Padre

(04-28) 15:55 PDT NEWPORT BEACH, Calif. (AP) --

A recreational diver forgotten at sea by a boat crew drifted five hours in the ocean and prayed "God, I don't want to die" before a teenager aboard a century-old tall ship spotted him and fellow Boy Scouts pulled him aboard.

Dan Carlock, 45, was left in the ocean by his scuba diving group Sunday and drifted for hours about seven miles offshore. He noted the time of day on his small, waterproof writing slate and took photographs of himself to document that he'd made it to the surface.

And he worried about how his parents would react to his death.

"God, I don't want to die," he prayed. "I want to be saved. I need your help."

Carlock recalled his Boy Scout survival manual: Stay calm. Think methodically.

The spacecraft engineer for Boeing Satellite Systems and three dive buddies entered the water at about 8:45 a.m. Sunday, but Carlock had problems equalizing the pressure in his ears and he fell behind. He tried following his partners' bubbles, but he lost them.

He decided to end the dive after 15 minutes, but he was 400 feet down current from an oil platform where the boat was anchored. He blew his whistle to attract attention.

"I figured when the dive was over they would realize I was missing and come looking for me," Carlock said.

But they never came. The boat left and headed for a shipwreck site six miles southeast of the entrance to the Port of Los Angeles, Coast Guard Petty Officer Collin Croft said.

Five hours later, crew trainee Zack Mayberry, 15, stood watch on the stern of the tall ship Argus, which was full of Boy Scouts returning to Newport Beach from Santa Catalina Island. The ship had changed course because of heavy fog.

Mayberry saw something in the water and grabbed his binoculars: About 150 yards away, Carlock's head was sticking out of the water. Mayberry handed the binoculars to a friend.

"I wanted to make sure my eyes weren't playing tricks on me," Mayberry said.

The friend agreed someone was helpless in the water.

"Man overboard!" they yelled.

Carlock screamed a joyful "Yeah!" and pumped his fists in excitement.

The San Diego Boy Scout troop had drilled the rescue procedure the previous day and the rescue operation began. A small motorboat was sent to pluck Carlock from the sea and he was brought aboard.

Coast Guard officials Tuesday said they were investigating why Carlock was found 11 miles from the dive location where Ocean Adventures Dive Co. of Marina del Rey reported him missing, Croft said.

Sundiver skipper Ray Arntz reported Carlock missing from the second dive location at 12:03 p.m.

The Coast Guard, the recreational diving instructors, Long Beach lifeguards and Los Angeles City Fire Department personnel searched for Carlock near the second dive location until learning of the rescue by Boy Scouts.

Arntz told officials that dive master Zacharias Araneta had accounted for all the divers before leaving the first location, Croft said. Ocean Adventures Dive Co. owner Steve Ladd said he was trying to figuring out what happened.

Croft said he is determining if safety rules were violated.

"The Scouts definitely saved this man's life," Croft said.

2004 Associated Press

Dear Brent,

The only thing you will be missing is time with your family. But if you are looking for the ultimate ego trip into adult scouting then Wood Badge is the place for you. Good luck!

I would never make fun of scout volunteers.

But I dont agree that WB is for everyone. I would never take it based on my experiences with the people that wear beads. I am afraid of the implant they put into you at the course. They all sound alike when they come back. ;-)

Do you write your own stuff?

Bob

I am only making decisions about what is right for me. I dont pretend to know what is right for others. Perhaps you feel differently?

Growing up in a large city during the late 60s and 70s I had the opportunity to see and experience many things. I saw buddies join a group of like minded people, have special experiences and dress alike, grow their hair long, sing funny songs, become enlightened from some type of teachings and put beads around their neck They always told me I didnt get it, that I couldnt understand until I joined this scene. I then could be enlightened by these experiences and then and only then would my opinion count about this scene. I just didnt get it but I saw the results and I had an opinion then too.

Now decades later

I see adults dress alike, join a group of like minded people, sing funny songs, have special bonding experiences, spend time with special teachings, put beads around their necks, think they are enlightened and tell me I dont get it and I should join them before they are willing to count my opinion. I think you guys are having flashbacks!

Colin Powell, I heard he was a great scout, does anyone know? The man has qualities that make him a great role model and leader. I just got back from D.C. and he is impressive as a leader.

Hard to back Carter as a Scoutmaster although I am sure he could of done it but it wouldn't have been fun. Having met the man I always felt he would have been a better Church leader than anything else, deep thinker with high morals and convictions.

Fotoscout,

I certainly respect your opinion on the course and the nature of highly educated scientists. It sounds like we work in similar environments.

My last boss was a PhD in Physics. His first book was about Physics, his next two were about management, they both made it to the bestsellers list and he was voted one of the top executives in the country and also one of the toughest, so much for style! There is always an exception to the rule. I worked for him for ten years and learned a lot about managing people and projects.

The gentlemen I spoke about are good scout leaders in my opinion. But I also thought that way before they took WB. Nothing changed so perhaps there was little value in it for them. They didnt act any differently when they got their beads, it was refreshing.

I believe Koreascouter is on the right track and I would certainly agree that WB is designed for scouting and there are good lessons to learn and skills to gain that are more applicable to scouting than anything else. It is a humble opinion since I have never taken the course.

Andrewcanoe,

They all took the recent course. We are all familiar with business goals since more than 25% of our income and our own performance evaluations, not to mention our continued employment, are tied to our individual, department and division goals as managers.

The comparison is: Send your employee to WB for a week of training or send them to a business leadership course for a week. Our company sends us to a specific course so that we are all getting similar training. In this way we are creating a culture and similar set of values in the company. Very similar to what BSA is trying to accomplish with WB. The comparison is a 40-hour WB course for business leadership or another targeted course. What is the best use of time and money, all costs being equal. You have to pay an employee for something you require them to do.

Back to the comparison, everyone agreed there was value in the WB course but it would not be the better business decision for us. We also thought it better to keep scouting a little more outside of our business environment.

I want to travel on a different tangent for a moment. We are a public company; the employees represent a slice of the overall population. We would have a lawsuit from a shareholder some agency/organization or employee within a week if we started sending employees to WB as a company-training course. I do not believe that we can legally do business with the BSA because of the organizations positions on certain issues. We are a government contractor. I am sure different circumstances exist in smaller firms with regard to training, regulations and accountability to investors and government agencies.

Like I said before do WB and the other course. But do WB on your own time.

I have not taken WB and I am not a fan based on the results I have seen with my spouse and in my district. A good leader attends and comes back a good leader, a bad leader attends and comes back a bad leader that now thinks they are a very good leader. OK, I am biased so I thought I would ask several friends that have taken the WB course and hold Director level positions at my company if they would send their people to WB for leadership training. We all work for a large science based Fortune 500 Company with profits in the billions. All of these folks are men and 2 of the 3 have PhDs in science and one has an MBA, he is also the district commissioner.

To summarize their comments and thoughts: They all felt there was some value from a leadership standpoint but the amount applicable could be covered in a couple of hours with an overhead projector. Their conclusions were that if the leadership class couldnt do better than the WB course for their employees then they most likely would not send them to this leadership class. Most thought that WB was more about the tickets and relationships within the patrol and the overall experience. The information was more applicable to how they function within the district and their troop.

My own inputs would be that you should hope your boss forgets your request before your performance evaluation is written. There must be a reason your boss is requesting you to enhance your leadership skills. Perhaps you should take both the WB and the business leadership courses. Could it hurt?

Bob,

I have been visiting the site for quite a while and continue to get good tips about scouting. When I decided to post some of my concerns I needed to register and now I have gotten different viewpoints on my issues, and I welcome these viewpoints. In the past I was happy to read about the topics and not be active in the discussions. I visited the site to be a well informed parent and, like a lot of parents, only want the best experiences from scouting for my sons.

Your other posting reminded me of our SM when he asked me to take over a den years ago. He said it will take about an hour a month. That is what he tells everyone and we kind of laugh at his answer now. We all know it takes a little more than a hour a month for most troop positions. WB was explained to me as two weekends and a couple of meetings, and that was a long way off from my experience. My wife's ticket items really made her very busy and caused

most of our issues. She was gone a lot more than two weekends camping in the seven months it took her to complete her ticket items, leave Friday home Sunday. Then there were lots of meetings

with the patrol and ticket meetings. Lots of council volunteering. Throw in the normal high level of involvement we have with two troops. Add what my SM calls the "WB Glow" ,which tends to supercharge leaders, and we had non stop scouting action at home. Everything at our house stopped that was not scout related for about 10 months. Thousands of dollars were spent on activities

and gear without my knowledge. We had a huge priority shift with her

involvement in this program that was not negotiated or agreed to up front, but that is more the marital side.

On the scouting side she had lots of people encouraging her and signing her up for more, giving her more opportunities to get involved.

We are in scouting for our sons she was now doing most of her scouting without them! My sons now call the organization "Parent Scouts of America". They have asked her to give them a break from scouting. Since summer camp, we are now on that break.

I too am that spouse that packs the gear fills the gas tank gets everything ready and writes the checks. And I have been on most of our campouts.

I was thinking my experiences unique until other WB's told me of similar family issues and strains. To be fair many others have said it was no big deal at home. Is my council that different? I wish some of these "WB friends" would of told us more before she signed up. But I do understand that she got into this more than most other adults and it would be difficult to predict something like this happening to a person.

Her actions in the program created our family's experience. Those little beads do not represent a positive experience for me. The cost was too high for me to feel good about anything to do with Woodbadge.

Now don't jump to far with your conculsions. And don't get too defensive.

My point was that it seems that this course puts a lot of strain on families and marriages. I have heard it over and over from men and women and our SM is aware of this problem. Is it really necessary and can we do something to make sure that this does not happen? Is someone looking into this problem? It does not seem like a small problem to me. Perhaps you are just not in a frame of mind or position that allows you to see the problem.

Congratulations, if it is what you and your family want. I am not a fan of this training.

My wife went through the course with eight people in her patrol, two women and six men. I think four will finish maybe five. One(man) was forced to drop out after a couple of months by his wife due to the stress the course was causing at home. Two(men) don't seem to be moving forward with ticket items. Four (1 woman,my wife and 3 men) will get their beads in Oct. And one (woman) might finish but later. Of the four that will finish in Oct. two have been through extreme maritial and family problems due to the course and two seem to be going through without any outward problems at home. Interesting that these two were the oldest in the group.

My wife is the leader of the patrol, calls the meetings etc. She was asked back to teach the course. She has decided to stay married instead and declinced the invitation. I have quit scouts and put away the uniform. The course has caused extreme problems at home and I have heard this from other couples. Is this good for the family? I don't know if I or my sons will attend her ceremony, yes they hate it too.

What are you teaching?

As my father used to say "You can't have your cake and eat it too".

We want to determine our memebership, we need to live with our decisions. BSA leadership/membership needs to adust their thinking to current (legal, Political) times or learn to live with the consequences of their decisions. It is going to get worse if we stay this course, get ready.

On the other hand, I do not donate to the United Way, I give direct to the organizations that I am interested in supporting. Most parents I talk with do the same, easy work around.

Human Resources (20+ years) Executive with a Fortune 500 company. Past Board member of several national affirmative action college organizations and past member of several major University Boards helping to develop Educational Partnerships with industry. Part time instructor in behavioral sciences, mostly taught in a corporate setting.

Not in a scouting position at this time. Just an active and concerned dad.

Hi Bob,

I have been considering taking more training but I have also been considering leaving the program all together. And it is because of the scout ways and their dogma. Your comments are a good example. I find things too defined around all things scouting and the thinking a little narrow. If I disagree with something it is explained away that I just don't understand the issue.

Consider this: The school system in this country, that has millions of children attending, hundreds of years of existence, and thousands of experts on child development. They promote children from grade to grade kind of like we do in scouts with ranks. Age is a consideration in the school system but not the only one. You don't get into the 7th grade just because you are 12 but because you are 12 and you are READY. You can be Eagle at 13 or 18 and it is OK if you did the work and you are ready to be Eagle.

Teachers spend years preparing to teach our children, in most cases spend more time during the day with these children than their own and they help the parent decide if their child is ready to promote to the next level. My children go to class with kids that are one or two years older than themselves. These are good kids that were not ready for any number of reasons to track with the average students their age and they do fine hanging with younger kids. Open your thinking up please.

About the 14 year old with a razor, the point was that not all boys start shaving at 14.

Thanks for your reply and your point is well taken about the training. I am not sure the trainer would like someone like me in the class. I don't buy in that easily, I like to challenge.

Bob, you took it a year further than was intended, up to 12 is all I suggested.

I have not taken the training you suggested. But I have taught, at the Graduate School level, courses on Behavioral Sciences. What concerns me is that lots of scouters take everything in scouting as the gospel truth without questioning the content. Everything in scouting is not right for every boy. You will teach me in one weekend what they teach in college over a period of years? Do you take a test at the end of the course to see if the adult student has learned the material? Or that they have learned the concepts? Your answer really concerns me.

With all due respect, I would not hand every 15 year old boy a razor and tell him it is time that he started to shave. It will vary from boy to boy. My father did not sit me down on my 18th birthday and tell me I became a man that day.

All of the answers do not reside in scouting or in scout leader training.

Both my sons went in at 10.5, one was ready and one was not. Perhaps we should base it on height, it would seem just as random. OK not really.

The problem is that scouts are forced to bridge over at a certain age. Why can't this be more flexible. Say that you can stay in Cubs until 12 but you can join Boy Scouts at 10.5. Stop with the forced transition and create a window that parents and sons can choose as appropriate. Every boy and situation is different.

I do want to acknowledge that I received lots of great and several not so great/non-constructive emails. For those of you who took the time to share your knowledge and experiences with me, I truly do thank you. Your honesty is much appreciated.

I post my reply openly and without the intention to bash scouting, WB or OA. But to create some thinking and knowledge about what overdosing can create. Our SM reacted to the problem of my wife's over commitment and the strain on our relationship but it was already too late, most of the damage was done. He and I have not talked about this situation lately but I do belive he feels responsible for being an enabler to the situation and feels very badly.

The stories were from both ends of the spectrum. Some thought it was entirely my problem, not enough scout spirit or just lack of whatever. Let your wife achieve in her own way, join the scouting family and get involved.

At the risk of repeating myself, I should tell those folks that I still pay for every summer camp, campout, uniform, piece of equipment, drop of gas etc that my family uses for scouting. This is my time at work to earn their way and it does get expensive. I have been on every campout for the last 7 years with the exception of summer camps. I have built obstacle courses and shooting ranges. I have been in charge of events /booths and been on staff at different camps. I am not an ASM, my choosing, but I have been a very active parent and volunteer. My goal was to be as close to my kids experience in scouting as possible but not to drive them, only to follow and support them.

I also heard from parents that attribute their divorce to Scouting and Woodbadge. Not because scouting did this to them but because they overdosed on scouting and didnt listen to their spouses. And it was not because their marriages were lacking anything at the time (their opinion), but because they were missing from their marriages and that created problems. One SM confided that he even started a relationship at WB and that finished his marriage. Marriages dont contain peer recognition,cheers, awards, Beads or OA. And they all did it for their families. Everyone would always recruit them because they knew how to get things done, had the resources and skills or just didnt know how to say NO.

I have seen it work for couples that have an equal amount of enthusiasm for scouting and I have seen it work where couples have completely different interests and you never see the spouse at scout activities, male or female. It is going to be different depending on the circumstances and it will probably change over time. We have been married for almost 20 years and it has changed several times.

What IS important is the you agree on what you want from the program, what you can give to the program, and what you give up to be in the program. That is where we went wrong; changes happened very quickly during WB and priorities were not discussed and agreed upon.

Once my wife took WB training my opinion didnt count any longer, I was not as well trained and if I disagreed then I just didnt get it and I needed to go talk with another leader, she always suggests a WB trained leader. She does not always pick the best activities for our sons and I think it is because she no longer listens to them. I am sure she still wants the best for them but now she really knows what is best for them in scouting. My wife concealed her OA commitment from me and I only found out before the tap out because the SM told me to stand near my son in case he needed to cry since he was not getting tapped out but my wife was. This is when I got really hurt. I think our SM felt really bad that I didn't already know that she had signed up but had not told me. She had promised to not take on any more scouting activities that did not involve our family being together. She also indicated that this was such a great honor that she couldn't pass it up and wanted to do her ordeal right away but we needed to cancel our vacation because of the conflict of dates. Well we went on our vaction and she did not have a good time, her sacrifice was too great.

No, I do not blame all my woes on scouting/WB/OA but scouting does NOT make me feel good any longer. It has caused too much conflict in my family. This is about communication, honesty, love and respect. Both the adults and these values have to be present in your marriage. Scouting has just been the vehicle that carried inappropriate behaviors/actions and woodbadge created some of the rationalizations for her. I do not doubt her scout spirit.

We now have professional help for our marriage and it is painful. I no longer attend any scouting activities any more because I do not want to be a negative influence on the program or my sons. This absense is just creating more distance between us and she will not give up scouting. Perhaps I already have an answer about our marriage from her.

I bought a 'Big Agnes" bag that has a pocket that you slip the pad into, and it fits a nice big and thick pad. No more slipping and the bag is cut a little bigger and is still lighter than most. No goose down on the bottom where the pad fits. The pad is the thermal barrier under you because down does not work well when you compress it. Keeps the bag nice and square too.

A scout dad who owns a climbling store showed it to me. I use it and my wife borrowed it and now she has one and about a half a dozen other guys bought one after they saw mine. I am going to buy these for my sons as soon as they can take care of their gear a little better.

This is my first posting but I have asked for advice off line from several of the active memebers. I realize there are many ages and levels of scouts that participate in this forum so I will keep it light.

This is about OA in a way. My Wife was tapped out and my son was not. OA is NOT an Honor for adults so why go in if your son is not in the OA? Bittersweet for me too. He is very qualified as a scout to be in OA but new to his troop. We moved from an inactive troop to a very large active troop last year. She tells we lots of adults go into OA before their sons but we can only find one, the person who nominated her. I talked with the local OA council and he knows of NO parent doing this since he has been the OA leader for the last few years. My son does not regret openly that he was not tapped out but has indicated he is happy because now that he has learned what OA is about he feels he is not ready.

Now my son is signed up for Brownsea training and is scared to go. He has learned about the training and indicates to me he was not aware of the details before he signed up. It seems his mother talked him into this as a great experience that was a must for his scouting experience. I just leaned that she is concealing the details of the training for fear that he won't want to go. I have told him he does not have to go. Why does the training need to be a secret?

I bring this up in this group because my wife's scouting experience has been greatly changed since she went to Woodbadge training. It is really changed her life and is creating a lot of stressful situations in our family. Too much pressure is not good, scouting is about fun and growing up. We have not gone 3 days without a scouting activity in our family since September of 02.

I should also tell this group I have not missed a campout with my sons since they joined as tigers. I have only missed summer camps. I don't think that Woodbadge is about not telling the truth to get the results you want with kids. But she is concealing lots of details about scouting activities to get us into scouting things.

I know this group has a lot of OA Woodbadgers and I am prepared for the heat. I will not share the details but this has become a cult like thing for my wife. We need to leave the program to save our relationship. I think scouting is a good program but a religion it is not.