ParkMan

If this is what it is, it's a really strange way to do this. Have the people who write the rules make a rule that units cannot work together. I can respect that the rules people got carried away here and made this rule thinking that units were trying to hold shadow camporees to get around the new short term camping rules. In the process they went too far and suggested that units cannot work together anymore. In @RichardB's statement you can see a misalignment on what we're talking about here. My gut tells me that this is one of those times that the people in Texas don't really under

Troops have had joint activities as long as there has been Scouting. A Scoutmaster has a really fun event his/her troop enjoys. That Scoutmaster invites a local troop or two to join them for the weekend. I've seen this happen in Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA alike. No-one is trying to organize shadow district/council events. It's just volunteers smartly working together to bring more fun to youth. In 100 years I never would have imagined going to the rules to see if Troop A is allowed to work with Troop B & Troop C to plan an event. At the volunteer level this just seems like common

Uh. Not trying to be difficult, but I don't see anything in there that makes a statement about whether two or three units can jointly camp together. This is why this has become something of a topic because no-one is aware of anything that says units cannot jointly plan a weekend together. It's something of Scouting tradition that unit co-operate and work together.

As a council Scouter part of the time, I can say that this isn't something anyone is concerned with. Troops participate in district/council programming based on the quality of the programming. A council summer camp is not worried that some units will get together and make their own summer camp. If they were worried about competition and wanted to setup a monopoly they would prohibit out of council summer camps which are a significantly larger reality. This is just about an overzealous risk management effort.

Fine. I think this can end this discussion.

EDIT: @David CO - thanks for the comments. I'm happy to stipulate that you are correct and I am wrong. I was really just annoyed with the continual piling on of people on the BSA for the actions of 30+ years ago. I think abuse is reprehensible of course. I am just dismayed with how this has unfolded. My kids, my grandkids, and other get to suffer because of actions of those many years before. I had nothing to do with any of this and am confused why people who started well before me got to destroy and organization that I came to join many years later. That said - I really ha

I do not doubt that the rules setup today shield the government from inaction here. I am sure you can quote me 1,000 legal cases the show members of the government have established laws to protect it from inaction. I'm not attempting to make a legal argument - I'm making a moral and ethical one. Our government does all kinds of things proactively to protect us - seat belt laws, approving drugs for use, working to prevent the abuse of drugs. There is a whole industry around federal rule making. Clearly government recognizes a role in being proactive. Why are set belt laws worth of gov

But these people are not solely victims of a private company. The state and federal governments were aware that more than zero adults participating in the programs of the BSA had abused children. Just as the BSA had developed lists to track those cases, so too the governments had legal proceedings and at least records of allegations of abuse. That the individual states and federal government did not launch aggressive investigations nor shutdown Scouting and other youth organizations clearly demonstrates a willingness to allow youth to be abused. That is reprehensible and the governments cl

I'm terribly sorry to hear about the loss of the troop. Just reminds us all of how important developing a strong troop leadership team really is.

I was wondering about that too. After two reads, I found the quote: Sounds like their council shooting sports committee approved it.

I agree! I found a similar strategy has worked for us too. Well written. A few comments: On delegation - we've found that a good strategy is in someone's first year as a volunteer recruit them to do specifics tasks or own a small role in the troop. Year two, give them larger role to take on - ASM of new scouts or ASM of troop guides - something like that. Then 1st assistant ASM. Then, a year or two later SM. The same is true for Committee positions. Don't recruit the new parent to be Pack Committee Chair or Troop Advancement Chair. I've also learned never try to recruit someo

DISLAIMER: abuse is a horrible, reprehensible act and those people who abuse kids should be punished to the furthest extent of the law. Proposal: As this in part was a country wide issue, in addition to shutting down the BSA and selling it to settle claims, I lobby for a special tax fund to pay each victim of child abuse $25,000,000 per incident. Everyone in the country knew that child abuse was happening. That the government did not shut down all youth serving organizations that reported an incidence of abuse was clearly a sign that we were not doing enough as a country. Our country

That quote just made my day!

In my experience the biggest obstacles to succession planning are: Scoutmasters/Cubmasters who do too much - they don't delegate which makes the job appear huge. Someone who isn't looking for a 20 hour a week job isn't going to sign-up when the current SM/CM is doing that much. Delegate, delegate, delegate. Make sure you don't need a Scoutmaster to keep functioning before you go find a new one. Troops/Packs without sufficient adult support - similar reason. When the SM/CM realizes that other adults are not their to support them, they don't want to take the job on. Lack of

OK - wasn't sure what you meant. Yes, these threads do often get to be more than discussing policy implications. For certain. For what it's worth, I think you've skipped a stop between: "Start with a random topic. Talk about that for a page or two." and "Move off onto iterating between what was done wrong years ago and what should be done in the future". That step is start complaining about various groups and Scouting as a whole today. If I look at this thread, we started with a pretty normal set of questions about Wood Badge. Then, after the course it turned into complaints about th

Wonderfully said. I was writing a post, hit reply and saw yours. You said it much more artfully than I did. I feel like this is exactly the kind of issues we faced. Your post reminded me of a period where we have two Webelos dens of the same age in our pack. One run by a very organized set of parents. The other by a parent with a ton of outdoor experience. My son was in this fellow's den. One month we decided to hold a joint den camp out for the boys at that level. In preparation the other den had all kinds of plans and schedules. The den leader surveyed the site and was very wel

Thank you for the wonderfully constructed thoughts on this. How much do you think this is about Scouters simply not having something that they can emulate? What I noticed in our Troop was a general lack of understanding of how patrol method and a youth led troop functions. This is saying a lot in a troop with 30+ volunteers and 75+ Scouts. I like to think we were not adult led, but yet as I as Committee Chair looked around I could tell there was too much adult decision making and interference. I think in our case it really was lack of knowledge. What, for example, should a PLC d

First - just gotta say that I loved your post. Great explanation. Isn't a big part of the issue in Scouting today that youth led is so vaguely defined and it's benefits are so difficult to comprehend? Scouters are often quick to criticize adults for jumping in - but it's hard for them not to. It's not that adults really want neat and clean - it's that they see the messy and recognize that there are 30 scouts all milling about because of it. They see boring troop meetings because the PLC doesn't know how to make them engaging. They see lackluster campouts that may or may not happen be

I believe you're hitting on some core questions about what is Scouting and why is it the program that it is. If we go back the core idea "game with a purpose", then we need to define what our purpose is. Today the purpose is captured in the aims of Scouting and the game is captured in the methods of Scouting. I think it's fine to take a big step back and ask ourselves: is our purpose correct for today? is our game still correct to best achieve the purpose today? Where I think you have to be careful is when you start thinking of just the fun and focusing only on the fun out o

Thanks for clarifying. I see what you are saying. One of the unique characteristics that I have noticed about the Scouting community is that we have volunteers who work at all kinds of levels of abstraction. Scoutmasters/ASMs/Cubmasters/den Leaders who work directly with kids. Committee members who focus on mechanics often more than they do working with kids. District and council volunteers whose roles requires them to focus more on supporting unit leaders than they do on directly working with youth. I, for example, am a long time pack & troop volunteer who recognized that our di

I recognize that what I am suggesting is very difficult. I think it's probably harder to do than picking a side. Further, I've got no doubt that the BSA would make mistakes in trying to achieve that goal. Yet, I think the payoff is great if we can accomplish it. I think of it like Scouting being the Switzerland of countries. We are neutral and want to be neutral. We want to help kids have fun and develop into outstanding adults. We believe in providing a framework and coaching that adults can use with the kids in their communities toward those goals. The politics of those communiti

You say potato, I say potato. That's a distinction without a difference. If the new standard for youth organizations is an organized YPT program, a monitoring and compliance system backed by professionals, and enough liability insurance to protect from lawsuits, then many organizations who have some youth programming today should follow the lead of the NMRA. Youth sports leagues, youth groups, 4H, FFA, smaller Scouting groups, etc. should be prepared to all organize BSA quality YPT programs and maintain hundreds of millions in liability insurance. How a local town rec league will do th

Are you saying that because adults are discussing the policy implications of Scouting programming that those same people don't want Scouting to be fun for youth?

A very, very sad development. Makes me wonder what the right level of protection is for an organization like the NMRA to provide. They raise a very good question. On a different note - I wonder if the BSA should work with them to transfer this program under the BSA? We don't need rail road Scouting, but I do wonder if there could be some sort of council organized activity featuring rail roading that the BSA could pick up here. A way for the BSA to provide more value to it's members.

Understood, but that's where Scouting needs to learn it's lesson. Scouting today expressly forbids Scouts from getting involved directly in politics. It should learn it's lesson and really strive to assume a non-political position. I think it's achievable if the BSA is explicit in saying: Scouting wants to focus on helping youth to grow and develop. Scouting's approach is to provide program materials which can be utilized by local units sponsored by individual local organizations such as churches, schools, and civic organizations. Scouting will look to those local institutions t