Oldscout448

In April 2018 I posted about getting a Scouters paycheck when I watched one of 'my' boys, as Meteu, drape an ordeal sash over his younger brothers shoulder, as his older brother,the head eleongomat, looked on, smiling. 

I just watched the same middle brother ( who is the best ceremonalist I've ever seen)  welcome  his younger brother into the circle of the Vigil, in our very secluded ceremony ring, as once again the older brother stood by trying  to look serious, but the smile kept breaking thru. Some scouts who were past members of our ceremories team, drove or flew hundreds of miles to be there.  This time, as guide, I had the privilege of sashing the new Vigil, Who's  name means roughly Proven Worthy. Darn smoke must have gotten in my eyes.  Had to keep wiping 'em.  

This  check I'll keep until my last day.

Just wait until the peach cobbler is ready.

Snowed in after the Ordeal!  I wanna hear this tale.  Pull up a log to our virtual camp fire and pour yourself some coffee. 

The short answer is No, you have every reason to be upset.  So should every other patrol leader in the troop and the scouts in your sons patrol. This may not be be due to personal dislike, sadly some scoutmasters view advancement in rank as the primary gauge of their success and will manipulate things to achieve that goal. 

21 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

When did it switch to SMC, anyway? In olden times it was a Personal Growth Agreement Conference.

That kinda depends on what you consider to be "olden times"  I think it was a SMC until '73 then it became a PGAC.  I'm not sure when it switched back.

On 1/3/2023 at 2:01 PM, fred8033 said:

Link please?  I did not see anything about OA ordeal / regalia changes.  

It would not surprise me though.  It's been discussed many times.  OA ceremonies make many cringe with over-the-line cultural appropriation with caricatures that border on racism.  I know the ceremonies are to honor native american culture, but obviously not everyone agrees with that view.  Sadly, IMHO, it's time to remove native American references from OA.  

"Over the line cultural appropriation"  ok, I'll bite.  Exactly who has given themselves authority to draw that magical line?  Some Berkeley professor who babbles about the critical importance of  tolerance and diverse points of view while demanding that everyone accept and kowtow to his "personal reality"?   It's about time, no it's past time, that such people are told the shut the hell up, we don't care what they think.   

Every native American I've asked ( Huron, Cree, Cherokee, Sioux, Iroquois etc) has had no problem with the OA ceremonies, if they are done in a manner that shows respect and dignity to the Indian people.  Some actually did ceremonies with me in years past. 

" not everyone agrees with that view".  If we are demanding an organization that has a 100% approval rating we are going to be in for a long and disappointing wait.

Frankly, I would rather see the Order disbanded with some semblance of dignity than made into some pseudo moralistic " woke" entity that cheapens its memory.  

If BSA needs a new type of honor society, fine.  Let them find a new name for it.

Speaking of deal breakers, for most of the team members it was the loss of being a part of something special, with a long proud history and traditions. Regalia was a big part of that.  I think it started way back in about 40 years ago when the pre get rewritten and the Ordeal changed from being a test of willing candidates to a make believe self help weekend. One that no one was allowed to fail. Because "hazing". The complete rewrite of the Brotherhood ceremony with the loss of the Brotherhood Obligation which an average 15 year old could easily understand, for some philosophical rambling (however much I may agree with it) was a major contributor as well. The major changes to the beginning and ending of the Ordeal ceremony were the last straw for a lot of our best ceremony guys. 

For my part it's the complete indifference of the chapter and lodge adult leadership to making the Ordeal a meaningful, significant event in the scouts life. They seem to be determined to do things in whatever way is the easiest.  The Friday night ceremony was set up right next to the parking lot so the candidates, and members, didn't have to walk another 100 yards. Rather than have the candidates sleep alone they all got crammed together on the lodge deck for the night. Because it was easier to keep an eye on them that way. I could go on and on.

I've spent many hours staring into campfires pondering these things, reviewing on my mind the things I promised on my honor as a Scout in the Obligations of the Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil. I've done my best to keep them but it's no longer possible to " observe and preserve the traditions of the Order" given the current environment which seems to be actively moving away from them.  So I'm faced with the choice of keeping my oaths or staying in the organization.

7 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I am so sorry. If the situation is anything like mine, I know all the emotions you are going through, and what you are feeling.

 

not unlike loosing a good friend after a long illness.  There is sadness, a feeling of loss but also a sense of relief.

Walking.  

7 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I'm just the OA Advisor for the Council.   The SE is very supportive and helpful with our events, in fact over the past couple of years I've gotten to know him well and consider him a friend.  I am also blessed in that I have a good relationship with all of our professionals including our long time camp ranger who is also a friend.  I realise that I am very fortunate and I wish y'all could have the same relationship.  God Bless and Scout On!

You  are fortunate indeed!  The last time I can remember seeing our SE was at a spring Lodge Fellowship in 2017.  Haven't  seen a DE at a day camp, ordeal, or camporee in even longer.  Glad to hear it's not this bad everywhere.

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

My issue with patches is when using a licensed vendor the patch must be approved by some patch nazi and that$@& never approves the design.  I'm going to find a patch maker who doesn't need approval from the Viermach. 

Which is why our district has gone outlaw for the last 15 years.  Our patches don't have anything that National has registered, but they've big, colorful  there's always enough for all the scouts and we pay less.

In fact I we stopped holding District camporees because Council takes 15% off the top for 'services' . Not sure what these services actually are.  But it did lead to quite a few Godfather jokes. Instead  15 or 20 troops just happen to go camping at the same place on the same weekend.  What a coincidence!  

On 11/19/2022 at 7:20 PM, Armymutt said:

Sounds like our lodge.  We had to cobble together an ordeal team for 150 candidates.  The lodge doesn't emphasize ceremonies.  Instead, it's all about parties during the large gatherings.  Who wants to be a ceremonialist when it means missing out on all the fun?  I tried for almost 2 years to get a team in my chapter, but as the older ones aged out, no one behind them made a serious effort to fill the ranks.

This hits home, we don't really have big parties but no one has joined the ceremony team in three and a half years.  Currently there only  only two left  next spring Ordeal only one.  

I feel like a passenger in a car who has warned  the driver over and over that we are running out of gas.  Now that the car has come to a spluttering halt on the side of the highway, the driver expects me to magically fix it somehow.   So he can keep on driving and ignoring me.

All that's left for me to do is open my door and start walking.  

On 11/18/2022 at 2:25 PM, fred8033 said:

Your outside.  With scouters.  It's not perfect, but celebrate being together and honoring new members.

Actually  I was in the ring working raking, chopping, setting things up with the two retired ceremonialists who came and the three brave guys who volunteered because they saw a need, from 8:30 am -3:50 pm.    The B'hood ceremony started at 4:00

It's  1:30am,  in 14 hours  I head out to an joint Ordeal for four local chapters.  The ceremonies will have to be done by people who have never  done them before, never practiced together,  or even alone because no one knows who has what part.  I will have at best 2-3 hours to work with them before the pre starts. I am honestly dreading this. But until December 31st I'm still the ceremonies advisor for one of the chapters and so I have a duty to do what little I can,  even if my  chapter no longer has a team. 

Prayers  would be much appreciated my brothers.

Walititin Mikemossin Wunachuk

2 hours ago, yknot said:

No it's what I think.  GTA makes a point of saying there should be no retesting -- that if a Scoutmaster has cleared a scout for a BOR then in his or her eyes, the youth has proven themselves ready. If youth are arriving at BORs with issues, that is a Scoutmaster and program problem, not a scout problem to be solved on the back of the scout during a high stress event. In this instance, I think it's odd that the BOR's reaction was punitive toward the scout rather than introspective about themselves. A BOR is essentially confirming rank completion in a scout who has been presented by the scoutmaster. It's not an oral presentation or morals test -- or even a uniform fashion show -- for an extra pass/fail grade. GTA makes that clear, or at least to me. 

There are a few things that caused raised eyebrows.  Such as ' punitive, high stress''and  ' fashion show'. But if yknot is correct in his assessment of the GTA, then the BoR has been reduced to little more than a  ceremonial rubber stamp and we might as well let them go the way of woolen uniforms and canvas tents.

On 10/31/2022 at 1:18 PM, yknot said:

Nowhere in the GTA does is state that a BOR can fail a scout for being nonresponsive in the actual room out of fear of someone on the BOR or stage fright.   

In 20 some years of sitting on  BoR I've declined  to pass two scouts. One had clearly doctored his older brothers blue cards, the other wouldn't or couldn't talk to us. Just hugged himself and cried.  

 So to play devil's advocate here;  if a scout can pass a BoR without responding in any fashion to a single question or comment, why is the scout even there?  

On 10/5/2022 at 1:41 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

Anyone else remember when Scouts sat on BORs for the T-2-1 ranks?

Yup,  sat on quite a few.  It worked very well for my troop mostly because we had a goodly number of scouts stick around until they turned 18.  

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Ok, so answer the questions with definitive answers.  No one said there was no RSO, but one RSO can't do everything.

 

 

not to pile on here,  but if the number of shooters or firearms is to great to monitor then it's the RSO's obligation to reduce it to a manageable level.  

RSOing was the most stressful job I ever had at camp.  Lifeguard was easy by comparison.  

Spent last weekend camping on Treasure Island.  The small overworked underpaid staff has does a marvelous job . The museum is just incredible. But for me the highlight of the weekend was just sitting silently by myself in the ceremony ring.  A lot was hauled off to Summit but there is still something intangible there, a quiet weight of memory, so many years, so many thousands of Obligations taken there, by young trembling boys as well as grizzled old timers.   Closest thing Scouting has to Holy ground.

Just amazing.

While roasting  marshmallows last weekend my grandson told me he wants to be an Eagle Scout like his Dad.  He's almost 6.  It hurts knowing  that it probably won't be possible. It's not the rank that  matters, it's realizing that even if scouts survives it will most likely be vastly diminished . Will Philmot be there?  Jamborees?   The OA?  Sure, the few surviving troops in the area can get together somewhere for a mini camporee,  and the grey hairs can tell  tales of BSA's glory days but that's about all.  So an Eagle he may one day be but it breaks my heart that his scouting trail will be so much poorer than his Dads or mine.

As a one time RSO this is a kick in the gut.

3 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I don't think it had anything to do with uniform issues, but on the day that I saw the scout the OP was upset with the event schedule included an ArrowPride luncheon.  My thought when seeing him was that he would be taking part in that event.  I did see members of his contingent several times during the week, as we were assigned to the same dining hall for meals.  As far as I remember they were ALL in full uniform at dinner.  I even ended up at the same table in the dining hall with that group for lunch midway through the week, and spoke with him briefly.  No one in his group seemed to have any problem with him, so I saw no reason why I should.  It made no sense for me to get upset with how someone I did not know and only spoke to once chose to dress, just like it made no sense for me to be upset with the countless people, youth and adults, who had position patches on their right sleeve instead of the left, or temp patches on their left pocket instead of rank.  Far more important issues in the world and in scouting to worry about.

The visualization I got from the OP was a scout wearing a scout shirt with tights and tutu.  With this combination I do indeed have an issue, enough so that any scout in my troop would as a last resort be sent home, but perhaps based upon your account that wasn't exactly the situation.

1 hour ago, yknot said:

Except if the tights and a tutu were a protest over longstanding issues with uniforms that are not being addressed, then it's a highly appropriate way to draw attention to the problem. It's supposedly a scout led organization and yet no one listens to the scouts. if they are attempting to find ways to be heard, I can only support that. 

A protest?  I don't see any mention or even an implication of such in the OP.    

59 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Oh boy, that's a tough one. Personally, I would not exhaust whatever little capital I have to enforce uniform standards unless someone's appearance is clearly inappropriate. It sounds like these individuals may have missed the mark for the event, but in their minds, it was probably just silly fun. Does their appearance impede your ability to offer a safe and enjoyable program for youth in your area? If the answer is "no," pick a different battle.

I  think the question we should be addressing is what kind of a message does tights and a tutu send, not the safety and enjoyment of the program. As for me I would willingly  spend some capital politely explaining that such attire is inappropriate for the situation.  Just as a field uniform would be at a dance studio.