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NJCubScouter

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Posts posted by NJCubScouter


  1. Hmm.  I don't really see that as discrimination.

    And besides, I want there to be a female leader on that trip, regardless of whether a male leader attends an all-male trip.

    But as I said before, the BSA does not prohibit a unit from adding requirements to YP.  If your troop wants to require three-deep leadership, it can - even if that means the troop is not camping as much as it should because of the added requirement.  (I don't think that's a good idea.) And if your troop, looking ahead in time to when it is a "linked" troop, wants to impose an extra requirement that at least one registered male adult male leader be present on every outing on which boys are participating, they can do that too.  That, I think, is a good idea - although in practical terms it is going to happen anyway in the vast majority of troops, rule or no rule.

    And if someone is really so aggreived by the idea that this is discrimination, I would ask, so that must mean you want to let in atheists too, so we don't have any discrimination at all, right?  (That is not really directed at you, MattR.)

    2 hours ago, MattR said:

    The BSA has never worried about two men being pedophiles with the boys but now they're worried about two men molesting girls. 

    I think the point in wanting a woman to be present goes beyond just the issue of child abuse.


  2. 23 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

    That stills shows an inconsistency in policy.  The policy should apply the same, but it doesn't.

    It is also true of adults.  Unmarried opposite sex couples cannot tent together. Gay, unmarried same sex adults can tent together.  The policy, however it is implemented, should be consistent.  

    Other than the specific requirements of the YP guidelines and G2SS, the BSA leaves tenting arrangments up to the unit.  If you have a special situation that you think requires a certain tenting arrangement, and it is not inconsistent with YP/G2SS, you arrange things that way.


  3. 2 hours ago, David CO said:

    A better example, which I actually witnessed, was a strict, law-an-order, lock-em-up and throw-away-the-key type of person who suddenly switched sides when his own kid was arrested.

    Given my profession, I have seen this a number of times.  People who couldn't give a darn about the constitutional rights of criminal suspects are suddenly experts in whether the police had probable cause to search the trunk of their son's car.  The fact that the search may have been illegal somehow makes the drugs that were found in the trunk mysteriously vanish into irrelevance.i

    But on the issue of religion, it is so common for people to switch to the religion of their spouse that it barely merits a raised eyebrow, much less disdain.  Look at Ivanka Trump.  Or my father-in-law, who was a Lutheran until he married my Catholic mother-in-law and was suddenly a Catholic.  Or my daughter, who was Catholic until she married an Episcopalian, and she was suddenly an Episcopalian.  And mixed Jewish-Christian marriages often involve formal conversions, in both directions.  (Not mine, though.  My wife and I got married in the Catholic Church and I politely declined a number of invitations to convert, because I couldn't say I believed something that I didn't actually believe.)

    Quote

    The opposite would be a liberal soft-on-crime type who switches sides when his own family becomes the victims of a crime.

    Happens all the time too.  Wasn't that the plot of "Death Wish," basically?  (Plus the gunfire.)

    Quote

    It drives me nuts when people claim to believe in something...right up until it becomes inconvenient or uncomfortable.

    I think it's an inherent human trait.

    • Upvote 1

  4. 1 hour ago, Pale Horse said:

    How would they not permit them?  Say they have to stay identified as Boys?  Can't imagine that happening.   Make them start over as Scout and re-earn rank?  Goes against the idea that once earned, you can't revoke rank.

    Well, I think your idea # 1 does work.  You registered as a boy, you're a boy.  But again, this is all about a meaningless "first."

    1 hour ago, Pale Horse said:

    Another thought, what if down the road BSA decides to allow atheists and now a boy decides to "come out" as an atheist and admits to always being one.  Would everyone feel the same way that BSA shouldn't allow that, because he got a head start on advancement that other atheists didn't?

    @NJCubScouter I think it goes to your third point in that in a perfect world it wouldn't matter who the first X Eagle scout is.  If they earned it, they're better for it, whether their girl, boy, trans, whatever.

    Well, right.   Whether it's the first girl, first atheist, first Martian ("Oh no! Aliens!), I don't care.  Nobody should care.  I almost wish we didn't know who the first Eagle Scout was at all.  As for atheists specifically, well, we don't know who was the first Catholic Eagle Scout, the first Jewish Scout, the first LDS Eagle Scout (though I suppose it's a good bet that they know), the first Ba'hai Eagle Scout, whatever, so why should we know or care who the first "avowed atheist" Eagle Scout is, if there ever is one?


  5. Anyone can have whatever opinion they want about transgender-ism (it's not really an "ism" but I don't know what else to call it in one word), but what this thread is apparently about is, given that the BSA policy is what it is, how should the BSA deal with someone who first registers as male and then re-registers as female in order to "game the system" and become the first female Eagle Scout.  My reaction is as follows:

    One, I really hope that nobody actually tries to do that.  It is not what Scouting is all about, and would not reflect well on that person - and most likely their parents, who I suspect would be the people who actually dreamed up such a thing.

    Two, if someone does try to do it, I hope the BSA does not permit them to do it.  I support the current policy, although as I have said before, I think the wording could use some tightening up, with the GSUSA wording being the model.  I do not support allowing games to be played with the policy.

    Three, in a perfect world, or even a better world, nobody would care who the first female Eagle was anyway.  Advancement is not supposed to be race against other people.  But there I go, daydreaming again.

    • Upvote 1

  6. 5 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

    You mention that the Committee is frustrated - is there perhaps someone on the committee willing to step up to the plate and take on the role?

    I was thinking the same thing.  Maybe someone who understands the importance of meeting agendas, running orderly meetings, etc.  Not mentioning any names.


  7. 4 hours ago, WonderBoy said:

    Explorers and Leadership Corps (remember those?) wore red.

    I don't remember wearing red tabs as a member of the Leadership Corps.  I know there was an initial idea when the 1972 books came out that the Leadership Corps would be "accessoried" a little differently than the rest of the troop.  The one difference I remember was that the Leadership Corps would be the only ones wearing red berets.  But that only lasted a year or two.  Maybe the same was true with the red tabs.


  8. 43 minutes ago, MattR said:

    So, what were the original scout colors for uniforms? When I was a scout we had bright red garters.

    You mean the tabs were red?  The actual garter (the part that went around the leg) was brown if I recall correctly - but people didn't see that because the sock was folded over it.  They only saw the tab - which in "my day" of wearing garters and tabs (say 1972-76) - was green.  If I recall correctly.  I seem to recall that around that time, they had "reorganized" the colors so red represented Exploring.

    Added:  Oh, and look, I posted about this 14 years ago!  https://www.scouter.com/topic/12113-garter-tabs-and-shoulder-loops/?do=findComment&comment=78838  I was Googling to try to find a photo of the garter and tabs, and found my own post from 2004.

    More added:  Oh look again, I found a green tab:

    unif00006a

     


  9. 7 minutes ago, Saltface said:

    To quote @gblotter from another thread: Unless you attend a summer camp, or a merit badge university, or a Camporee, or a Cub Scout Day Camp, or an OA Induction, or NYLT, or any other event sponsored at the District, Council, or  National level.

    So the problem is that you might see a transgender person, and you think the BSA should have to protect you from that?  The fact is, you are probably going to see some along the way anyway:  Walking down the street; being your child's classmate - or teacher; being assigned to work with you at work; or any of the other things that people do.  The people who go to a camporee, or walk down the street, are not required to satisfy your litmus test.

    • Upvote 1

  10. I know I'm repeating myself, but I think it is relevant to a number of the posts that have appeared since I last said this:

    No unit is required to accept a transgender Scout.

    "Thank you for your interest in our troop, but it is the BSA's policy that your child be placed in a troop that is most able to handle circumstances such as this, so we are referring you to the council office for placement in another troop."

    Simple.  And council will back you up, because you're following the rules.  Where is little Charlie-was-Suzie going to sleep on the camping trip? Wherever the other troop puts him.  Not your problem.  How great is that?

    • Upvote 2

  11. On 6/15/2018 at 3:41 PM, HelpfulTracks said:

    Funny, I have spent the last two weeks writing personal letters to each of my children as well as my wife. I will quietly leave the letters for them to see when they wake Sunday.

    That's nice.  I never thought of doing that.

    My best gift this Father's Day was that as my son and I and our respective spouses were finishing a late breakfast at a local diner, my son (Eagle Scout, age 26) announced that he, all on his own, has paid off his student loans - and then out of the blue, he picked up the check.  The "gift" was not the $40 or whatever that my wife would have paid otherwise, it was the realization that my son has grown into a pretty good adult.  I mean, I knew that already, but this was tangible proof.

    • Upvote 3

  12. 4 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

    The topic aside here,  it seems the height of arrogance to tell anyone that unless they hold a certain viewpoint, they should resign

    I'm not sure about the "height of arrogance," but as someone who was told that on a number of occasions in this forum over 13 years, because I did not believe the BSA should automatically exclude gay persons as leaders, I agree that it is best not to say that to people - on either "side."

    • Upvote 1

  13. 40 minutes ago, David CO said:

    No, I wouldn't. I don't go out of my way to insult people. But if a girl (or her parent) goes out of her way to approach me to insist that she is a boy, then yes, I would tell her to her face that she is wrong. She is a girl.

    If you would do that in a non-Scouting context, I have no comment.  But if you would do that in a Scouting context, for example where the young person and/or his parents is seeking to join your unit, that doesn't sound very Scoutlike to me.  Not to mention it would be against BSA policy.  I think the proper answer to such a prospective Scout, for someone who believes as you do, would be "You should contact the council and they will find a proper troop for you/your child."

    • Upvote 1

  14. 22 minutes ago, shortridge said:

    I really can’t wait until 2024 when the members of this forum look back and say “Geez, what were these people all upset about? Well, I’ve got to put my uniform on to go to Samantha’s Eagle Court. She’s been a great patrol leader, I’m so proud she was selected for the Vigil Honor, and I know she’ll do wonderful in her fourth year on camp staff next week.”

    The available evidence would suggest that some members of this forum might say that in 2024, but that others will not.


  15. 25 minutes ago, David CO said:

    This is not something that scouters chose to be involved with. It has been forced upon us. There is no way that we will validate this behavior. You may want us to, but you can't force us to support it.

    The BSA does not expect everyone to accept transgender Scouts.  Here is the policy, from January 2017:

    Starting today, we will accept and register youth in the Cub and Boy Scout programs based on the gender identity indicated on the application. Our organization’s local councils will help find units that can provide for the best interest of the child.

    I assume that when the BSA says "best interest of the child," they do not mean that a transgender Scout should be in a unit where the Scouters believe that transgender is not a real thing.  To me, that wouldn't be in the best interest of the child.  So if a transgender youth seeks to join your unit, it seems you are supposed to refer the person to council.  You don't have to be any more involved than that.

    • Upvote 2

  16. Well, in practical terms, at least as far as Scouting is concerned, the child requires the agreement of their (using gender-neutral pronouns) parents that they are the gender they say they are.  The youth application requires the youth member's gender and also must be signed by a parent or guardian.  The BSA says they consider the youth to be the gender that appears on their application.  So the child is not determining for themselves that they are a different gender.  The adult(s) who are primarily responsible for the child are part of the process.  In the one case that became widely known, it was the child's mother, I believe, who was pushing the hardest for him to be in the Cub Scouts even though he was born a girl.

     

     

    • Upvote 1
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