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Posts posted by NWScouter

  1. Now I come from a place where we have natural air conditioning. Of course we start to complain about the heat when it reaches 75. Shorts are worn by some all year around. My son worked all year round mapping surface water features for the county in shorts.

    If we get a week of snow on the ground we come to a stop. Very rarely do we reach the teens.

    Our natural air conditioning is to head to beaches on Puget Sound in the evening and watch the sunset.

    The camp I went to as Scout and as a scoutmaster took the troop every other year is Parsons on Hood Canal. In the swim area the water rarely gets over 60, and that only in August. It has a pier that goes out 600 ft. The best evening i had there as a scoutmaster was when the temp got up to 90 and we had pier jump. Dropping 25 feet into the cold water cooled one down real fast. By the way Camp Parsons has been an active scout camp since 1917, I was there for the fifth in 67th and hope to be there for one hundredth.


    When we hike in high Cascades, nothing feels better to stick those old tired dogs in a stream or lake fed my the snow fields. After a few minutes you feel nothing. I been up there were the sweat is pouring off during the day and frost on the rainfly in the morning.

  2. It brings back memories. Eight years ago I was on camp staff. Every week we would say good bye at the final flags and the troops would move off to the parking lot to load up and leave.

    Then we would hold a weekly debrief and get the atta boys and oh darns. After the commisioneers told the campsite rangers the results of their inspections, those failing had to go clean up. The Program Director oversaw the cleaning of the staff area. Then we could head out on our 'day' off.

    This week it must a been at least two hour maybe three before I headed down the road. To my suprise I found on 11 year old Scout seated on his gear all alone by the camp gate. His mom hadn't come yet and his troop had left him to wait.

    I don't remember all what happened after that. I think his mother thought the troop was bringing him and the troop thought she was coming, but I knew the camp director had a new topic for his last of the week scoutmasters' meeting.

  3. Years our council have a council wide accident insurance policy but had to give it up. There was a problem with not giving units a choice. So they went back to individual troop policy. They include Mutual of Omaha app with recharter material. Most unit do this, some don't have any but run in to trouble with a scout camp asks for proof. The LDS are self insured, by Salt Lake.

    Years ago I was in the insurance biz for about 5 years. My understanding that for the accident insurance a prospective scout could most likely go to one or two meetings and be covered but if he has been going for 6 months without being registered the company could refuse coverage.

    The matter of liability insurance that the council and national has is different. Accident insurance covers without finding fault, liability insurance has to do when you are (scouts in this case) at fault. This could be concerning injury to a young person in scouting or your little darlin's chopped down a hundred foot fir and destroyed a $250,000 motor home in the next campsite. There may be an issue if lumberjack was not a scout but you as Scouter is in control of him and ergo the BSA is on the hook .

    The BSA stand behind us, because if it didnt we would have a hard time getting chartered partners and adult leaders.


  4. Elections to the Order of the Arrow may be held anytime during the year but only once a year. If you have had it in April you can't have in October but next year you can have another. Many chapters try to have their elections before their camporee to have a bang up call out (not a tap out).

    Call outs can be anywhere, some troops even have them at Court of Honors in order to make an Ordeal Weekend.

    To hold an election you must have 50% of the active Scouts in your troop present. The Scoutmaster must certify that the scouts on the ballot meet the requirements. All scouts present may vote for as many of those scouts as they think worthy. Any scouts that is marked on half the ballots is elected to the OA.

    Your troop has 20 active scouts, 10 need to be there for an election. If there is 14 scouts there, to be elected you have to be on 7 ballots.


    Once you have had an election in the troop then the committee may elect one adult, who needs to meet the same requirements as the scouts. It is assumed any registered adult is first class.



    (This message has been edited by NWScouter)

  5. When I get in to disagreements with good Christians about doctrine (dogma, canon law, tradition, practice) I always cool my self off with reread 1 Corinthians 13, especially verse 12 For know we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we see face to face. Now I know only in part, then I will know fully, even as I have been known fully."

  6. I know Washington state is a little past your hour limit. Troops I have been involved in great hikes in the Olympic National Park High Divide, Low Divide, Ocean Beaches, Mt. Rainier any part of the Wonderland Trail, North Cascade Park Ross Lake canoe and hike, May trails leaded up and down the Pacific Crest Trail. We have had hike heading from the west up and over to Holden Village and Stihekin (Lake Chelan). We have also gone to the Bob Marshall near Flathead Lake in Montana. Bowern Lakes in British Columbia have outfitters that will provide you with canoes so you dont have to haul them up there. My old troop is head up to Skagway, Alaska to do the Chiikoot Pass. The way of the sourdoughs to Gold Rush in Yukon in 1898.

  7. First the alternative requirements rules were changed a few years back from troop committee to district or council advancement committee for First Class and below. This was because troop's were inconstant especially concerning swimming . The rule was for health or safety, but I heard a troop waived the swimming because a scout couldnt swim so if was a safety issue because he would drown(?).

    Be thankful your scout didnt try a couple of years ago when they moved a lot of the Swimming Merit Badge requirements to second and first class.

    I found that a lot of the scouts that had problems with swimming at camp, were use to pool swimming and the lake at camp or the salt water at Hood Canal was the first time out of a pool. They worried about things in the water (leaches, fishes, turtles, duck poop) or they couldnt stand up.

    A troop can help by running a few swimming outings. A great idea for troop meetings in summer when you are missing boys due to out of town family trips. Check with your summer camp some I have attended allow troops to bring their swim checks to camp and they will use them.


  8. FOG, I hope you are pulling our leg with that last post. For if you are not, that post and the second paragraph is the is the very opposite of what I learned and believed in from the day I joined Scouts.


  9. OGE is correct, the only way to be elected to candidate status is by a Scout Troop or Team, Either as Youth under 18 or as an adult by the Committee. While the Scouts may elect many of their peers every year, by rules to long to explain here, the Committee may elect only one registered adult if their troop has held an election. The interesting question I have yet answered if they could elected a female ASM under 21. Also the lodge, council and district may purpose adult candidates too.

    My personal opinion why Venture Crews are not allowed to elect members to OA is some Explorer Posts (before Venturing Crews), when they were allowed to elect, elected female youth members and tried to get them called out. These post were generally ones organized to register female camp staff as they need to register in BSA. In my council and I believe in many other, camp staff are hotbeds of leadership for the lodges.

    (This message has been edited by NWScouter)

  10. The older boy problem has been around since the BSA started. The solution has had many names, Sea Scouts, Air Scouts, Explorers, Leadership Corps, Varsity Patrols, Venture Patrols, Senior Patrol and Rovers. Some in the Scout Troop, some as stand alone. My brothers were fifteen years older than me and in the early fifties they were moved into the Exploring automatically, By the mid sixties, we just stayed in the troop.

    My troop solved the older problem just as we did in the troop I was scoutmaster of in the nineties, provided a program that a scout could grow up in. The crowning experience of the scout year for the older scouts was the week long trek. We did the High Divide in the Olympics, Yosemite, Bob Marshall in Montana, Pacific Crest Trail, Roosevelt Lake, Ross Lake, Bowren Lakes, and climbed Mt. St. Helens, Any scout would by his participation in our monthly outings that could convince the trek leader that he could make it went.

    For those too young they looked forward to going along. So they worked hard on learning those back country skills and building their strength through our monthly outings. These were of varying difficulty. We also just dont go to any old summer camp, so that not did only the younger scouts went, but older ones too. We alternated going to our best council camp with the best ones in Washington, Oregon and Idaho.

    How your scouts organize their program or called their groupings is not important. What is important the it is exiting and varied to draw everyone from the ten and half year old New Scouts to the seventeen year old Eagle.


    Just an aside, I had a DE 10 15 years ago tell of a phone call he got from Exploring Magazine asking if he knew of any High Adventure activities a Post was going to do. He asked what they were looking for and the editor said Oh you know, like a week along the Pacific Crest Trail. The DE replied, Out here thats what scout troops do.


  11. The new scout patrol came with he changes when the Scout handbook of 1989, so it is a fairly new aspect of scouting. The idea was that patrol would last only one year before the now older scout would join an established patrol. The reasons as explained back then was it would easier for the new scout to advance if every one in the patrol was working on the same things and one of the big concerns that there was harassment of the younger scouts if they where split up. Two of the reasons that national found why scouts quit in the first year was the lack of advancement and bullying.

    My personal opinion then and now is that both are taken care of by good program and aware adult and scout leadership. A no tolerance policy of bullying and "grab ass" behavior.

    The new scout patrol also had as example the LDS practice of having their eleven year olds in almost a separate unit. Where they very rarely to do things with the 12 and 13 year old in their troops. They also allow this group only to have three overnights and no summer camp.


  12. I have read this thread for a few weeks now and I'm just wondering where is the father to be?

    Is in or was in the Venturing crew? What should we do with a young man in this situation? Is it differant because it doesn't "show"?

  13. I was just looking in a 1941 Scout Handbook and found in the back uniforms and their prices. How about that campaign hat for $1.95, shirt (ls) $1.60, breeches $1.95, neckerchiefs plain color 50, combination colors 60, slide 10. Outdoor service outfit shirt(ss) $1.25, shorts $1.50, stockings 50, belt 50. I just spent almost $15 with sales tax for a pair of Venturing socks , but then minimum wage back in the 40s was around 50 an hour. I did like the official raincoat, it looks like a trench coat, for $5.95. It was called a bombazine raincoat and the poncho also was bombazine. Anybody know what the heck bombazine was?

  14. The basic method in scouting for delivering the program is the patrol. The primary use of the uniform is to give a unity to the patrol, then the troop and then the BSA. The second use is to display the achievements of the scout and his role in scouting.

  15. I have the greatest problem with the epaulets. The troop that I was scoutmaster for 10 years did a lot of backpacking. When you live the northwest yearly fifty-milers is the rule not the exception. To wear a scout uniform shirt while caring a loaded pack is sure bet to rip off at least the button. We have a terrible time with them when we went to a summer camp that had a three mile hike into the camp on arrival. Also I have not known a scout or scouter, even the most carefully turned out one, to have at least one time shown up with the shoulder loop turned seam up.

  16. Let's see 'fly-by-night religions'. Augsberg Confession (Lutherans) 1530, Church of England (Episcopal) 1500's, Puritains (United Church in Christ-Congregationial) 1500's, Presbyterian (Knox and Calvin) 1500's, oh the new one Methodist, late 1700's. Jewish 2000 + BC, they won't last. Watch what you say these faith groups have been around a long time.

  17. If I remember his argument correctly, it has to do with taking God out of Christian social views. From the communal sharing of Acts to the Anabaptists of the reformation you find the underpinnings. He was speaking of the more pure communism, not the form finally practiced. It had also to do with the philosophers that came out of Christian backgrounds that Marx and Engles built upon. Youre asking me to go back thirty years to that lecture room in Condon Hall. It was the seventies and I was young , working and our now Eagle Scout was on the way, so sometimes Im lucky just to remember the highlights. I dont know were my old notes are and I dont have a copy of Treadgolds book, so I not sure I can give you more and do justice to him.

  18. Here is an example of the not understanding the separation of Church and State. The separation is that the state can not support any religion or give that appearance. It must be also fair in its actions toward all religions. But not that individuals cannot make decisions based on their religion and its beliefs.

    When I look at how my political beliefs have developed over time, I can see the influence of my faith journey, my parents (and maybe a bit of rebellion from them), my Scouting, my friends, and my schooling. To tell anyone to divorce any aspect from their decision making is wrong.

    It also lacks a knowledge of history. For without an acknowledgment of religions role for both good and bad, you cant understand history or the modern world.

    When we remove religion from the teaching of history how do we explain the changes wroth by the expansion of the Christian faith in the first centuries of the Common Era (AD, I am trying to be a little PC). The spread of Islam in the six and seventh century and the resulting crusades. The effect of the conflicts between Muslim and Christian peoples in Spain and the Balkans in years past that influence those areas today. To ignore the reformation of the sixteenth century is to handicap student of their understanding of Modern Europe and the tensions in Northern Ireland for one.

    The great social movements in the United States have had religious underpinning. From the waves of people who have come here to worship as they pleased or to not worship. The abolition of slavery was spearheaded by church groups and also was the defense. Prohibition had its Christian Womens Temperance Union and also the fear of those drunken immigrants (particularly Irish and other Roman Catholics) corrupting our Christian Nation. The progressive era of late nineteenth and early twentieth century came out of the churches with their founding of settlement houses and social programs.

    The peace movements of the twenties and the sixties both had strong religious support. The civil rights movement came directly out of churches as did most of its leadership.

    When we stop discussing and debating these influences on public life out fear of offending any group we lose the ability to understand our world and nation today.

    This was brought home to me when my son was in middle school and his world history text book had no mention of the reformation (my area in my BA). I told him I thought his text was lacking. He went to his honors teacher and told her it what I thought. So I ended up giving a three day session on the reformation. Ever since, this has been a pet rant of mine.

    Just an interesting aside, my professor in my college History of Christianity course (at a large public university) argued that communism was a Christian heresy. Think about that.


  19. This article writer has some serious errors in understanding the constitution. Some of them are down right scary.

    The one that bothers me the most is comment Use the courts or other non-democratic means to impose the minority will on the majority. The Courts in the United States have three purposes: 1) to provide a forum to determine guilt or innocence in a criminal case and fault in a civil case, 2) to interpret the laws as written and 3) to protect the civil rights of the minority from the abuses of the majority. To refer to the courts as non-democratic is a libel against our way of life. When the courts become a captive of the ruling group or the majority we could end up courts like those of Third Reich.


    The writer as Latter Day Saint should remember the discrimination of the early LDS in the settled parts of US that forced them to Utah. He definition of marriage as one of a man and woman, is what drove that discrimination and kept Utah from becoming a state. For it was not until the LDS change their stance on polygamy did Utah become a state.


    His argument that homosexual marriage opens the door to legalizing pedophilia is specious argument. Yes there are groups out there that wish to make it man boy love legal, there are also people that wish to make the age of consent lower or gone for both boys and girls. The present marriage laws do not mean that a man can marry a 10 year old girl in any state. In fact in the last twenty year protection against child abuse in both law and societal norms has become stronger. The reasons that that the scandals in Roman Catholic church are in the news now is because the law and public opinion supports their discourse as they didnt do years ago.


    His understanding of the term natural law is different than what the writers of the Declaration and Constitution . Here is the definition :

    1. law of morality: a law of morality believed to be derived from human beings inherent sense of right and wrong, rather than from revelation or the legislation produced by society


    2. law of nature: a law that governs the behavior of natural phenomena


    3. philosophy belief in universal justice system: the belief that general laws of nature can be applied as a system of justice for all societies, regardless of their individual culture or customs


    Encarta World English Dictionary [North American Edition] & (P)2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.


    Many of the writers were not Christians but Deists, believing in a clockwork universe started by an force that started it and left running.


    The ACLU, Second Amendment Foundation, The Sierra Club, American Center for Law and Justice and others are all groups that try to protect the rights of the individual against the tyranny of the majority. They are all needed and are important part of the American system of government and justice.




  20. I wonder too what will happen to the awards and relationships with Lutheran, Episcopal, United Church in Christ, Methodist and other large mainstream Christian churches and even Jewish groups that are defining their relationships with homosexuals. Some of these groups have gay clergy and or lay leadership. Most of these groups have been long time supporters of the Boy Scouts and have a large percentage of BSA members and charter partners. When action is taken in next few years by their national bodies, what is the BSA going to do? Write off a third of its charter partners? Tell the youth members of these groups that they cant earn their religious awards because their beliefs are wrong? This subject is not going away.

  21. I was searching the web and came across this site: www.spiralscouts.org , of a group starting an alternative to the BSA. I have seen in other posts in these forums that there should be a place for people to go if they want an alternative to the BSA.

    They also have give some links to articles that have been written about them ( for example: http://www.spiralscouts.org/articles.php?art_id=6&when=0 )

    The SpiralScouts were started according to their site by Wiccans. They have been around for about two three years and I can't help but wonder why the BSA has not stepped in to ban the use of the word scout in their name as nationial has done with other groups in the past.


    I hope for change in some of the BSA policies but I would never leave the BSA. I have just posted this only to give some infromation that I don't think the forum has seen.

  22. First information for acco40. The Sabbath for Jews is Saturday as it is the seventh day of week and is the day God rested during creation. As the first Christians were Jews they would go to the synagogue on Saturday and then because Jesus rose on Sunday that would hold their Christian worship on Sunday. At least that how it it was explained to me at Sunday School, confirmation and Bible College. There are Christian Groups that have Seventh Day in their names that believe that it must be Saturday.

    More on point to the thread, I was amused when I went through Venturing Leaders training and learned under the rules as they are now, I would not have been allowed to be a leader when I got married back in the 7Os. If both my wife and I had been involved in Venturing one of us would have to leave. For I was twenty-one and she was one week shy of her nineteenth birthday . And no we didnt have to get married may now Eagle scout didnt come fore two years.

    I do understand the rules as the disruption of the unit can happen with the dynamics of dating/mating game in coed groups. But the actual mechanics of enforcing them can seem foolish. At summer camp the staff laugh at the requirement that if a staff members turns eighteen during the camp season, the birthday boy/girl has to pack up his/her stuff and move from the under eighteen living space to the over eighteen spaces.

    In her case I am in agreement with it being the Charter Partners call, but I think that the it also should be their call also in all cases, except for the safety of youth. For the BSA allows women in all leadership but does not make individual Charter Partners accept them. They let Charter Partners set their own age requirements for membership in the various levels. They can have no girls in Venturing if they wish or I imagine that they could have all girls.



  23. How do you inform someone that they are not entitled to wear a knot? I know a scouter who is wearing the knot for the adult religious award. While she just participated in the mentor program while the knot is for the recognition award, i.e. Lamb, St. George, Good Shepherd, etc.

  24. How history is written and look at is conditional of the time it was written not the time it happens. The Civil War has had many different interpretations. Right after the war the bloody shirt demonized the confederate cause. It wasnt until the turn of the twentieth century that the noble south view became popular.

    For example the period right after the Civil war, the time of reconstruction is seen by different historians as a time of greater African American involvement in southern state government as good thing or a time of mismanagement and relief that Jim Crow Laws were enacted to correct that.

    The causes of the Civil War will be debated forever. State rights vs. federal power, spread of slavery to the territories, rights of slaves and slave holders in free states, industrial states vs. agricultural states and protective tariffs vs. free trade all are underlining causes.

    I wish I could remember the name the book I read a few years ago, but dealt with the roadside history markers and their biases. It showed how you could tell by what time they were erected the slant on history they had. One of the interesting stories he told was in New Mexico. In Santa Fe there is a statue to an early Spanish Governor, with him on horseback. The text praises him for pacify New Mexico. Every few years it seems that it right foot and sometimes the horse foot turn up missing. He most note worthy undertaking was the pacification of native village by cutting off all the males right feet. It sdeems that most history has two sides if not more.


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