Old_OX_Eagle83

The answer to this one varies from troop to troop. Some will say patrols should be constant for the life span of a troop, others will say the experience gained in forming a patrol is essential for scouts to understand the patrol method. For my part, I think both sides are correct; my answer is as follows:

1. First year scouts go in a first year scout patrol, where they go through the experience of forming a patrol, and all else that leads up to performing as a team.

2. Venture patrols (patrols for scouts first class and up) continue unbroken

3. All patrols may make a name change once a year (new scouts must do so following crossover)

4. All patrols use patrol jobs

5. Patrols are kept balanced by assigning scouts graduating from the new scout patrol (upon attainment of first class). Scout assignment is based on not only numbers of scouts in each patrol, but also the number of active scouts, and the scout's personality.

6. Although traditional patrols consist of eight scouts, recognizing scouts participate in other activities and may not always be available, I suggest 10-12 members per patrol.

As far as the crew members question, this isn't the crew, split them up.

Sit down with your training chair, using the requirements about you should be able to fill out the appropriate work sheets. Do pay close attention to prohibitions against double dipping on time for awards.

The changes in the Venturing in the long run can only hurt the program' date=' because National still has not figured out how to deliver an effective and exciting program for high school age youth. Working with Venturing for the past 15 years and maintaining a crew of now 100 members the Venturing leaders in our council both adult and youth HAVE figured out what you need to do and how to do it the right way. All of the crews have members from adjoining councils whose Venturing crews are disappearing faster than their boy scout troops. Venturing is NOT about rank or how many badges you earn and never has been[/quote']

 

I agree that "Venturing is NOT about rank or how many badges you earn and never has been", but will point out that neither is Boy Scouts.

 

The biggest problem I see with crews, even those touted as being "successful crews", is that they are simply adventure clubs, and have lost all sense of the purposes goals of the program. Fun adventures are a tool used to create an environment where the programs goals can be accomplished.

[h=2]Goals[/h] Young adults involved in Venturing will:

• Learn to make ethical choices over their lifetimes by instilling the values in the Venturing Oath and Code.
  
• Experience a program that is fun and full of challenge and adventure.
  
• Become a skilled training and program resource for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and other groups.
  
• Acquire skills in the areas of high adventure, sports, arts and hobbies, religious life, or Sea Scouting.
  
• Experience positive leadership from adult and youth leaders and be given opportunities to take on leadership roles.
  
• Have a chance to learn and grow in a supportive, caring, and fun environment
  

 

Or, to put it in a more Scoutlike way, some people might have legitimate concerns about it. But I think those need to wait until we see the actual requirement.

Well said.

As I read things this should be as sample as:

SM: "Do you understand that Duty to God, as a key part of the Scout Oath, is an important part of Scout Spirit?"

Scout: "Yes sir"

SM: "Are you meeting the expectations of your parents regarding your Duty to God?"

Scout: "Yes sir"

SM: "Would your parents agree that your fulfilling you Duty to God?"

Scout: "Yes sir"

SM: "You're a good scout, you know that obedient and reverent are important points of the Scout Law". Remember to seek spiritual guidance from your parents, and the religious leaders they choose for you.

SM: "Yes sir"

I honestly don't like this change in focus, as it's not our duty to instruct in faith, but rather to encourage each scout to follow the tenements of the faith chosen by their parent of guardian. However, lets see what final shape it takes. As I've pointed out, "Duty to God" is already a part of "Scout Spirit"; will this actually be a change, or just a different way of presenting the existing program?

Unless your talking week long camp, where you drag and drop, send the cot the way of the old tent.

I like tarp camping, but don't always do it the same way; I use what nature provides.

A few things to keep in mind:

1. Water runs down ropes, and tarps; have all edges pointed downward.

2. You don't have a floor, and water will migrate under you; use a ground cloth.

3. You're open air, which is nice, but check your spot carefully for ant hills, poison ivy, ect

My default tarp rig is my hiking stave, the ten feet of rope I carry at my waist (daisy chained), a 6x10 camo tarp, and two lightweight aluminum stakes (optional).

I forgot, a painters drop cloth for the ground, and a low end pool raft ($3.00 at Wal-Mart) to sleep on.

You have the correct attitude; keep learning from your experiences, and keep improving things. What youth officers do you have, they should be central to all of this?

What to bring to an Ordeal? Simple - "The ten essentials", ground cloth, sleeping bag, uniform, and work gloves. The candidates may want other things for the second night, these can be locked in a vehicle until after the ordeal ceremony.

King, have your Elangamats break them into manageable groups, and go to different parts of camp where they can be spaced out away from each other. A night alone on your ground sheet under the stars is a key part of the ordeal.

There's no one answer to when to cross over. The pack at our charter org crosses at Blue and Gold, others in the area cross anywhere from January through March.

As SM of a troop that drew scouts from several packs the varied crossover dates drove me nuts.

LeCaster,

" I trust my Junior Assistant Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters to take care of the "testing" portion of this before signing off the requirements in the boy's handbook."

Shouldn't this be: I trust my Patrol Leaders and Guide, under the supervision of my Junior Assistant Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters, to take care of the "testing" portion of this before signing off the requirements in the boy's handbook.

Start directing concerns (complaints) to the committee, and focus and having fun putting on a program for kids. I'd let the committee know your doing this, and suggest they make a rule to only discuss non-safety concerns in person, at committee meetings. I think you can see the possibilities in this

The short answer is absolutely!

However, make sure the recognition is either non-uniform, like something for a stave or pack, or goes on the temp pocket.

Our troop often meets when school's out. We meet at a Catholic Church, and respect all days of observance for the charter org, choosing not to meet on those dates. As far as school holidays, they're optional meeting nights, if there are at least two scouts and two leaders who will attend, we have a meeting.

With regret nearly all schools in the area are on a balanced calendar now, and we've found the seasonal breaks are ideal for events, as are extended weekends, such as Memorial Day, and Labor Day.

Our crew meets on Sundays, between services, and has found this also works well. The members now attend more services as well; they're already at the church after all.

My point is non-traditional solutions are worth exploring.

You can do it, but that's a pretty heavy load.

It's been said that Troops come in different flavors ... this one sounds like sour grapes

Our Lodge just had an induction weekend, as the event's advisor I was one of the last off the property. After locking-up a cabin, feeling the first breeze of fall, I sat down on a picnic table under a massive tulip poplar. As I watched a fox move through the tall grass across the field I became sad, because I realized what so many attendees had missed out on.

Assuredly I would have never had this experience if my phone had not been turned off. The scouting program can't be presented through the lens of a projector in an air conditioned hall.

Stosh' date=' you have what, 5 scouts? If a troop can't do boy run with 300 ft separation, then what's the point. Scouts certainly don't know the difference. You have always been anti parents on camp outs since you been here. Yes I find that strange. That is a wrong attitude in this day and age. Just look at OA as the model that had to change when they were accused of being a secrete program. It's impractical to expect a troop to move 50 scouts around with all ASMs. It's even more impractical to say no to parents who want to see the program in action. In fact, it is suspicious. That's a different situation from helicopter parents and adults wanting to play Boy Scouts. If you can't run a boy run program with parents in the area, then maybe you aren't as good as you are always bragging to be. Barry[/quote']

 

The OA had to change, what version of alternate history did this come from. Let me quash several myths that drive me nuts:

 

1. The OA was never actually secret, it project an image of mystery that appeals to the youth.

2. The often misunderstood statement about the OA not being a secret society, wasn't a statement of change, it was an explanation of things as they were, and are.

3.. Parents, or other parties interested for appropriate reasons, have always been allowed to view ceremonies, if they insisted after being given a full explanation, and being given access to materials that laid out the ceremony in question.

4. Our policy, as handed down from national, is "ceremonies are to be safeguarded, and are not intended to be viewed by non-members". This is true to this day, Ray Capp, the National Chairman, answered this question, yet again just a few weeks ago:

Q. Hi Ray,

I would like to know if parents / non-scouters are allowed at the Ordeal Ceremony?

Bruce

A. Bruce:

Thanks for your question. If you are wondering about this, maybe some others are, as well. The decision as to whether parents or non-members may attend the ceremonies is ultimately up to the Scout Executive, as the Supreme Chief of the Fire. However, our expectation, as stated in the OA Handbook, is that parents not attend the ceremonies. The ceremonies are open to current members and candidates for membership. Parents (or other non-members) may not be spectators at ceremonies beyond the call-out. Page 30 of the OA Handbook has the relevant text:

"Youth and adult candidates for membership into the Order of the Arrow are introduced to the Order's concepts of servant leadership though a safeguarded ceremonial induction. Nonmembers should not attend the ceremonies.

 

Although the content of the ceremonies is private, the ceremonies were designed to avoid offending any religious belief and have received the approval of religious leaders. The ceremonies are consistent with Scouting traditions and the spirit of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

The Order of the Arrow recognizes and respects the right of any parent, Scout leader, or religious leader to be interested in the content of the ceremony. The lodge adviser, or his designee, may discuss the content of the ceremony and any other issue brought to his attention by one of these interested and responsible adults, with the understanding that the adult will maintain the confidentiality of the ceremony.

 

If after discussing the ceremony with the lodge adviser, the parent, Scout leader, or religious leader continues to have questions about the content of the ceremony, that person will be permitted to read the ceremony text and view the Order's ceremony training DVD. Following this, parents will be in a position to decide whether to allow their son to participate in the ceremony. Candidates may not become members of the Order of the Arrow without completing the pre-Ordeal and Ordeal ceremonies."

In the end, the scout executive has the ability to permit exceptions to this guideline. In that case, the scout executive should be made aware of the steps taken to help the parent understand the induction process and then allow or disallow the request to view the ceremony, articulating that there is to be quiet observation only, without camera, video, or voice recording.

 

Hope this helps clarify how we might approach this question.

Ray

 

Last revised on August 06, 2014

 

There's no question a parent may take their child home whenever they like, and the Chief was correct to say so. However, a large portion of the benefit a scout derives for the Order of the Arrow program is gained from interaction with his peers in other units, and participation in program, not just the ceremonies.

Ideally, the Chief should have requested to speak with the scout (this isn't cubs after all), and encouraged full participation, explaining the benefits.

Interestingly, the Boys' Life Planning Calendar 2015-2014 marks no religious holidays except for Christmas.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/magazine/pdf/331-011.pdf

You make a very good point, and this is something I noticed before. I take issue with Boy's Like only recognizing on faith, which is also evident in it's "Bible Stories". Fair treatment would be nice, major observance days of all faiths should appear on the calendar, and "Bible Stories" should rotate between belief systems, or be removed. Boy's Life consistently fails to set the correct example.

I think it is great Dad is asking about it here! Isn't guidance what adults are supposed to provide? Even parents? The OP is obviously new to this game. His troop could be as bad as mine with a rather passive SPL who would just say "sure' date=' whatever". Where is it written this is the job of the ASPL? Do you know his troop has one? Where is the fast track advancement evidenced? Did Dad say he just crossed over in March? We have several scouts that have been with the troop for 18 months and just got 2nd class. Old Ox your are light years more polite than BD, but are making some of the same assumptions he would with new posters. If he were around right now I know exactly what he would have said, "Back off Helicopter Dad, stop managing your sons scouting career! ....... Just exactly what is Your position in the Troop? .........Stop interfering with the Troop Program! Damn Millennials, can't stand them! ........Shaking my Head!"[/quote']

 

Swimmer, King's correct, and pretty darn funny; I did come across as a bit harsh, and did make some assumptions. I apologize.

 

The key here, and what I have told parents with similar questions, is the youth needs to want, and own this situation. Yes, I assume your in a Troop that's running mostly right, I say mostly because no troops perfect. The scout needs to either bring this up in his up and coming SMC, or go to the "youth" responsible for Den Chiefs in your troop. As a parent, your role is to point your scout in the correct direction, and let him handle this. If and when your scout has issues with this seek direction form the CC.

 

To answer why I say the scout should deal with the ASPL, that's because the SPL is directly responsible for the ASPL, PL's, and Guide only (found in the SM's Handbook, Senior Patrol Leaders Handbook, and Patrol Leaders Handbook). The ASPL is responsible for he balance of the officers (the administrative officers).

 

Where you may be going with here is Den Chiefs aren't actually defined as part of either officer group, and BSA (the last time I checked) recommends they be supervised by an ASM. I don't run, or teach the program that way (which doesn't make me right). In our unit, and the others I've worked with, the ASPL is responsible for Den Chiefs, but they answer to the Den Leader they work with.

 

 

Operating a Chapter is a lot like Operating a Troop, or Crew, that doesn't meet as often.

Looks like the firms name is missing a B and additional S.

I'm surprised this grew out of Wood Badge.

IMHO parents can do one of three things: 1. Volunteer and assume a position of responsibility, like ASM or AC. 2. Drive scouts to events, help at fund raisers, and projects. 3. Support the scouts and unit, while staying out of the way. A "parent patrol" is a bad idea; parents aren't trained.

The SPL, ASPL, JASM, any possibly other officers, depending on troop size and structure, aren't patrol members, and should be the example for the other scouts to follow.

Our troop does have a 85 year tradition of the SM, and his assistants, camping as a patrol on events. The purpose in this is to set an example, and showcase new skills and ideas ... without the use of formal instruction.

I do distinguish what we from what's been suggested in that we are all trained leaders, and only camp as a patrol, not acting as a patrol at meetings, and not directly instructing or providing anything other then a good example of doing things right. If a scout, or patrol, shows interest in a skill we use, camp gadget, or anything we do, we point him to his PL; if the scout is the PL, SPL, or Guide we point him to the Instructor. From time to time an Instructor will ask to be taught something to share, which we gladly do.

This actually falls under a scout is reverent, which includes respecting faiths other than your own.

We're not running out of weekends, lol. District, Council, and National events should not scheduled with respect to all belief systems. Keep in mind that some faith based holidays require specific activities and prohibitions, which makes events ether impossible, or disrespectful, others do not.

Unit events need not be as restrictive, as you need only be concerned with the belief systems of the scouts and leaders in your unit.

BTW, a few posters are confusing domestic holidays with days of religious observance. I've had hikes, camp outs, and fund raisers on Mothers Day, Fathers Day Valentines Day, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and the fourth of July; which are all fine.

As has been stated, IOLS and OWLS are different courses, in part where they differ is in instruction on requirements for Webelo camping as compared to requirements for Boy Scout camping.

OWLS and Baloo are also not the same training, because one is based on Cub event requirements, skills, and supervision, the other Webelo event requirements, skills, and supervision, which are also different.

To say that any of these three courses covers another is line saying Venturing YP covers Boy Scout and Cub Scout YP, which it doesn't. Each training course id distinct for a reason.

Your Webelo Scouts certainly can camp multiple nights with correctly trained leadership and supervision. I

suggest speaking with you training chair, they can help you sort this out.

Swimmer, goo to hear form you, however I have some concerns.

Why are you asking this, and why here? Should the scout not be asking this, and asking this of his ASPL (not SPL for Den Chief)? I'm also concerned about the fast track advancement, remember advancement isn't the purpose of scouting, just one of many methods. In my opinion having a scout be DC for a siblings den is a bad idea; I'd suggest he request another den.

My suggestion is have this young man bring this up during this next SMC, he'll get pointed in the correct direction.

Has this young man taken Den Chief Training?