Oldscout448

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I had to laugh here when I put in my paperwork to be a Scoutmaster about 7 years ago now.  The council registrar told me I had to do IOLS...

Eagle Scout, 15 years camp staff, former ASM/SM for 11 years, 4 x NCS grad (Scoutcraft x 2, Aquatics instuctor, Commissioner), Woodbadge (1992l...would they grandfather me for that requirement?  

Nope. 

OK, so I took IOLS...and was deeply unimpressed.  There were three instructors that were awesome...the rest, I wondered why they were there. The level of knowledge and skills was extremely lacking.  I began to understand why Scouts repeatedly came up short on skills and knowledge.

So, I volunteered to help teach for the next few years.  

I can't match your resume but I was quite unimpressed with most of my IOLS  instruction as well.   I offered to help teach too but was told that my services were not needed.  

InquisitiveScouter covered it well.  I would offer only two other reasons both from personal  experience in the Order.

Firstly, the OA gave me ready access  to SPLs and JASMs in other troops, that I could go to with my problems eg; I have a patrol leader who isn't leading.  Or my troops Scoutmasters minute is taking 15 minutes!  You  guys ever run into this? What worked?  What didn't?  The 20 year old ASMs were especially helpful.

Secondly,  in my little chapter it was simply expected that a scout who wore the white sash would be cheerfully, enthusiastically, serving his patrol and troop.  My older brothers in the order were not at all reluctant  to point this out whenever and wherever needed.  " Hey Allen!  There's work to do, and you wear our lodge flap right? Remember what WWW means?  So either get off your butt and get busy or take it off"   My SM  loved us because we did most of the heavy lifting in the troop.  Obviously  this culture of leadership in serving others won't  appear overnight, but it is what every Arrowman should aspire  to.

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

OMG, you will not believe this...

So, during said storm, the adult staff told the 35 youth participants to stay in their lean-to shelters, which they did.

Guess where the adult and youth staff were???...in the dining hall!!!!  And there was plenty of room for all!!

Guide to Safe Scouting: Camping: Lightning Risk Reduction?  Well, I guess it is just a "guide"...  Hazardous Weather Training??  meh...  BSA Safety Incident Review: Lightning?  That's for others, not me 😈😈 😈😈😈

I'm trying to figure  out what to do with these staffers.  Could we tell Will Smith they made fun of his wife? 

 As others have pointed out there comes a time in most people's lives, when they realize that just because someone is in a position of authority doesn't mean their always right.   I learned this important lesson about age 15.  Before that I probably would have stayed huddled in my lean-to.  Afterwards  I would have been right on the staffs heels into the dining hall.  The only way they would get me to go back out would be to drag me and then hold me there . If I'm going to die in a lighting strike so are they.  ( Guess I wouldn't have done very well in the Army.)

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

We are kindred spirits, then.  Kinda thought we might be

I am glad that climate does not exist where you are.  Please forgive me for drawing that conclusion from your post. No offence  taken

I have heard this phrase repeatedly in the last two lodges I have been a member of, and it is used as a pejorative.

Concur on your Brotherhood observations...sadly. 

In the last 10 or 15 years, I have experienced Lodges becoming more self-centered.  The focus has been on the Lodge's program and what they can do to get Arrowmen to serve that program.  I hope you agree this is a corruption of the purposes of the OA.  I firmly believe this turns a lot of Scouts and Scouters off to Lodge membership. Yes and yes

We could start another post on the topic of remedies for low Lodge participation...oh yeah, a long one

 

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Perhaps many do this because of the culture in your lodge that promotes using terms like "sash and dash"?

I also am appalled...

I ask you to reconsider using such a derogatory phrase toward your fellow Scouts and Arrowmen.  You say you are an "ex" ceremonialist, performer, and coach.   I believe your using this phrase reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Order of the Arrow is about. 

The Order of the Arrow exists to serve a unit's recognition of their Scouts and the promotion of camping within the council.

Purpose

As Scouting’s National Honor Society, our purpose is to:

• Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition.
• Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scout’s experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp.
• Develop leaders with the willingness, character, spirit and ability to advance the activities of their units, our Brotherhood, Scouting, and ultimately our nation.
• Crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others.

There is not one thing at all in there about Scouts having some obligation to serve the lodge.

"An Arrowman’s first duty is to his unit. We must always keep in mind that a primary role of the Order of the Arrow is to strengthen units and help units to succeed, particularly in the outdoor phase of their program."  This is from your Guide for Officers and Advisors. 

The Order of the Arrow is part of a unit program.  If the Scouts of a unit wish to bestow the honor of OA membership on one of their own, neither you nor anyone else in the lodge have diddly squat to say about it.  You are there for them...

If, after election, a Scout wishes not to undertake the Ordeal, that is just fine.  It's his prerogative.

If the Scout wishes to complete his Ordeal, and never do a thing to support the lodge, that is just fine, too.  Lodge membership is always a choice (through paying your annual dues first, then doing whatever else you wish as part of the lodge program.)  After completing the Ordeal, a Scout is then ALWAYS a member of the Order, whether or not he chooses to renew his membership in the lodge.

"I will always regard the ties of brotherhood in the Order of the Arrow as lasting..."  Using the phrase "sash and dash" does not show a spirit of Brotherhood.

In the Wimachtendienk,

Amangiechsin

1984

 

 

 

I truly appreciate your reply. Although it did irk me at the first reading. Why is he telling me things that I know full well? Things that I have both taught and lived? By the third time though perhaps  I'm getting  a clearer picture. I am assuming that you have experienced people using "sash and dash" as an insult. Somehow insinuating that such are less than true Arrowmen.  I had absolutely no such intent  In fact I debated with myself on its use in the previous  post.  But as I actually first heard the phrase on this very forum , don't recall ever hearing it in the lodge and it describes rather accurately the actions of the scouts so I decided to go with it.   It was not intended in any way to insult or belittle the scouts or scouters who never come to any other chapter or lodge function.  It may well be that they are diligently and cheerfully serving in their troop, crew, post, or pack.  If so then I count them as my brother or sister in the Order.

Until recently ( 2013 ?) there was an understanding that a sash with bars meant that the wearer  was serving in the lodge as well as his unit. "so far as I am able" But the brotherhood Obligation is no more so that's gone.   And the depressing fact remains that if no one is willing step up and serve in the chapter,, or lodge the Order will simply wither  and eventually die. 

My sincere apologies to any I offended

Mikemossin Wunachk

2 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I like your reflection. Are you saying maybe the changes and the depth are not for the new members, but for the ones that have heard it all again and again? I like that idea. 

Now that's an interesting idea.  I confess it's one that hadn't occurred to me.  Probably because very few members bother to attend the ceremony unless they have a relative or close friend getting sashed.   I can certainly see these changes fitting in very well in a rededication  ceremony. I understand that some lodges have such on a regular basis.  And props to 'em. 

But  I'm still contending that the Ordeal ceremony's primary and overriding purpose  is for the candidate/ new member.  When  I ask new members, the few who want to do ceremonies mind you, what aspect  of the ceremony they liked or disliked,  by far the most common response is " Well I really didn't understand  them."   We are not serving them well by making it more complex and obtuse.

As a long ago performer and now a coach, I've seen the Pre, Ordeal, and Brotherhood ceremonies hundreds of times maybe a thousand, and I absolutely agree that it takes a long time to fully understand them.  As an ex- ceremonialist I love the new intricacies,  as an advisor who watched the 'sash and dash ' rate go from 75% to 95% in the last few years, I'm appalled.  Our once robust chapter is  being sustained by half a dozen 19 and 20 year olds.  Without a very significant change we won't be here in a couple of years.  Nearby chapters are in even worse condition.  Some seem to exist only on paper. 

Firstly  let me say that I appreciate  the link @acema606 

Next I must say that I've never been so upset by any program change in my  Scouting life, and that includes the ISP of the '70's!  I see how the changes are intended to provide links and hidden clues to the Brotherhood and Vigil ceremonies.  It's  skillfully done.no doubt of it. It's absolutely  dripping with symbolism.  BUT, not one candidate in a hundred will notice them, much less understand them.   The ceremonialists might if they've had a few years of  experience.  No one else. It's not unlike the hidden meaning in the counterclockwise movement  of the principles in the Preordeal ceremony opposed  to the clockwise movement in the Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies.. Except that this change actually detracts  from the ceremony.  The repeated short and simple conversations between the principles as the candidates enter the circle was designed to reinforce the idea that admittance to the Order was something earned not given.  

This flies in the face of the primary purpose of the ceremonies.  They are supposed to be understandable,impressive, memorable  and meaningful to the candidates . Not be a  showpiece for how many references  and allusions can be inserted.  Nor should the candidates be told that they now understand concepts and principles that they probably don't.   On a side note, the Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies are not one ceremony on one night separated by 6 months.  No matter what J. Dunbar says. They're just not. Never have been.  

I've  seen many changes both in the ceremonies and in the Order itself in the last 47 years.  Some good some bad.  But this one is is  ..

Words fail me. Scout like ones anyway.  

35 minutes ago, MattR said:

From my experience, nobody has.

challenge  accepted my friend. 

Anyone  know where I can get a look at them?

23 hours ago, SSScout said:

I often comment to folks that will listen that it is a wonder any of our generation ever grew to adult hood.

Climbing trees? Building lash together (Pioneering !) towers more than 6 feet tall?  Hiking by ourselves?  Taking cars apart WITHOUT ADULT SUPERVISION?  Oh, the humanity....

One winter (!), I think it was in January, we went camping , in the snow, on a local farmer's land. Our Troop was wonderfully divided into four Patrols, on this event, each Patrol was represented, as I remember, by  maybe only three or four boys from each Patrol. Nothing unusual about that, eh?  Here's the thing.... A GIRL SCOUT TROOP camped with us.... in the snow,  20 some degrees all weekend,,,, And we learned from them...  They brought half gallon milk cartons of premade, frozen chili for dinner. Strip off the carton, into the pot, boil it up.  They learned from us.  Fire wood cutting and fire building.... We each learned/earned the respect of the other, as most of us went to the same schools. "You're a Scout?  Wow..."

Would that have been a "Council"  event?  

and whiskey box ovens, buddy burner stoves, sit-upons... We stole shamelessly from the Girl Scouts!  

The only time  I went sorta" Patch Police" and how it turned into a paycheck

About 15 years back a tiny just bridged scout came to his third troop meeting wearing a red wool jacket with a felt bull on the shoulder.  Just like the one I was sporting.  So during a lull in the meeting,  I asked him where he got such a great jacket.  It seemed his uncle had given it to him the previous weekend.  I gently explained  that in scouting patches told a story about what the wearer had done, as well as where he had been,  and the way that patch was positioned said that he had climbed  either Baldy or the Tooth at Philmont.  ( I had to explain what Philmont was) Also the big patch on the back proclaimed him an Eagle.  He asked if I was telling him that he had to take the patches off.  I said that the decision was his but a Scout is Trustworthy.   

Next meeting his jacket was bare.  He marched straight up to  me " I'll wear ''em when I earn 'em!"  

Five years later at a camporee I see him again.  The jacket fits him now.  I look at the patches on it NESA, OA, Jambo, Philmont. " I earned them all"  he said.

"Of  course you did"  

On 3/6/2022 at 6:43 AM, scoutldr said:

Anyone can wear blue jeans to an EBOR.  I saw it all the time as the District Rep to EBORs.  One of the board members, a troop committee member once showed up to an EBOR wearing a sweaty T-shirt, shorts and flip flops.  He had just been cutting the grass.  Is it "proper" or respectful?  Nope.  Did I say anything? Nope.  Adults should be willing to set the example.  Kids observe...and learn.  

 I'm 99% certain I would have found someone else  to sit on that board. Not because it irks me, just out of respect for the scout.

3 hours ago, Navybone said:

Good for you realizing that you cannot meet the requirements of Boy Scouts and stepping aside.  

Being typed I can't hear the tone of your post. Nor can I judge it's intent by your facial expression.  But sure seems  like a cheap shot at an honest man to me.

I missed a dozen summer camps with my sons because I couldn't afford to send both of us while losing a weeks pay.  Sometimes I managed to make it to the closing campfie.

On 1/15/2022 at 9:55 AM, T2Eagle said:

My nephew recently moved to the mountains of Utah, he and his sons' first troop campout was in October --- snowy at 7000 feet.  His not so subtle message to me with the pictures he sent was "hey Uncle T2, you're not the toughest camper in the family any more. "

ETA, although I don't think where he is he'll ever again encounter the 35 degrees and raining that we often see here in the Midwest/Northeast, which I think is really the most miserable of conditions.  

For a decade or so my sons had a friendly competition for the highest mountain climbed.  Mostly though I think they wanted to beat their Dads best of 11,711.  A few years ago I got an photo of a smiling scoutson #1 standing in the snow, next to a sign proclaiming  18,500 ft.   He was somewhere in Nepal.  

" And you ain't seen nothin yet"

On 1/6/2022 at 6:23 PM, yknot said:

That's not the one I was referring to. It's one by elitts that was posted on Monday starting with "First..."  If I could figure out how to cut and paste it here, I would do so for you. 

Although I disagree with the comment you selected as well. Alcohol use disorders are clearly linked to abuse.  I've worked in juvenile diversion. It is a pretty common denominator that cuts across social class and standing among other things.

 

 

My mistake.  Thanks for the correction.

On 12/30/2021 at 11:33 PM, qwazse said:

I’m saying that screening for predators starting with adults who are dependent on alcohol is likely to miss its mark.

The link cannot possibly be causal to any high degree. Alcohol use disorders far outstrip rates of known sexual predation. This means that the preponderance of people who feel it’s their right to have a drink while taking care of youth will likely not be predators.

That is not to say they should be given a pass. 

In the interest of accuracy, here is the statement to which I believe you refer.   @yknot I'm just not seeing what you seem to see.  If anything It's the opposite.

Welcome! 

I hear ya brother,  when I was an SPL many was the time that I wished I could go back to the simple life of the Quartermaster.  I suspect that you are making the same mistake I did in the beginning.  Trying to do it all.  That's what makes patrols and patrol leaders essential in a larger troop.  Properly done the PLs do 90% of the work.  

First question  Where does the SM stand on this?  Your're going to have to work together on this.. Does he, or any of the other adults have experience in a multi patrol troop?  I'm not saying he should do your job for you,  but a wise leader uses all the resources he has.   

My  first recommendation would be to go visit some nearby troops with your ASPL.  See how they operate, decide what might work well in your troop.  What won't. What might work with some modifications.   

The biggest difference in working with Richlite or Micarta is that you're basically cutting hardened glue.  Chisels dull very quickly,  normal hand saws are useless.  I usually work it with carbide tipped blades, hacksaws. files, and silicon carbide sandpaper.  220-320-400 grit.  600-800 if I'm going for a high gloss finish.  

The stuff is nearly indestructible, but as for me give me highly figured Cocobolo or Desert Ironwood every time.

2 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

 

In summation if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem

While I am quite certain that Qwazse doesn't require any help in this "debate",  I find I cannot let your final sentence  pass without comment. It's one that gets used a lot and frankly, It's insulting.  The implication being that unless someone is in favor of your solution to a problem, then they are supporting the problem.   The idea that Qwazse, or any of us on this forum, is supporting or complacent with child abuse of any description goes way beyond the pale.  

Edit: FYI  I have no need whatsoever to list any qualifications (survivor, recovering alcoholic, etc) in order to give voice to my opinions.  Neither does anyone else. 

6 hours ago, SSScout said:

One must take the stand where the responsibility sits.

Many moon ago, I organized and led canoe trips for American Youth Hostels.  Our local club would put an ad in the local outdoorsy publication and young adults would come, pay the rental fee, get some instruction, and happily paddle down a stretch of the Monacacy (also known as the Monotony) river. The requirements were prominently displayed in the ad ::: Swimming ability, no alcohol, expectation of getting wet, etc.  Once,  a pair of young males arrived with a large cooler. When I asked to see the contents, they smilingly opened it to reveal three six packs, on ice. I distinctly remember three,. "Oh, we wanted to be sociable".  When I announced they had a choice, either leave the whole cooler behind, or go home, they cursed and chose to go home.... 

One canoe stayed strapped to the shuttle car.

They didn't need to abandon the cooler. For a small percentage I would  have given it a good home.  

Unless of course the three sixes were Iron City!

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

The usage of alcohol by abusers to entice victims for sexual pleasure/perversion was one of the most common methods used

When I read follow on posts that came after this where only the merits of the brand and other brands are discussed but not one condemnation I wonder if this practice of taking alcohol on campouts by adults still occur.

 

 

It was quite common to see the adults smoking a pipe or having a beer after dinner, when I was a tenderfoot but that was over 50 years ago.   The word went around in the early '80s that we needed to set the best example we possibly could for the scouts.  So no drinking and if you absolutely have to have a smoke, kindly take a hike over the hill a quarter mile away.  I knew a few SMs who ignored these rules and were quietly relieved from duty as a result. One event I'll never forget happened in '79  I had to forcibly take a large knife away from a very drunk 14 year old, who was staggering around slashing at the air, while shouting challenges to all comers  Seems he had discovered some of the staff's beer stash. The camp director gave them 10 minutes to pack and be off the property.  

So yes it happened.   But less and less as time went by..  

On 12/24/2021 at 3:17 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

I agree. I do not believe national will listen based upon their history of ignoring volunteers. Anyone remember the 2015 Eagle Palm Survey they sent out? 18% were Against  and 76% Strongly Against "Instapalms," yet they did it anyway. And there are other polls, where the results were never posted.

Considering the National OA Committee is majority adult, IMHO OA is not a youth run organization. I can't remember what the big controversy was a few years back as old age is getting to me. But I do remember the National OA committee had 60+ members on it ( I want to say 63, but it may have been 66, again old age)and only the National Chief, National Vice Chief, and 1 other youth sat on that committee. The National Vice Chief at the time was from my lodge, and he  refused to talk about the issue when asked. From the body language, tone of voice, and gestures made when asked, he seem ticked off every time the topic came up.

A recent National Chief came  from my lodge.  He wouldn't or more likely couldn't talk either.  I've always wondered exactly what goes on at such high and exulted levels,  guess  I'll  never know.  Oh well, I'm much happier in the woods than in a boardroom

I  feel obliged to point out that mathematically if you cut a corner off a totin chip card, which is a rectangle, the resulting irregular pentagon now has five corners.  As you keep cutting off corner after corner you eventually arrive at a circle which has either no corners or infinite corners.