perdidochas
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Posts posted by perdidochas
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2 hours ago, SteveMM said:
Okay, I thought this was a joke or a typo, but then I did a quick search, and found this: https://www.vocativ.com/culture/fun/fairly-recently-ymca-actually-required-swimmers-nude/index.html
So, I learned something. Wow.
My late Dad, and my father-in-law (both in their 80s) talked about this.
It also featured in a Everybody love Raymond episode, where nude swimming happened at the Lodge.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0574200/quotes/?tab=qt&ref_=tt_trv_qu
Marie Barone: Marco is my friend. Now I never see him anymore. He's always with your father. They're watching sports or swimming nude at the lodge.
Debra Barone: There isn't enough chlorine in the world.
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6 minutes ago, qwazse said:
From the hammock of our Jambo SM (because all the boys left camp, finally):
We need a new word.
People who work for scouting are professionals; who do things in free time for youth, volunteers; who do it for cheap, staff; but ...
What is a word for people who pay to work (e.g., International Service Team or SMs/ASMs)?
Scout leaders or for a single word, scouters.
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On 7/23/2019 at 7:42 PM, David CO said:
We required it.
Well, in 1977, my troop wasn't that strict. (Did swim everyday). That said, as an adult leader, we required the boys to shower at least once. Most showered every day.
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Our troop uses a hitch lock and a tire boot when parked in the CO parking lot and we don't leave it loaded, except for the dutch ovens, cast iron pans and propane lanterns which have dedicated compartments in the trailer.
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2 hours ago, Eagledad said:
In my youth, there was a life guard attended spring fed swimming hole at summer camp where skinning dipping allowed.
I guess this word "creepy" came from adults because I've never heard anything like it from scouts taking group showers. I also don't remember hearing anything like it when adults showered with scouts back in the day, but times are different. Hey, what about trans scouts and adult leaders? Still, I find it ironic that the only adult leaders I've seen get in trouble at scout camps are women leaders (moms) walking into the youth showers to check on their scouts. There is not doubt in my mind they were just following their motherly instinct of checking on her chicks, but they learned quickly the seriousness of the rules. When one of our female leaders heard about the scandal, she wondered how they would have felt about a dad checking in on a girl scout troop. Of course those words are closer to home now. I would not be surprised that the required facility changes for girls will push a few camps to be sold. These things are very expensive and some councils can't afford it.
Barry
When I was a youth (I'm 53 now), I would have thought it strange that adults were showering with Scouts. I don't think I would do it. I might have showered with other youth, but I wouldn't have liked it. I don't think I ever showered at summer camp, though, or at almost any campout, as a youth.
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On 7/15/2019 at 5:54 AM, Eagle1993 said:
Our camp had two shower houses. One had 8 individual stalls and 30 minute wait times. The other had two separate group shower areas (male youth/male adults). Those were routinely empty (Only once did I ever hear a shower going on the youth side). I even suggested to some youth who were waiting in a long line for the individual showers that the other shower house was open... thinking back now, that could have sounded a bit creepy.
In any case, many youth today seem especially self conscious and have no desire to use the traditional group shower areas. I agree, I expect every camp will be moving to the individual stalls in the future.
I agree. I think that's the trend everywhere, not just in scouts. When my old Troop went to Camp Daniel Boone, they had a great setup for showers and bathrooms. They had two buildings with about a dozen doors on the two sides (longwise). Each shower (and each toilet) had it's own door. No worries about if youth or adults of either gender were in the shower room next to you.
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On 7/12/2019 at 6:27 PM, WisconsinMomma said:
I bought my two sons some Crocs (closed toe but holey) today for camp wear, along with sneakers/hikers. Do you think these are closed-toe enough? This is a last-minute question, I can return them to the store or send them up to camp. We'll make our best guess. I can go exchange for non-hole Crocs as well.
Thanks!
More than likely, no. IMHO, they are great, but I have been chastized at Scout events for that view. I actually can't imagine a better camp shoe than crocs (provided the crocs don't have worn out soles).
When I was a Scout leader, though, I wore closed toed sandals for summer camp. Yes, I also carried boots. I liked crocs for backpacking. They are great for stream crossings and to wear around a camp site.
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4 hours ago, mrkstvns said:
Lest we criticize the ambitious scoutmaster too much, let's ponder an article in "Boys Life" that celebrated a troop for doing a 50-mile trip in homemade boats...
https://boyslife.org/video-audio/153762/scouts-paddle-50-miles-in-homemade-kayaks/I remembered that article.
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3 hours ago, TMSM said:
I have yet to see good results from a 1st year scout program and they seem to teach the same things we do in our weekly program. We highly encourage scouts to take Swimming and FA their first year and the other 2 or 3 is based on interest. This allows them to complete requirements in 2nd and 1st class. Advancment is one of the methods and it should be encouraged but not dictated.
I agree with you 100%. BSA should get rid of the 1st year Scout Programs at summer camp. I agree with you about Swimming and First Aid, but other than that, Scouts should have fun (and swimming for most of them is fun).
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6 hours ago, SteveMM said:
I was talking recently to the parent of a brand new Scout in our troop, and asked what merit badges his son is taking at summer camp in a couple of weeks. He said he'd had a discussion with our SM, and was told that the Scout should choose anything he wanted, just have fun this first year, and worry about advancement later. When he listed off the badges this Scout was taking, I had to clamp down on my tongue. They were all "elective" badges, with not one that will help with the Scout's advancement.
When my son went to his first summer camp (which was four years ago this week, by the way) it was suggested that he take swimming, cooking, or first aid (or all of the above) plus whatever else he wanted. It was a good mix of required badges and fun badges. The reasoning behind this was twofold. First, a number of requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class are found in those merit badges. Second, they're Eagle-required badges that he would need eventually anyhow. I would add that these merit badges teach necessary skills that every Scout should have.
Do you think this new Scout parent was given bad advice, or am I focused too much on advancement? While I get that there shouldn't be a rush to advance, I think stagnation is just as bad if not worse. I don't think it's good for a boy to remain at the Scout rank for a year.
I agree with the Scoutmaster. Scouts should take as many fun merit badges as they can at summer camp. Yes, I would suggest swimming and first aid (not cooking, it's very involved, and cooking requirements used in cooking MB shouldn't be used for rank advancement, IIRC). That said, I think, besides for 17 year old Life Scouts, the book badges should be banned at summer camp--no Citizenship, Personal Management, Family Life, etc. should be taught at summer camp.
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21 hours ago, swilliams said:
I bought some of the perforated blue cards from the scout shop and figured I'd pre-print some with scouts' names for our Scoutmaster to take to camp. Well, the only template I can find anywhere is one that prints the entire text. The blue cards from the shop already have some of the text on them, so if I use the pdf I found online it will print over what's already there. Does anyone know whether a template exists that works with the cards from the scout shop? Why does BSA have to make everything so dang user UN-friendly?
Give the Scouts the Blue cards and have them fill them out before summer camp--in this process you can have the older boys teach them about what needs to be filled out--we had a handwritten template on a bulletin board in our scout hut for the scouts to follow. Never do what a Scout can do for himself. Give out the blue cards before summer camp. Have them fill out the information about themselves.
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On 6/28/2019 at 6:08 AM, qwazse said:
Black out anything that says there is a specific timeline. "First Class First Year" (a.k.a. FCFY) is a lie and harmful to the health of the troop. Also, telling a scout he should earn just one rank a year will probably bore him. The best guidance is "Hustle up, but take your time."
A good troop will naturally provide opportunities to practice each 1st class skill every year. But a healthy troop will have some scouts who master those skills in under six month and others (like my boys, both Eagles) who take 3 to 4 years to make 1st Class.
Star, Life, and Eagle are much more challenging. The minimum time to earn those ranks is 16 months, but most boys can take two or three times that. I suspect girls will find the same experience -- not impossible, but not a slam dunk.
So you will find a fair spread of ages of earning Eagle -- from 12 to 18. After Eagle, a scout can earn Palms, and be challenged with other awards and accolades. Really, Eagle is just one piece of a much larger puzzle.
I agree with you on FCFY, but have a different view of it. I think a Troop should be capable of producing a FCFY scout. By that, I mean that if a Scout attends every activity/meeting, etc., and is diligent, they could get First Class in a year. That said, I don't think I've seen a Scout get FCFY in our old troop. They could have theoretically, but in practice, it just didn't happen. The quickest I can remember is about FC in 18 months, with 2 years being more typical.
In terms of Eagles, etc., I think a 15 year old Eagle is about ideal. At that age, the Eagle will probably still want to participate in troop life, but won't get bored by it.
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On 6/27/2019 at 8:59 PM, astrila said:
We’re currently in cubs and looking ahead - it seems there are 7 ranks for Boy Scouts, and there are also 7 years, right? It makes sense at first glance to complete one rank per year... However, in the handbook, it says you should try to complete the first 4 the first year... So 4 ranks in one year and 3 the next 6 years?? So grade-wise are they basically saying
6th grade complete Scout, tenderfoot, 2nd, 1st
7 & 8th grade work on Star
9-10th Life
11-12th Eagle ... ?
This just seems odd to me... Please correct my thinking here and help me understand the timelines... My son & our family want to create a balanced goals timeline that will most evenly space out the amount of time required, not trying to rush or finish early. It also seems to me that if the first 4 ranks are so easy maybe there shouldn’t be so many ranks??
Thx!
First, I know few scouts that finish T21 in a year. 18 months is about as fast as I've seen, with two years more typical. Second, forget the whole school grade thing, and don't plan this out that way. Let this just proceed at the rate of your son, not at some kind of schedule. The first 4 ranks are, IMHO, the second hardest part of Scouting. (hardest, of course, being Life to Eagle).
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1 hour ago, 2275 said:
My son has decided to be on camp staff. His scoutmaster gave it to me that he should spend the week with the troop instead of being on staff. He essentially was inferring my son was being selfish. He said that being on staff was not an excuse to miss camp (but said it was ok if the scout had another commitment such as sports camp or studying for the SAT. Thoughts?
Unless your son is SPL, the SM is out of line. If your son is SPL, then he needs to make sure the ASPL is ready for it, and he should remain on staff.
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On 6/23/2019 at 11:16 PM, EagleDad79 said:
We have a scenario where our current CM is holding on to that title as a trophy and using it less as a way to promote Scouting. Some of the issues have been not attending Scout activities, not leading a solid Pack program(Pack meetings), chasing away good families who ask questions, not reliably providing financial reports and just basically holding the whole Pack tightly in the CM's hand.
In asking the CM to step down and allow for new leaders to grow and move up with their Scouts, the CM became a bit hysterical and defensive and then began offering up positions(ACM) as a way to try and subdue the request for resignation.
Any suggestions out there on how to help a Pack move forward and replace a CM that quite frankly may have stayed too long?
Thanks
The CM serves at the discretion of the COR. The Pack committee needs to recommend to the COR that the CM be replaced.
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1 hour ago, Natgeo2019 said:
One person/couple maintains it
As Firestone said. It's improper to just have a related couple as admins. it probably fits the letter of the law,though if two admins are involved.
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54 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:
I can not tell you why but our Pack has a different number than the Troop.
I'm sure its somewhere in history. In the case of my CO, I know exactly why the Troop has a different number than the Pack. The Troop with the same number as the Pack was chartered by a different organization than the Pack (maybe at one time they were the same, not sure about the whole history). A group of adults in the CO of the Pack didn't like how the same numbered Troop was being run, and they didn't see that they could change it. They then started their own Troop at the CO with a different Troop Number. The first Troop ended up being disbanded after losing most of their leadership in a YPT incident--a prank war between the Troop leaders and the local camp's aquatics staff, which ended with the troop leaders ductaping the aquatics staff to their bunks. Needless to say, that was an automatic expulsion for all adult leaders involved. The old Troop only had one leader left, and he didn't want to be the Scoutmaster (he ended up starting a Venture Crew for the older Scouts as well as his daughter), so they disbanded. Our Troop took the remaining boys in, but none of the leaders.
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23 hours ago, John-in-KC said:
My two cents on the topic.
Chartered Partner asserts its ownership of the unit with a written mandate to Scouts and Scouters alike:
We will follow BSA policies of no weapons, alcohol, tobacco , vaping materials etc may be possessed by any Scout or Scouter at Boy Scout Reservations
We will follow Camp Whodunit, BSAs policy of an adult supervising administration of medications . Four adults, to provide two pair of two deep leadership, will hold and supervise dispensing of meds per the Scout’s daily schedule.
The leaders of Troop 123 will load for camp the night before departure. During loading, each Scout and Scouters camp box or backpack will be thoroughly checked for unauthorized/illegal materials. This include the handover of medications and dispensing times to leadership. Materials found will be given to the parents, but the
The consequence for possessing the materials above is Parent pick up of their youth at camp, termination of the youths membership, notification of the local council under applicable child abuse law, and handover of the youths’ records in Troop 123 to the family
I wouldn't be a leader for your Troop, sorry to say. That said, it's not as bad as the situation in the OP. At least it's a standard policy and the scouts are aware of it.
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1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:
This coming Thursday I along with a leader from a nearby Pack are meeting with parents of prospective girls to create a new Girl Troop. I am hopeful we have 5 girls, but that will be part of the meeting. What else should we try to cover? I have a New Unit Application for the CO to fill out (although it will be a couple of weeks because the Church is in the process of changing ministers), we have a COR, if its ok with everyone I am willing to be CC, we have at least one committee member from the Boy Troop that has said they will be on our committee. I know we will need to discuss who will be SM. I also picked up a handful of Adult and Youth Applications. Additionally I have been in contact with the DE, so he knows what is going on.
What else do we need to address in this first meeting?
Also, I have been thinking a lot about how the Troop will operate. (I know thats the SM job, but you know...) We will be starting from scratch so there are no Scouts that understand how it works well enough to Youth Lead at this point. Do we in the first 6 months to a year operate as Webelos 3 while at the same time slowly giving them enough rope to take over and lead as the program is designed next year?
I would say no. I would start training them to work as a patrol from the get go.
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1 hour ago, elitts said:
If your school is conducting blanket searches of personal belongings, it's violating the law. A student's rights under the 4th amendment are only bent a little, not waived completely. If the school has made it clear that lockers are NOT personal, they have every right to open and search the lockers whenever they wish. But this right doesn't extend to searching through the contents of any containers (like a purse or backpack) within the locker. So you can go through and find the bag, books, coat and shoes in the locker, but you don't have the right to extend your search to opening and going through the bag inside the locker or turning out the pockets of the coat.
The only way to for a school to gain the right to search the person or personal belongings of a student is if they have a credible suspicion of a threat or risk or crime and the credible threat has to be based upon articulable reasons, not just "They were acting suspicious" or "I had a hunch". And even then, the search has to be reasonable given the suspicion. So if you had a tip that a student had a gun, that wouldn't give a school official the authority to search a student's wallet because there is not reasonable possibility of a gun being inside the wallet.
*edited* Having read more detail further along in the thread after I posted this, I'll amend my statement to differentiate blanket searches of bags during the school day or on mandatory trips, and searches that might be well advertised and voluntary conditions of participation in an extra-curricular activity.
IIRC, DavidCO is at a private school, so in that case they have the right to search. It's not a governmental thing.
31 minutes ago, ParkMan said:I really don't see the connection with school bag/locker searches and a search on a scout trip. School is mandatory and a function of the government. Scouting is voluntary and not organized by the government. They are different.
If I were writing some guidelines on how to search a scouts belongings, it would go something like:
- two adults approach the scout and tell the Scout they have a reason to search the scout' s belongings
- if the Scout objects, an immediate call is made to the parent and the scout goes home.
- if the Scout agrees to the search, it is done in full visibility of the Scout. Any items confiscated are jointly acknowledged.
- items are returned after the event.
- if something is found of grave consequence a phone call is made to the parents and the scout goes home.
The above is very reasonable.
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On 6/21/2019 at 4:05 PM, Pale Horse said:
Nah, chances are they're still clean. Everyone knows Scouts don't change underwear at camp.
Well, most of them are clean.
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On 6/21/2019 at 3:24 PM, David CO said:
I am surprised at the number of people who are shocked at the idea that a scout leader might see their son's underwear. I grew up in the days when many people still dried their laundry outdoors on a clothes line. We would have laughed at the idea of a boy being embarrassed about a scout leader seeing his underwear.
That's not my problem with the routine searches. First, there is accountability. I don't want a scout leader rifling through scouts' stuff without good reason and especially not without a witness. Second, there are the basic trust issues. Unless a scout gives a reason that they can't be trusted, they should be trusted. That's the way I was with my own sons, and I would do no differently with other people's sons. That in no way means I don't think a scout leader (or parent) should never search luggage, just that it shouldn't be a routine thing. It's just basic freedom and liberty. I really don't understand why everybody is surprised at my views.
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On 6/6/2019 at 9:09 AM, FireStone said:
It seems odd to me, though. Especially the photos of girls, after all we've seen and heard about girls being so proud to join and wear the uniform, wouldn't that be an angle the BSA would want to emphasize? I'm not sure there's a better image of the BSA being fully open to girls than a photo of a girl in a BSA uniform.
I know marketing materials aren't policy, and neither is the examples set by various folks from National and around the national organization, it just seems to me like another point of conflict between what local folks say and what National shows us by example. I've even heard from a parent in our unit that they are upset that we don't enforce uniform policy more. They force their kid to wear the uniform at every activity and event, and they say we should require all scouts to do the same. That's a tough sell already, when our Pack just spent a bunch of money on nice Class B t-shirts. Now we've got fliers going out to all the schools showing kids in t-shirts, but I'm supposed to enforce stricter uniform standards? If I go by what National is giving us, I would think it should be the opposite, de-emphasizing the uniform.
My former Troop (just former because my boys aged out of it) had Activity shirts, and most boys wore them under their field uniform shirts. They wore the Field Uniform every meeting and to and while travelling. If a meeting was going to have a game involving running, etc., most scouts took of their field uniform shirts and were just in their activity shirts.
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14 minutes ago, David CO said:
Isn't that a little extreme?
Not in my opinion. I was flabbergasted to read that in other parts of the country, kids' luggage is regularly searched. I agree it's the right of the school/organization to do so, I just don't think it sends a good message to the kids, and yes, it is a sign of a very authoritarian government/organization, IMHO.
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Lost Our Pack Leader
in Issues & Politics
Posted
Well, the Webelos going to Boy Scouts is a Boy Scout issue. Has the troop not contacted y'all?