NWScouter

My district at the no part is farther than 113 blocks north of the county line, which is also the boundary of our council. To top it off the south end of the district is in a school district that crosses the county line. We have one elementary school that is 300 yards or so in our district but the pack that meets there is registered in the other council. I believe years and Im talking 30 +, when the school was built, the parents came from a pack in the other council and formed their pack with the help of that council. We have a troop in our district that draws boys from a school in our district but is chartered to the American Legion twenty blocks south of the line. The LDS scouts in the south end, all in a ward that that meets south of the line, are in the other council also. All of this makes for interesting problems of communication. One of the big fundraisers for troops out here is Christmas tree recycling and we have a meeting to divide up the areas for each troop to work. Last year was the first were we had those LDS troops involved. Pervious years we had problems with confusion on who tress were whose down there. The LDS stake down there is even in a different group that the stakes in our council. Most of the parents in our district work at businesses in the other council or at Boeing who has a large plant in our council but moves them all over the area to their other plants. Such is the life in the suburbs.

An isteresting drawing of the fifth circle:

http://danteworlds.lamc.utexas.edu/circle5.html

BW,

You skipped a part of the declaration of religious principles: Where a Scouting unit is connected with a distinctly religious organization, no members of other denominations or faiths shall be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly peculiar to that organization.

Scouting being a religious organization, the definition of religious: adjective 1. relating to religion: relating to belief in religion, the teaching of religion, or following the practices of a religion

2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or reverence for, a deity or deities

The definition of religion: 1. religion beliefs and worship: peoples beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life

2. religion particular system: a particular institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine

3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by

You may be able to say that scouting falls under the second definition of religion above but to classify as a religious organization to most people would mean that BSA prescribed to a set body of doctrine. The BSA has supported the scout religious training but it non sectarian and has no say in what a Scout believes beyond his belief in god however he, his parents and his faith define that.

Even the above quote you find by inference that Scouting is not a religious organization.

I think the other way a Scoutmaster can set the example is by his behavior. Im not talking about if he is straight or gay but how he treats and almost more how he talks about people in sexual roles. If he makes sexist and lewd remarks about people, if he lets the Scouts make jokes about sexual matters or allows them to make comments about the attributes of females, he is doing them a disfavor.

I can't seem to edit from work. Please disregard my perious post. I read to bottom of the first page and thought I was at the end of the post on the topic. My question was answeared.

BW,

I don't ever remember every reading anywhere a statement on removal of a scout in the BSA literature. I am wondering if you would give a citation for your last post.

I know on the application the only signature beside the parent's that is needed is the unit leader for approval.

The same thing can be said about the outing that DS said about the den meeting, just change a couple of words:

---Suppose you have a Troop that consistently can't come up with a second adult. That Troop would never camp under the two-deep leadership policy and would quickly die and leave the boys with no Scouting at all. ----

It doesnt make sense there as it doesnt make sense in a den meeting.

Even our video "A Time to Tell" points out the danger of not have two deep leadership and the potential failure of one on one rule. The segment with the "club" and the guy who has a bunch of kids come over.

Though every rule that we have is just a barrier and can be avoided, for example if two leaders are in cahoots. We need to vigilant in watching for the signs of sexual abuse in our children and most of all listen

A good gift would be go to a unit meeting and serve a ice cream sundae to everyone there. Using those big tubs of ice cream it shouldn't cost you no more than $20 for even the biggest unit. It also honors the Scouters that showed up because they get the credit for the treat.

Silver Shark,

Hunk and NJCubScouter seems to have got what I was talking about. But you brought up your last post a statement that begs to be commented about.

It is no longer just about consensual sex between adults when children are made aware of it.

When is the best time to avow anything of a sexual nature to 11 to 18 year old boys, be it heterosexual, or homosexual, or a combination of them?

If any boy, Scout or not has not heard of sex or has a good idea what is going on in those years and at least by 18 he has been like that kid in the movie where he was in the bomb shelter since he was young. Boys havent changed since I was young, it was a topic at the school locker room, Scout camp, the paper shack, the bowling alley and any where else teen age boys gather. Now the you cant watch anything on the TV or the movies that sex is not a part of. Heck, you cant even pick up the sport pages or watch a basketball game on TV with out having it mentioned.

To say that is to imply that the Scouting is not a forum to learn about role models is wrong. It is a great place to learn to respect people of every stripe and to work with them in safe and nurturing environment. Not to fear and stigmatize.

No church or religion I know of wants children to have sex but they want them to grow up in their systems of beliefs.

Silver Shark,

You have pointed out the great paradox in this whole debate. Whose religion is the norm the BSA is following? You proclaim your definition of Christianity as the basis for the rule on homosexuality. There are many Christians that would disagree with many of your statements of Christian belief. The Boy Scouts encompasses many other faiths here in the US and around the world that are not Christian. To define and defend a stand based on your religious beliefs ignores that diversity.

A couple of weeks ago I was helping out at our Councils fund raising auction. One our Scouters invited Gary Locke our states (Washington) governor, Eagle Scout, and Camp Omache staff member to speak. Here is copy of his speech:

Henry M. Jackson Heritage Auction

November 8, 2003

926 words/MSW

Good evening. I am honored to be here. Honored to be at this event whose namesake, Scoop Jackson, played such a significant role in the history of both Washingtons. And honored to have this opportunity to talk about scouting.

As I stand here this evening, my mind is filled with the memories of my development as a Boy Scout.

It all started with a camping trip I took with my Aunt and Uncle when I was just five years old.

I will never forget the sense of awe I felt as we walked in the rain forest of the Olympic Peninsula. The thrill of standing beside a wild river waiting for a fish to strike. The feeling of being in another world, a beautiful world with all kinds of new sights and sounds and smells.

My camping trip had fired me with enthusiasm to explore the outdoors. But my parents ran a grocery store that was open seven days a week. They worked very long hours and worked very hard. No vacations, no time off. It was extremely difficult for my Dad to break away from the store and our familys livelihood to take me camping. So my parents urged me to join the Boy Scouts. I jumped at the chance.

Scout leaders became an extended family, and Scouting was a great adventure.

I enjoyed scouting from the start. I felt the same sense of pride and accomplishment earning my first merit badge as I did finishing my Eagle Scout service project. I will never forget the look on my parents faces, beaming with pride at my Eagle Scout Court of Honor.

Its hard to make it all the way to Eagle Scout, as you all know. There were so many competing interests. School, sports, cars. And girls. On average, only four out of every hundred scouts earn the rank of Eagle. I am very proud to be among them.

I became active in the Order of the Arrow. Through all my high school and most of my college summers, I worked at Camp Omache in the Cascades.

Even now, many of my dearest friends and most enjoyable memories are from my Scouting days.

I am immensely proud of my years in Scouting. And I am forever grateful for the nurturing I received, and for all that Scouting has helped me become.

Scouting has always been one of Americas most reliable developers of character and leadership. It teaches the ethic of service, and the discipline to get any job done.

And Boy Scout leaders have always been generous not just with their money,

but with a far more precious resource --their time.

To millions of kids like me, that has made all the difference.

Todays youth desperately need people to make a difference in their lives. Never have the pressures and challenges been greater.

The information explosion, an affluent society, and greater mobility make trouble easier to find. Pervasive pop-culture icons and pseudo-values make it easier for young people to believe they arent measuring up, arent cool enough, arent good enough.

Hard-working parents and over-burdened teachers make individual attention and quality time elusive. These factors are a formula for bad decisions and dire, lasting consequences.

Too often, kids today spend their free time with a video game, cable TV show, or Internet chat site. A drug or a gang or a street scene. These are not good ways to become all that one can be.

The era of big government is over. Here in Washington, the number of state employees is droppingwe have one of the lowest percentages of state employees per capita in the nation. Tough economic times have restricted our ability to do all the things wed like to do as a state. Increasingly, we must rely on strong communities and organizations like the Boy Scouts of America.

Scouting has never been more important. And it has never been more important to support programs like this that help young people.

Young boysand now girlslearn many life lessons from Scouting. The American spirit of adventure and the gift of self-confidence. An abiding love of our environment. Compassion and caring toward others and the desire to help. Optimism, appreciation of diversity; and a lifelong commitment to service. And a sense of personal responsibility and self-discipline.

Scouting creates heroes. Not just those who perform death-defying acts of bravery, although scouts have been known to save the day and face danger to help others.

No, the truly valuable heroism scouting teaches is everyday heroism. The everyday heroism that makes a good and active citizen, day in and day out for the whole span of their lives. Reading books to children. Creating opportunities for young people. Caring for neighbors. Speaking out for those who are unable or afraid to speak for themselves. Working on community projects. And building strong, safe and friendly neighborhoods.

Scouting trains the future leaders well need to make our country all that it can be in the years ahead.

Once a Scout, always a Scout. In my duties as a governor and as a dad, I rely heavily on those tried and true principles of Scout Law: Trustworthy; Loyal, Helpful; Friendly; Courteous; Kind; Obedient; Cheerful; Thrifty; Brave; Clean; Reverent. I try to remind myself daily of these principles. They serve as an invaluable guide to my actions and decisions. Scouts like me will be forever grateful to the Boy Scouts of America. You are making a big difference, and an invaluable contribution to our youth and to our country.

God Bless you, and thank you.

Two deep leadership is required at all Troop activities. The example of a Patrol Leaders Council is that only the Scoutmaster is both correct and incorrect. While only the Scoutmaster should be part of the meeting and the other adult should be nearby and in be sight of the room and with in hearing to comply with two deep rule. Just as the Scoutmaster conference is the private in the sense of separation from the rest of the Troop, it needs to be in sight. In other words not be in closed room but off to one side in meeting hall or over at a picnic table away from the rest of the Scout not in a tent.

51, became a Cub Scout on the fifty aniviersity of the BSA and God willing will be hear for the one hundred.

I agree mostly with Eagle69. The first three of his steps tend to be more fluid and merge and blend with each other.

The somebody in 5 to bring it to Council Office should be the Scout (no rule but it is his project). Our council office coordinator for Eagle paperwork would tend only talk to the Scout not his parents (not their project).

Being in full uniform made brownie points too.

The most important part IS DON'T START THE PROJECT UNTIL IT IS APPROVED. It is also good when you talk with the organization about the project, you tell them it has to be approved and don't fully commit unless you are willing to Finnish the project without it counting for your Eagle.

Out here most troops use back packing tents both troop owned and individual owned. The troop I was Scoutmaster had a few troop owned ones. IT encourged the younger scouts to use them and not to go out and not go out and buy one until they were older. Most of the older Scouts and the active hiking parents ended up buying their own. Even when we car camped (dirty words in that troop), the Scouts used backbacking tents.

Hey I gave my daughter and son-in-law for their wedding last spring a REI Half Dome Plus.

Not wearing the hat does not make the Scout out of uniform. ""A neckerchief and cap or campaign hat are optional" Page 12 & 13 of the lastest Boy Scout Handbook in the section on the Scout Uniform.

Bob,

It not that we disagree with the Scouting program but the glosses you place on it. You elevate the strangest minutiae to holy writ and in many cases only your interpretations of training materials. Your never admit they are opinion and could be incorrect.

All Zahnada asked our opinion on the quote Good leaders must first be good followers.

You condemn the quote because some leaders use it as an excuse for poor execution of the Scouting program. Therefore a leader to be a follower in any meaning of the word has no place in Scouting. The idea that good citizenship (which is one of the purposes of Scouting) has no place for following doesnt make sense.

I want you to know that more than just those who agree with you all the time care deeply about the Scouting Movement (those on your list have disagree with you on other threads and have not said anything about this one).

Bob,

Again you are giving power to a word way beyond its real power. You have demonized the word follower just like in an earlier thread you did with my (as in my troop). You have assumed that by using the term we are rejecting a whole lot of Boy Scout training. We are not. If you remember from training they discuss all kinds of leadership styles, the Boss style is one of them. Each have their place in the Leaders bag of skills and have their use and time.

If a Scout does not follow the direction of his leaders how can learn the Scouting program.

I said earlier that some Scouters have problems with new Scout patrols because young Scouts have problems being leaders. I said that the problem stems more with the other younger Scouts not taking leadership from the young Patrol Leader and following his direction. That is in all the types of leadership skills he uses. It is a part of the good citizenship that we learn both to be a good leader and a good follower. I think Scouting teaches both and at the same time.

This does not give license to all the things you list. We do not prejudge a young Scout but we nurture him to learn those skill that will help be a good leader.

Bob,

What kind of support will leader get if his followers see that the leaders is not supporting leaders of his. If a Patrol Leader does not set the example in following the leadership of the Senior Patrol Leader how can he expect his patrol members to follow his.

I think you were asking if you could have two hanging from the button. You must make a choice only in the sense that more than one hanging from the button looks messy and the uniform guide mentions that we should avoid wearing to many patches to keep the uniform neat.

Are you a follower of your senator, no, a senator is not a leader in a technical sense unless he holds leadership in the senate an then only to his fellow senators and then maybe only to members of his own party. He is a legislator, a representative of the people. Now a governor or president is a leader, he has executive responsibilities. He must take actions and give orders. A legislator may be able to get things done but he in end cant tell a government employee to do something.

The patrol leader is first and foremost a leader. He is peer of fellow patrol members but they have elected him to lead them. With that election they have given them their promise to be followers of his. Yes he has to use the skills of leadership, which are direction, coaching and all the others we talk about in training but has to lead them to complete their task. He only acts tangentially as a representative of them at the Patrol Leaders Council.

Follower has taken on poor connotation, no one seems to want to be a follower. No one wants to be thought of as a blind follower. Another is similar that everyone wants to be above average, by definition half of us are below average. Most of the time we are followers.

One of the goals in Scouting is instilling good citizenship and part of that is being a follower. One complaint that Scouters and parents have about the first year patrol, they say is a lack of leadership in first year Scouts. It not that but the difficulty of the new Scouts to be followers. I was talking with a fourteen year old Senior Patrol Leader at church last Sunday, he was complaining how hard it was to get the other Scouts to follow. He dad was trying hard not to laugh. Dad said what goes around comes around. His son wasnt the best to support previous leaders.

Bob White,

That the first I had heard of that rule. I as said served 10 years as a scoutmaster while serving as a commissioner. I know that many of our commissioners serve as multiples. I called our council registrar and she had never heard that rule and scoutnet allows one to be both.

So go figure.

You can be registered as a commissioner and as a unit leader at the same time. You should not serve your own unit as their commissioner but that is up to the district commissioner to assign. I served as a Scoutmaster for 10 years while serving as a unit commissioner for a Cub Pack and also I served as an Asst. District Commissioner during that time. In our Council we have many Scouters serving unit positions and District Committee and Commissioner positions.

Until the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution in 1868 the right in the Constitution only applied to action of the Federal Governments. That is why in some states there was a established religion until the 1820s. The amendment banning slavery (13th) would not have been enforceable on the states without it.

As was pointed out that the Alabama and many other state constitutions have stronger wording concerning separation of Church and state. The writers of these constitution were concerned with establishing a strong separation of church and state.

What I think is more interesting is the reaction of supporters of the monument. It comes to idol worship. It just a hunk of granite, that should never have been put there. If the removal of it shakes their faith and following of Ten Commandments, they need to exam themselves. If they believe that by placing it there they were promoting the observing of the Ten Commandments, which is specifically Christian and Jewish. They stand convicted by their own words of promoting a specific faith(s) by using public space and funds. I know it wasnt paid for by the state but the upkeep of the area is paid by the state.

I dont need the state to uphold me and encourage me in my faith.

Water conservation is not a good idea on a hike. Dehydration is next to hypothermia as the most common and sneaky of dangers in the outdoors. In most areas water conservation is not needed. Bring a water filtration pump and have the scouts fill their bottle at every opportunity.

FOG

One of the symptoms of dehydration is not be able to take leak, if you have to go you are drinking enough water.