perdidochas

2 hours ago, awanatech said:

I have one son who just graduated high school and another going into 9th grade.  We have had many school (grade level), band & church outings over the years.  We have never had the adults open any luggage or pack to inspect for any contraband items.  I don't know of any times that there have been unannounced searches without the owner of the bag (at minimum the student) being present.  And even in those very limited situations where a bag has been searched, it was a limited scope to include the bags of a very small group.  In one case, 4 students were staying together in a room.  One student claimed that something was missing.  The bags of those 4 students were searched, with the students being present.  There was no room to room search of every bag of every student.  We have never done this in Scouting either.  As a Scoutmaster, I'm not searching bags without a very valid, specific reason.  The situation in the OP seems quite troubling to me.  As a parent, I would have a problem with adults arbitrarily searching bags like that also.  

In a Scouting context, there is no 4th amendment issue as BSA is a private organization.  However, with the schools, that could come into play as the adults leading the school sanctioned trips would be agents of the state at that point.  How do you articulate that you have probable cause to search each bag, of each student, just to make sure there is nothing in there that they aren't supposed to have?  

I agree with you 100%.  My sons (one just finished his second year of college, other one just finished his first) went on a variety of trips with different organizations. I'm not aware that they had ever been routinely searched. If I were a SM or ASM again, I wouldn't routinely search for contraband.  I might have the older boys make sure the younger boys have what they need for a trip, but no routine search for contraband.  

That said, there are no 4th amendment issues with school officials doing searches of luggage in extracurricular trips.  Why? Extracurricular trips are a privilege, not a right, and you choose to go on extracurricular activities. In my local district, this means they have to agree to random drug testing to participate.  

13 hours ago, yknot said:

A 'scout is trustworthy' will not be an adequate legal defense when a scout arrives at a camp site with an inappropriate item and something unfortunate happens because a leader didn't check the bags. We're involved in a youth organization and as adults it's our job to keep them safe. No other youth organization would allow kids on an outing without checking bags. On school, church and sports outings I've been involved with, it's been done by adults as part of the routine while loading buses and cars and no kids are present. 

I wouldn't be a scout leader in a troop where routine searching of luggage was the norm.  I agree that the power to do so should exist, but I also believe in trust. There is no way you can gain trust without trusting someone. Now, if there was a reasonable suspicion, I could see searching, but not without it.  As I've said, my sons were involved in Scouting, sports, band and church groups, all of which involved overnight travel at one point or another. I'm not aware that any searches were ever done of them, and I would find it odd if it did. 

16 hours ago, yknot said:

Why would a scout need to be present? More important that two adults are present so that nothing can be "planted" on a kid. Frankly, it's only scouts where kids' luggage, backpacks, etc., is not routinely subject to adult search. BSA needs to get with the times. Class trips, sports team travel, band trips, it all gets searched no bones, no big deal about it. I applaud that scoutmaster. 

 

What kind of fascist place do you live in?  

I'm glad I live in a free area of a free state.  

16 hours ago, yknot said:

Why would a scout need to be present? More important that two adults are present so that nothing can be "planted" on a kid. Frankly, it's only scouts where kids' luggage, backpacks, etc., is not routinely subject to adult search. BSA needs to get with the times. Class trips, sports team travel, band trips, it all gets searched no bones, no big deal about it. I applaud that scoutmaster. 

 

My sons were involved in sports (with overnight trips to games) and band (with overnight trips). Never once did their luggage get searched, although, I do know the coaches/band directors had that power.  Do the searches that you claim happen occur secretly, or in front of the students?  

17 hours ago, yknot said:

I think this is another case where BSA is 10 or 15 years behind the times. There should be no expectation of privacy on a scout outing. It's not a matter of trust, it's simply the current reality.  There should be no discussion here. Scoutmaster, camp personnel, other designated leaders should have ability to search backpacks at any time if they have just cause. Whether it's cell phones, medications that could make someone sick if not administered properly, or contraband snacks in bear territory, the SM and the camp and troop leaders shoulder the responsibility of keeping everyone safe. 

I think the  problem most of us have, is that it was done while the Scouts were at activities, and that they were never told about it, but figured it out.  I agree totally that the SM has the right to search a backpack or locker, as part of his en loco parentis.  However, since he's not the parent, he should do so transparently--out in the open, in front of the Scout who's stuff is being searched.  

On 6/18/2019 at 7:12 PM, Scoutmomonly said:

Is there a policy preventing a scoutmaster from going through a scout’s tote at summer camp?

He claims he was cleaning up and noticed several scouts had medication and cell phones so he then looked at all the totes and took all the phones and meds. 

Kids are upset because they were at their merit badges and came back to find their stuff had been gone through. 

I tried to talk with him to explain how the kids felt, but he states he was protecting himself since the kids had “contraband”.  Just wondering if this should be reported. 

This is a tough one.  First, I do agree that the Scoutmaster has the right to go through a scout's bag.That said, as a former ASM, there is no way I would go through somebody's bag without a witness, and I wouldn't do so without the knowledge of the Scout.  Our Troop had a policy of the Scouts managing their own medication, unless the parents of the Scout specifically asked the SM/ASMs to manage their medication.  

4 hours ago, CarlosD said:

We just got back from summer camp, my first one as SM. On our last night, a scout cut himself in the knee with his knife. He claims to have treated the wound himself correctly. He did not notify an adult. The next morning was return day and his knee was swollen. Upon arriving home his dad had to take him to the ER and he is on antibiotics. He will be fine, but I am wondering if your troop has policies as to who can treat a wound and if adult leaders need to be notified about any injury.

Sounds to me like the boy didn't want to lose a corner of his Totin' chip.  My troop had no policies about it.  I don't see the big deal.  

1 hour ago, Thunderbird said:

I know some adults who try to encourage Scouts to take Eagle-required merit badges at summer camp.  I think this is fine for some (swimming), but many of them are a lot like school and not really suited for the summer camp environment.  Why work on citizenship in the world at summer camp when you could be doing something fun with your buddies?  Kayaking, climbing, horseback riding, motorboating, etc.  I try to encourage Scouts to sign up for merit badges that they think will be fun or interesting (especially if we do not have a counselor for a particular merit badge in our troop).

I know some that do that also. I've had to correct them when it came to my own sons.  I don't have any problem with the Eagle Required MBs being worked on in summer camp, my problem is the book based ones (namely the three Citizenship badges, Sustainability, Personal Management and Family life) and Personal Fitness.  The rest can be started (or completed) at summer camp. Swimming/Hiking/Cycling, Lifesaving, Environmental Science, First Aid, Camping, Cooking and even Communication.  That said, camping and cooking couldn't be finished at summer camp. 

2 hours ago, mrkstvns said:

Precisely!

Summer camps provide "experts" in fields that are most closely related to the outdoor experience.  Boys can create meaningful memories if they stick to the topics that camps do best:  aquatics, shooting sports, camp craft, etc.  Take Horsemanship. Take Climbing.  Take Whitewater.  Take Archery.  Leave boring bookish classes like any Citizenship badge to the troop or to local merit badge workshops.  There's a right time and place for everything, and summer camp is no time to get bored.

I agree, except for the case of old Life Scouts (17 years old) that need the eagle MBs. 

2 hours ago, mrkstvns said:

I would revise the G2SS to eliminate as many prohibitions as possible, and may even make many of them into REQUIREMENTS.

For example, G2SS says that scouts under age 18 should not use power tools.

In today's world, we use power tools. A man won't be a competent family man and homeowner if he can't do basic work around the house. A scout should:

• Demonstrate how to safely and appropriately use 3 different power saws: such as a jigsaw, a circular saw, and a table saw
• Demonstrate how to safely use 3 different power tools used to maintain landscaping: such as a lawnmower, chainsaw, or hedge trimmers
• Show how to safely and appropriately use a power drill to: a) drill a small hole, b) use a hole cutter attachment to drill a hole large enough for a door knob or deadbolt lock, c) use a screw driver bit (standard or phillips) to build a wall frame or install drywall or fence boards

 

 

I agree totally. The downside of that requirement is all of the extra door knobs that will be installed at the Scout Hut.....

On 6/4/2019 at 10:50 AM, qwazse said:

I thought I'd drop a quick anecdote about signing off for Life Rank #6. There are a number of quiescent threads on this topic. I'm resurrecting this one in particular because it was spawned by our beloved OGE (R.I.P.).

SM and I were chatting about the super-cool US contingent World Jambo neckers (the largest I've ever seen from BSA) when along comes a Star scout asking to sign off a couple of remaining requirements. This scout is more action than words. We weren't sure he'd stick around, but he did and is a genuine quality youth.

He said, "I taught so many kids this stuff, do I have to do one in particular?"

We asked him if they learned what he taught them, he said they did.

I asked if he used the EDGE method, did he even know what it stood for? He gave me that "really-do-I-have-to?" look.

I then asked the outgoing SM (who had actually consumed a troop meeting to teach EDGE) if he could tell the scout what the method was. The guy tripped over the first letter. "Uh, Engourage?"

I concluded. "Seems like you know it as well as Mr. Old SM. Get your signature from him and ask Mr. New SM for your conference. Oh, and keep teaching our scouts as well as you've already been doing."

When a Star wanted that requirement signed off, we would ask the younger Scout that he trained to show us the skill at the next meeting (the meeting after he was trained to do a skill by the Star Scout). If the younger Scout couldn't do it, we would require the Star to try again.  

On 5/22/2019 at 7:49 AM, swilliams said:

I'm sure this has been asked before, but a quick search didn't turn up quite what I was looking for.  Does BSA have any guidelines as for what constitutes "Troop Activity"?  Obviously they spell out the requirement that the activity can't be a regular troop and patrol meetings.

If there aren't any real rules, what does your troop consider an activity?  In the thread about girls advancing quickly, one forum member posted a list of activities his troop as done since the beginning of the year, so that's helpful.  It included some service projects.  Our troop does service where the project is arranged by the service chair.  Individual scouts who need help with their Eagle projects set up their own times and hours.  Does your troop include Eagle project service as an activity?  Any help is appreciated.

 

Sons' old Troop called a troop activity anything that the Troop did as a whole outside of fundraising for the Troop (this was a few years ago, so we had individual scout accounts for fundraising).  If the Eagle project was open to the Troop, it counted.  

On 6/3/2019 at 8:39 AM, mrkstvns said:

As it gets easier and easier to find merit badge classes, it gets harder and harder to find GOOD merit badge classes.

Council-run summer camps increasingly expand their merit badge offerings into classroom subjects that they are ill-equipped to teach --- particularly in the inadequate time they allow. Merit badge universities (or colleges or midways) are sometimes even worse, with some events alotting as little as 2 hours to teach a subject that requires 6 hours or more to cover the requirements as written. Scouts are shortchanged with poor experiences.

That's why it's so refreshing to me to hear about groups or individuals who make the effort to create merit badge "experiences" in which scouts get an honest chance to see what a field is about. In a good merit badge class, they interact with adults with deep experience and expertise in a field. In a good merit badge class, they get a chance to do real, hands-on activities. 

Here's an example of a "good" merit badge experience....
https://www.dvidshub.net/news/323430/air-force-dentists-boy-scouts-team-up-dentistry-merit-badge 

 

Personally, except for Life Scouts working on Eagle in fear of aging out, I discouraged Scouts from working on "book-related" merit badges at Summer Camp. I don't think my sons ever took one at Summer camp. They took most of the aquatics badges, the activity badges (climbing, etc.), at Summer Camp.  Life's too short to spend hours at summer camp listening to a ill-prepared Scout teaching Citizenship merit badges.  

On 5/23/2019 at 12:12 PM, mrkstvns said:

Sounds like you'd create a more relevant, challenging program.

In addition to incorporating more Orienteering and Wilderness Survival skills, I'd include the "challenging" requirements from Pioneering MB.  Using lashings to make something really COOL would be challinging and a practical demonstration of using kntos and lashings.  (Besides, who doesn't want to try out a monkey bridge??)

I also think that skills in handling watercraft are useful and relevant.  Maybe sailing, or maybe kayaking or canoeing.  

Basic river rescue skills could also be useful.  

Swimming skills at the level that they could save a life would be nice:  complete BSA Lifeguard, or complete BSA Aquatics Supervision: Swimming and Water Rescue (or similarly challenging course, such as Red Cross or YMCA lifeguard certifications).

I think it would also be useful to challenge scouts to master some subset of skills to the level they can teach it, for example, get a Red Cross CPR instructor certificate, or become a Leave No Trace trainer, or complete the USA Archery instructor course.  (Not just go through the motions using EDGE, but actually be able to teach a skill "for real").

I wouldn't want BSA lifeguard, etc. to become a requirement.  I don't think that anybody but a water-loving great swimmer should become a lifeguard.  If we made it a T21 requirement, it would end up being too watered down to be effective.  

On 5/23/2019 at 11:40 AM, RichardB said:

Do parents today (your future leader pool) have the ability to teach these skills?    Asking for a friend.  

Well, technically speaking, the Scouts should be teaching these skills.  

On 5/22/2019 at 9:55 AM, MattR said:

I was talking to two nearly-18 Life scouts that are busting their rears to get everything done on time. As I was talking to them it hit me that a lot of requirements really don't make you a better scout. It seems to me that when I was a scout we honestly needed to know all the first class requirements in order to be good scouts. We needed axe and fire skills if we wanted to make a fire to cook our food. We used knots because we'd cut down trees and make stuff. Map and compass, absolutely. First aid, while not used every campout, was used. The tracking probably wasn't needed and while the plant and animal identification is nice, it's not really a core skill. For the most part it was all useful and we used it most campouts. That was a big part of the motivation to get things signed off. It made you a better scout. You were more useful to your patrol if you had those skills.

Now, you don't need knots or fire or an axe for most campouts. Clips and stoves have replaced them. Map and compass is useful but in many places people aren't allowed off a trail and you don't have to go for a hike other than a few requirements. First aid is still good. On the whole, it seems to be a bit obsolete. Or at least less relevant than it used to be. Rank doesn't necessarily mean more useful to your patrol. It just means you have more things signed off.

I thought back to @Kudu's comment about Free Range Kids and the pros and cons of lone patrols and "troops." The FRK idea is the parents train their kids to do something on their own and then the kids go do it, on their own. Would parents that want their kids to go off and do adventures consider First Class to be useful training?

What skills would make a scout more adventurous? Here's my random list: How to make or fix your own gear (i.e., Macgyver skills). Making a backpacking wood stove. Taking care of cast iron cookware. Cooking a meal for 8 on your own with no help and from only simple ingredients (and buying the food on your own). Moving all of Orienteering MB into First Class. Making a survival shelter. Taking your patrol on a campout with the requisite planning and approval. Making a fire in a down poring rain. Making fire starters. Make a knife blade from 1/8" steel plate. Kill and clean a chicken, part it and then cook it (I haven't done all of these last two but it sure would be fun to learn). Or even just how to part a whole chicken.

I would think that if a First Class scout could do these types of things they would have more confidence at being adventurous and trying new things. No describe and discuss, just do things that are beyond the usual plop camping and "plop cooking" (pre made meals). The goal would no longer be skills you can learn in a year. Rather, skills that would make your patrol more independent.

Granted, there's no way the requirements will change but it's just a thought. Unless someone knows how to incorporate these ideas into their troops.

We don't need to camp, either.  This is not a matter of absolute needs for scout camping or camping, but for life.  I can see maybe getting rid of axe skills--saws are much more useful, but I can't see getting rid of the saw skills.  Most people need these in one way or another if they own a home.  Fire skills, too, are probably more important for everyday life than in scouting today.  (that said, fires are a great way to keep kids in Scouts, when weather conditions make them possible).  What tracking in the First Class skills?  There is a requirement to see evidence of animals, but not necessarily tracking.  Plant and animal identification is an important life skill for anybody that wants to be an outdoorsman. Also, honestly, the skills you have mentioned are among the most fun that the T21 scouts learn.  Knots are much more useful than clips because clips can't be used for everything.  

I do agree with your wanting to make scouts more adventurous, but taking away axes, fire and compasses is not going to make scouting more adventurous.  Also, your post seemed a bit strange, as in the first two paragraphs you talk about how obsolete map/compass/axe/firebuilding are, then in the 4th paragraph you include all of the above as new first class requirements. You can't learn orienteering without also learning the basic map/compass.  Also, not sure what you are talking about with "pre-made" meals, other than for backpacking?  Does your troop just buy a bunch of  Mountain-House meals for a car-camping trip? My sons' troop just bought ingredients and made the food for car camping from the ingredients (yes, they did buy just add water or milk pancake flour).    

Here's the only two  things I would add to current T21 requirements:

Sewing--require sewing on of a button, patch and repairing a hole.  This must be done in front of the tester (ASM, SM, or older scout).  Not adventurous, but would be essential for McGyvering (IMHO, knots are essential for McGyvering as well).  

"Away from the road" camping. One of the camping requirements in 1a should require the scout or group of scouts to bring all of their essential gear with them for a camp overnight for a distance of at least a mile without motorized transport.  This could include backpacking, snowshoe packing, cross country sky packing, bikepacking, or canoe/kayak camping.

On 5/3/2019 at 10:23 AM, rickmay said:

I am interested in doing wood badge and also ding the outdoor leadership training for my growth as an assistant scoutmaster--which one should I try to attain first?

By OLS, do you mean Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills (IOLS), which is a requirement to be trained as an ASM. It should come first.

On 3/7/2019 at 8:37 PM, HashTagScouts said:

I often reflect on what Mike Row had to say when asked about the decision to admit girls- he highlighted the more pressing issue that the BSA, and all of those in it, should be focused on - is the BSA even relevant? If you never read this, or haven't re-read it since last May, give it a look: http://mikerowe.com/2018/05/otw-death-of-the-boy-scouts/

"If I were calling the shots, I’d take a stand against the safe space movement and everything it embodies. And I’d do it in the most public way possible. But of course, that might also require a level of risk completely inconsistent with current orthodoxy."

I agree 100% of this with Mike Rowe.  I've found myself guilty of some of the safe space stuff back when I was an ASM (primarily on backpacking trips, where I knew medical help was hours away), but tried my best to let the boys take risks and govern themselves.

I had problems with a fellow ASM in our troop--an ASM who wasn't with the boys nearly as often as I was (I'm not sure I ever saw him on a campout with us), but his son was about to age out (and had completed all but his Eagle Scout project and one or two merit badges years earlier), and he had work circumstances that didn't allow him to be with us every week/campout.  He criticized me and the other leaders for allowing the boys to play some field game (not sure which one) without direct adult supervision.  My thoughts were at first, ok, if you're worried about them I'll go out there with you. Something felt wrong about doing it, but I didn't want to confront him.  Over the next week, I thought about it, and realized his trouble with it. He didn't know and trust the older boys in the Troop as well as I did.  I had no doubts that if there were some kind of accident (and there was more than once), that the older boys in the Troop would take care of it.  They would do what they had been taught, and assess any injury as well as get help if it was beyond their abilities.  I felt bad for caving into mistrust of them.  

On 5/3/2019 at 10:10 AM, qwazse said:

I'm a little confused as to the "other activities". We let our scouts go out around the church and cemetery grounds. They may get the (somewhat flat) basketball from the shed and shoot hoops. We don't require adults to be there. One of us may go around to check on them periodically. They often manage to make themselves useful. For example, last meeting they collected a bunch of junk that was dumped in the woods.

We've also had times when everyone was expected to stay in patrol corners even if the patrol was working on something that the scout wasn't interested it. Patrol corners are rarely more than 20 minutes, so that process didn't seem to trouble everyone. Note: we don't micro-manage patrols. Come up with a menu, or not. It's their stomachs on the line.

I don't think it's a bad idea to have the scouts in patrols for a set portion of the meeting. But, if you do, I think you need to figure out what you expect from the non-participants at that time. Maybe you need to have them join you halfway through the patrol time and go over something else relevant to troop life (e.g., the next event they will be attending, general equipment needs, projects to do for the CO, ...).

If your complaint came from a first-year, I'd brush it off. But, maybe the old SPL is seeing something that's bothering him. Maybe some scouts are disrupting the boys who are trying to pull their weekend together. I'd try to listen to him and ask him his suggested plan B.

It could also be that he's not comfortable with change.

I pretty much agree with your views.  Talk to the old SPL and see what's going on.  

On 5/3/2019 at 9:33 AM, CarlosD said:

We used to let the non-attendees do other activities, but this created problems with having enough adult supervision, etc. Having all Scouts participate in planning is something new we are trying. Would be interested in hearing how other troops do this.

Why would Scouts need much adult supervision?  The older Scouts should be doing supervising.  

On 5/2/2019 at 11:24 PM, CarlosD said:

Hi,

Am new to the forum. I have been an adult leader for the past nine years. My younger son recently crossed over and I was asked to be the SM for our troop. Since I had previously taken the SM/ASM training, I accepted. I was wondering how much latitude the Scoutmaster has in setting up troop meeting structure. We now have a segment during the meeting where patrols plan their next campout. We (the SPL and I) are requiring all Scouts to participate even if some are not going on the campout. We feel this keeps all of the Scouts engaged in planning outdoor activities, which is an important training element in itself and even induces more Scouts to attend outdoor activities, which of course is a crucial element of Scouting. One  Scout (the previous SPL) thinks Scouts should not be forced to help with campout planning if they will not be attending and was able to get a vote in the PLC in favor of this. Can the PLC change the rules on who may participate in certain activities? Thanks for your input.

Your question "Can the PLC change the rules on who may participate in certain activities?" doesn't really match the situation. You explain it as the PLC saying that scouts not going to the activity shouldn't be forced into planning it.  I think your question really is "How much authority does the PLC have in actually running the troop?"  

Personally, I agree with the PLC and the former SPL. I don't want Scouts who don't want to be involved in planning an activity to be forced to plan an activity.  It's different if they want to. A scout forced to plan an activity is not necessarily going to be doing so in the best interest of the patrol.  That said, I also wouldn't look too kindly to a scout that doesn't want to help their patrol out, even if not going.  

20 hours ago, mds3d said:

Holy Zombie Thread, Batman!

I love having a full size (square) necker.   Anything else and I would rather go without.  

I cant find the original parent thread, anyone want to summarize why EDGE was so bad?

 

There is nothing wrong with EDGE.  It's a basic formula for instruction in physical skills--Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable.  It's basically what good instructors do for physical skills. First you tell how to do it, then you show how to do it (can combine the two steps), then guide them to actually doing it, and finally give them opportunities to do it.  Is it the only way to instruct in physical skills? Of course not, but it's a pretty good basic method.  The real problem is that in most troops, we don't do the second E well enough.  

1 hour ago, mrkstvns said:

Many troops over the years have successfully raised money for their unit by hosting a breakfast. Pancake breakfast, omelette breakfast, or even all you can eat feast. Make it your own. Have a few pamphlets around so the event can help recruit new scouts. 

Here's some news about a troop charging $8 for adults and $5 for kids. Eggs the way you like 'em, bacon, sausage, biscuits, etc.
https://fiddleheadfocus.com/2019/05/28/news/community/top-stories/boy-scouts-to-cook-up-breakfast-feast-and-host-silent-auction-fundraiser/ 

 

Our Church youth group hosts pancake breakfasts.  IMHO, it's the best bang for your buck for fundraising. We generally give three pancakes and a sausage patty, with juice and/or coffee and charge $5.  A 10 lb bag of pancake mix (just add water) is less than 10, and will make 270 pancakes.  

On 5/20/2019 at 7:13 PM, elitts said:

Is this a recent change?  Last I remember reading this I would have sworn that while the Scoutmaster was specifically not permitted to be on the Board of Review, the participation of ASMs was only discouraged and could be permitted if no other option was available.

As Sentinel says below,  Unless they changed it in the late 2010s, it has been the rule for ASMs not to be allowed on a Board of Review.  

On 5/22/2019 at 1:31 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

As you some of you folks know, I am in a new troop. Old troop had no problems with alcohol stoves, and my oldest carried one on the AT 2 years ago and I did last year. I love mine and have had 0 issues with it. While the troop don't mind me using one, they do not want the Scouts using one.

As for my Whisperlite, it has been unreliable. Very first camp out I try to use it on, and a seal busted causing a leak. And it didn't work on a second camp out. That was when I was introduced to alcohol stoved.

It seems as if the preferred stove is a canister stove any recommendations? Not looking into a system like the Jetboil, and needs to be affordable. My wife is going to kill me when she finds out I need another stove.

One option is to get a cheapie chinese canister stove from Amazon. You can usually find them for around $10 and they are great for boiling water.  Or you can go just a bit more extravagant, and get something like a Primus Classic trail stove for around $20.  With it, you can adjust the flame somewhat, and I could use it for steambaking, which requires a low boil.  It's a bit heavier than other choices (8 oz vs. 3-4 oz for other choices), but as I said, it adjusts rather well.  I have both the cheapie, and the Primus Classic, as well as a jetboil imitator.  All have their uses, but if I were to have to just use one, I'd probably go for the Primus. It's more stable and much better built (it's rugged) than the cheapie, and more versatile than either the cheapie or the Jetboil-itator.  

The Primus Classic Trail Stove:

https://www.amazon.com/d/Camping-Backpacking-Stoves/Primus-P-224383-Classic-Trail-Stove/B000RHCOP0

I've also seen it on walmart.com for a bit cheaper.