packsaddle

sctmom, I saw that too and I agree. I used to think that the 'Perry Mason' model was correct; where men murdered for money and women for love. But now money just seems to be all there is for some people. I see a child's face and I simply can't understand how anyone, especially a parent, could not see the same open, vulnerable, loving face that I see.

OGE, I liked that...that Philadelphia Eagle thing. Nice. I am thinking New Orleans Saints. The parents exploited a child during the commission of a crime. I hope a decent relative is able to take over childrearing.

NJ, You're probably rolling your eyes right now. This tower of Babel will likely top 15 floors easily. ScoutParent I want to thank you for choosing a small organization formed more than 5,600 years after the beginning of Judaism to represent the views of all Jews. However, here I want to defend being offensive. I should not think anyone in this thread is surprised that nearly all of us are offended by certain things. Just not the same things. I think this is fine. This issue (TJ) is not about being offensive or offended. It is about fairness and justice, topics on which we continue to di

I have reconsidered the conciliatory way I have approached this issue. The problem of identity theft is very troublesome to me. And after following another thread on recordkeeping, I am a lot more critical of this new policy. Especially if BSA is going to collect and maintain sensitive personal information on the volunteers. After my experience with our troop records and after hearing all the similar experiences elsewhere, how can we trust these ham-handed clods to safeguard our identities where they can't even keep a list of former Eagle scouts?! For anyone paranoid that their name, SS#, b

shemgren, Please clarify. You said that BSA does not allow us to ask for donations. But also that BSA asks for donations. I am seeing a conflict. Am I missing something?

littlebillie, Your comments are some of the reasons that studies of animal behavior are so interesting...and difficult. And also good reason to study chemicals and plants at least part of the time. One way to diminish the confusion is to think in terms of genotypic vs phenotypic expression. We are well on the way to complete genotypic descriptions of many biota (but still far from understanding how it all works). This side is fairly 'hard' in its scientific rigor. We are fairly certain for simple traits (eye color, mid-digital hair, PKU disease) and just a few traits that have behavioral

ScoutNut, The 'cut' I refer to has caused some dissention around our council in the past. There must be some variation from council to council. Our council, for example, told my unit that we could not approach any organization (read local businesses) for charitable contributions that might compete with the council fundraising drive (in other words the council can go begging but we can't). But I am curious. If the CO holds the raffle, is quiet about their intentions, but does intend to fund the trip, the spirit is violated. But BSA, having no clue to their intent, silently approves anyway. B

RobK, "Just because some religion somewhere says a thing is OK, doesn't mean the rest of us should accept it in our organization or society." This would also apply if the "religion somewhere" said a thing was immoral. Your list is interesting, though. I wonder, is it really the same if a god sanctions the killing? Susan Smith wasn't performing a religious ritual, was she? Is there a religion that really approves of cold-blooded murder (excluding human sacrifice in its various forms)?

kwc57, I understand. More than just a few I fear. The trouble with a name is that persons easily apply a name and thereby think they have explained something. Or they apply it to themselves and thereby think they understand something. Both are deceptions in their own way. It may be fun to use the term 'left-wing liberal' in the pejorative or 'bed-wetting conservative' for that matter. But, thus limited, the discussion is fairly superficial. Discussion of ideas is easier and more meaningful if not burdened by this stuff.

NJ, That is a lot more detail than I have ever considered. I would be glad for anyone interested to take a place on our troop committee, we have trouble filling all the slots. Our CO does have a budget line for our troop to cover registration fees for all the volunteer leaders and the chartering fee. But our troop has its own checking account, independent of the CO. For other reasons I have tried to get this moved back to the CO for management because it would actually allow greater access by the troop and, I think, less chance of error (I could be wrong). And donations to the church (earmarke

sctmom, I sympathize. I had a similar experience with my son (special ed and all) but years of effort have paid off. (Some school officials also have some bruised egos.) I have observed other troops that are very intolerant of kids like him. Some of those gravitate to our troop, some just drift away. Sometimes the boy really does need an experience that is outside scouting and there are plenty of alternatives. I include below an intriguing possibility: http://www.congressionalaward.org/congress/about/about_who.htm I think the parents are the best judges in all cases so I never encour

kwc57, Hold back the cavalry for just a bit. I agree with your sentiments. I said 'true' conservative. I see precious few of those out there in the land of 'shock', Coulter included. I suppose 'neutral' is always a reach but I couldn't think of a better term. To me a true conservative wants to conserve personal freedom and civil liberties. Most so-called conservatives seem to want to selectively take those away (from those other people). A true conservative should CONSERVE, whether rights or money or energy or natural resources. The so-called conservative groups we know have corrupted the te

johnsned, Has my memory completely failed me? (don't answer that) I thought we ALREADY consented to this on the old leader application forms.

You can find expert information on concrete composition and behavior at the Geotechnical/Structures Laboratory, one of the research labs for the US Army. They design fortifications, runways, bridges, missile silos, etc. and test them under battlefield conditions. A link below: http://www.wes.army.mil/SL/gsl.html I can give you a name and telephone number if you want.

TJ, If you passed the background check that's all I need to know. Your sexual identity is none of my business (and no-one else's for that matter) but if you care to reveal it that's ok with me. You're welcome at my campfire any time. I do appreciate the sensitivity of those mincing words about all this, though. NJ, I think 15 is a fair estimate. Sagerscout, You ruined me, I'll never think of 'jump the gun' the same way again. RobK, which religions are they that consider murder as good or moral? I don't mean legal executions, but murder in the sense of Charles Manson, Susan Smith

KS, I am not sure I completely agree. If a CO wants to hold a raffle, they are free to do so. If they subsequently choose to budget a large sum for their unit, say, for a trip to Philmont, I think they are still free to do so. I would hope that the boys would do service for the CO but not necessarily in a quid pro quo manner. As I understand it, such raffle could not employ BSA symbols or be advertised as a benefit for BSA unless BSA gave its approval (read, got their cut).

Is there some mystery as to why we are all in agreement that bias exists (most of us anyway)? Hypothetically, if a truly neutral account of events is reported, extreme viewpoints all would consider this truly neutral position to be biased against them. Everyone would perceive bias (just not in the same directions), we're so vain. The media make most of their income from advertising. They sell their one greatest resource...the listeners (readers, watchers)...to the advertisers (it's the advertisers that try to sell us those widgets). For good ratings, the media must attract US. If there is a

le Voyageur, to your original question I would say 'no', largely for the reasons Rooster mentions. But Rooster, one thing you said brought back a vivid memory,"...those folks and their supporters who would force their will on private organizations..." In a similar situation longer ago than I like to admit, my minister and I worked on God and Country for long hours each week for a couple of years. He was in the midst of a crisis and he confided his pain to me. And I learned then to appreciate the struggle for truth. He alone at our church (Presbyterian) was in support of desegregation. He stuck

imascouter, I am saddened to hear that my experience with BSA recordkeeping is not an isolated one. I recently had several 'scares' with Eagle candidates whose records had 'disappeared' or 'evolved' in the council records (Larry, Moe, and Curly must work there somewhere). I scrambled to produce the advancement forms that we fill out at each board of review. The council told me that THAT was the official record (take note, Eagle69). Luckily, I was able to reconstruct their records. My troop uses the blue cards but the council uses poor photocopies of handwritten requirement sheets at the summer

Conspiracies? Hitler youth? Twilight Zone? What a great way to avoid eBay! I for one am a little surprised that this is an issue. I was under the impression that the wording of the application I signed years ago allowed BSA or the chartering organization to do pretty much what they pleased for background checks. Was I wrong? And for years I have been under the impression given me by our council that the checks were the responsibility of the chartering organization. Ours did this at least 4 years back as part of their own checks for their non-BSA youth volunteers. But they produced their

Ok Rooster, I'll back off. I am in agreement with your feelings on what NAMBLA represents. Sadly, if they disbanded it would not eliminate what they represent, only the organization. I see tremendous good in BSA programs and that is why I came to aid a troop in need of leadership. I just think BSA is wrong to try to stifle opposition in a manner that affects the boys and in a way I think does not live up to the principles of our Constitution. I admit that I can put people off sometimes...I refer you to my namesake: http://troyb.com/photo/gallery/new_00007220.htm A very long time ago, I s

Thanks for clarification Rooster and OGE, (by the way OGE, I never REALLY thought you were Bob White). And the assertion that someone in this forum would put their own spin on something...Nooooo! I wouldn't apply the term 'Pharisee' to anyone on the volunteer side. And BSA leadership, well they're really just wannabees when it comes to Phariseedom.

Rooster, sheesh, didn't you read the last sentence? As for banging, I don't understand WHAT you're blathering about. BSA adopts, members are dictated to. As for noble fights, if someone is willing to stand up for what they honestly believe, as far as I am concerned that is noble even if they are likely not to prevail. I'm here for the boys and while I'm here I'll exercise my voice. If that bothers you or anyone else, that's just too bad. And the "As an accused "right wing conspirator"" thing...what? The whole world is not out to get you. It's not all about YOU. KWC, Are you saying that

It is pointless to argue what is or is not 'natural'. The problem with the concept of nature is that it means so many different things to different persons and in different contexts. One dictionary definition defines nature as, "the material world and its phenomena". I found this is more than one dictionary. Another defines, "the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing." Good grief! And later, "the external world in its entirety." These are from several different dictionaries, all Webster's. This all-encompassing definition begs the question, 'Then what, if anything, is u

Wow, my eyes deceived me again. Rooster, I think I read that you thought joining BSA was like joining a Christian church. Let's see, "Also, since the BSA's policies are fairly well known (blah, blah, blah), I think it is disingenuous to join their organization (blah, blah, blah) and then trying to inspire a revolt to change their values. It's like joining a Christian church and then trying to convince its members that Jesus was not the Messiah." Yes, you did! You said that today, joining BSA is like joining a Christian church. Anyone else catch this? By the way, I mentioned to my kids that som