 suspension/expulsion (repeated bullying) 1 suspension/expulsion (repeated gross safety issues w/behavior problems) A few other suspensions (behavior/fighting) that turned kids around. It is hard to do as an adult. Many adults don't care enough about their kids to do things like suspensions when they need to. But if things aren't working, you have to change the environment if the boys (all of them) are going to learn anything.

Each year, we put together an "annual report" for the unit which we provide to all the officers and board members of the chartered org. It features lots of good things, numbers (of kids, of outings, of service hours), financial reports, and challenges. It always leads off with the explanatation that it is a report on the CO's program. We also do cleanup and service work whenever asked, of course, and some Eagle projects for the CO. The hardest thing for us has been keeping the communication lines open. It really helps if someone on the unit committee is also on the CO's board or i

Interesting discussion. New and "undistinguished" teachers are helped by being provided a good, highly specified and well developed curriculum. If they follow it. Following the program can move a poor teacher into the lower end of mediocre. Good and experienced teachers do better when they are provided a good, highly specified and well developed curriculum AND ADAPT IT to the local conditions. That's the difference between a mediocre teacher and an excellent one. In education, we're pretty sure that curriculum amounts to something like 5% of the variance in outcomes. That i