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Posts posted by NJCubScouter

  1. On 2/24/2018 at 3:04 PM, ItsBrian said:

    Took the new YPT this morning (assuming I needed the most updated one for camp staff).

    Its completely different from the old YPT in my opinion.

    I feel like the new one is like a a documentary/lesson.

    It focused A LOT on sexual abuse. I feel like they should’ve focused more on two deep, digital, buddy system, etc. instead of a 30 second voice over for each.

    Well, sexual abuse and two-deep, digital etc are related; one is the problem and the others are ways to reduce the occurrence of the problem.

    But generally I agree with you.  There is too much time spent telling us what the problems are and why they are a problem, and too little time discussing the "solutions," i.e. the barriers to abuse (2-deep, no 1-on-1 etc.)  It may be that I am a little jaded about this, because I have either taken or "facilitated" (back when it was an in-person-only course) the various versions of YPT going back to 1999, probably 25 times or so.  For awhile the district had me on their regular "teaching" rotation.  So I kind of feel like I don't really need to sit through yet another recitation of how much child abuse there is and why it's bad.  I know already.

    • Upvote 2

  2. 1 hour ago, shortridge said:

    It’s more what you’d call “guidelines” than an actual rule.


    Yes, Captain Jack Sparrow, but what are the consequences of not following the "guideline"?  (That is an actual question, I do not know the answer in this context.)  If the consequences of not following a "guideline" are the same as the consequences of not following a "rule", then it really doesn't matter what they call it.

  3. 2 hours ago, shortridge said:

    Keep online conversations with everyone in public places, not in email.”

    If this is really the rule, then I think National has sailed right off the deep end.  You know, @RichardB, adults can harass and verbally abuse other adults, and it unfortunately happens in workplaces all the time, and it can sometimes lead to liability for the employer.  In BSA National Headquarters, and in councils, are employees allowed to email each other?  (That's a rhetorical question, I'm sure they are.)  If so, how do you know that some nefarious activity is not taking place by email.  By the logic of not permitting troop communications by email, then people at BSA National should not be emailing each other.  Ridiculous, you say?  I agree!

    We all want the Scouts to be safe.  But whether we want to admit it or not, we do not do "everything" we can do to keep the Scouts safe, because "everything" would mean there are no activities or communications at all, and therefore no program.  There has to be a balance.  Nobody would die in auto accidents if there were no cars and no driving, but yet we drive cars and try to make the drivers and the cars as safe as they can reasonably be.  

    • Upvote 2

  4. On 10/5/2018 at 11:12 PM, NealOnWheels said:

    I wonder how long it will be before the owners and hosts of this website are sued for defamation of character.

    If you mean the news site that printed this article, it seems to me that they were very careful to keep quoting the lawsuit rather than making the statements "in their own voice."  The lawsuit contends, the lawsuit alleges, according to the lawsuit, etc. etc.  As long as the lawuit does say those things, the statements in the article are not false, regardless of whether the statements in the lawsuit itself are false.  

  5. 2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

    If you write a blog post online accusing me by name of a crime I didn't commit, couldn't I sue you? Not sure if it's "defamation" or if it's a different word. 

    You could, and yes, it’s defamation.  But NealOnWheels was not talking about the writer of a post.

    • Upvote 1

  6. 49 minutes ago, MattR said:

    A lot of people don't realize this but if you read the original Hebrew, when Moses received the tablets that God had written the commandments on, there were 11. After Moses broke and then rewrote the commandments he dropped one. First of all, this illustrates that man wrote the 10 commandments and not God. Also, the one that was dropped was "Thou shalt not argue about religion, it just pisseth me off when you get so angry about what should be about love."

    But seriously folks, when Judge Roy Moore put up his (unconstitutional) public monument of the Ten Commandments, the monument had 11 commandments.  See https://tinyurl.com/y9oakh38  It all depends on how you parse the first few.  And if I have this correct, Orthodox Jews find 613 (I think) commandments in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy, not just 10 or 11.  A couple hundred of them only apply when there is a main Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, which there hasn't been for awhile, but there are people who do follow all ~ 400 that remain.

    • Upvote 1

  7. 4 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

    We talk often about lawsuits being filed, or the fear there of.  Can anyone list any significant successful lawsuits against BSA , or a troop, or a CO for its membership or advancement policies that actually resulted in a court ordering a change in either advancement or membership.

    I play an attorney in my day job, and I can think of almost no grounds for bringing a successful suit that would ever make anyone an eagle scout or force any individual unit to do anything about admitting a particular individual as a member.

    This is mostly a boogeyman fear, and as scouters we should be good enough citizens to recognize it as such.

    As far as I know, every lawsuit againt the BSA regarding membership policies has either been won by the BSA or settled in such a way that the membership policy was not changed until the BSA later decided to change - with one exception. That exception is the complaint brought in the New Jersey Division of Civil Right on behalf of the 8-year-old trans boy who was denied membership in the Cub Scouts because his birth certificate says he is a girl.  The BSA basically caved... they changed the policy and I believe they even paid some money to the kid's family.  The  BSA did not have to cave, they could have taken it up through the NJ appellate courts and ultimately to the U.S. Supreme Court, where they would have had the Dale case on their side, and may have won.  I think they changed the policy because they were tired of negative publicity and, in retrospect, they knew that Cub Scouts would soon be opened to girls anyway.

    • Upvote 2

  8. 2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

    Assuming no disabilities,  I would hope with an extension, we could expect more work (okay, I'll say it - additional requirements) from a 19-20yr old adult? Eagle candidate.  

    Pioneering MB?  Serve as an adult leader?

    Well, I think there is an "additional requirement" of sorts, in that the Scouts who do this will have 24 months (or less) to go from no-rank to Eagle, of which more than 16 months are time requirements, rather than having 7 years.  There will be no time for pauses and probably very little or no time for sports, robotics, school plays or any other elective activity.  These Scouts will basically be eating, sleeping, going to school (including college), doing homework (hopefully) and doing Scout advancement. 

    • Upvote 2

  9. 15 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

    I read a news article that said that she will be about 4-5 months shy of 18 in February.


    10 minutes ago, Chris1 said:

    In this article.    https://patch.com/new-york/southampton/long-island-girl-continues-quest-join-boy-scouts-national-organization-women.  She is said to be 15 on May 4, 2017 that would make her still 17 on May 4,2019 therefore still 17 on February 1,2019. 

    Thanks for that. I think that’s a good thing.

  10. 1 minute ago, Sentinel947 said:

    They'll need to be counted as adults for YPT if they are "participants" after 18 in my understanding of YPT. But this is only going to be a situation that will last until 2021. At that point there won't be any Scouts who qualify and are working their requirements under this extension. 

    You’re probably right.  They would be treated like 18-20 year olds in Venturing are treated now:  as youth for participation purposes but as adults for YP purposes.

  11. 2 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

    Ok.  So a girl joins on Feb 1 and turns 18 on Feb 2, 2019.  Same question.

    That would seem to be the perfect case for a full 2-year extension.  As for your previous question about whether they stay in the troop while age 19 and 20, how is it handled NOW when a Scout is given an extension past his 18th birthday? I do not know the answer to that question.  We had one Scout who was given until his 19th birthday to make Eagle due to severe physical disabilities.  Until he made Eagle (which actually was 4 or 5 months before he turned 19) he was treated as a Scout for all purposes.  Whether that was correct under National policy, I don’t know.  And this was about 12 years ago, so the application of YP rules may be different today than it was then.

    i think these are things that can be worked out.

  12. Just now, Thunderbird said:

    This seems to say that a 16-year-old would get 24 months (at most) from initial registration:

    "The actual extension will be based upon the individual’s registration date and age at the time of the request and will provide not more than twenty - four months from the date of initial registration to complete all requirements."

    I think what it actually seems to say is that every extension may be a different length. I think it probably suggests that someone who turns 16 on Jan. 31 will get significantly LESS than the full 2 year extension.  But we’ll find out.

    • Upvote 1

  13. 2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

    I actually found this solution to be much better than what was being asked.  There was pressure to shorten the time period between ranks or even give credit for work done before joining Scouts.   They are offering to this to boys as well and are not changing requirements (other than max age)... plus you have to earn this within 24 months so it is not for those who want to abuse this exception.

    I would have been completely happy with no modifications and I’m surprised they are allowing the exception, but at least they didn’t follow some of the suggestions that would have weakened the rank.

    I agree. It seems like the most limited and equitable “transition rule” they could have adopted, if they were going to adopt one at all.

    • Upvote 2

  14. Until I got to #3, I thought this was the worst decision in history.  But both genders are being treated equally, so I guess it isn’t the worst decision in history.  It actually seems like a Solomonic decision. I guess.

    On a more positive note, I think the decision not to recognize a “first female Eagle Scout”, and the stated reasoning, is perfect.  That is what I was hoping they would do.

    • Upvote 2

  15. On 10/1/2018 at 2:13 PM, LVAllen said:

    Clarke Green over at scoutmastercg.com recently posted a podcast in which he discussed his troop's reaction to female scouts during a trip to the International Scout Center in Switzerland. It took his troop maybe ten minutes to grasp the concept that the females they saw weren't Girl Scouts, they were just Scouts. 

    I suspect those first 10 minutes were spent thinking, "Hey, girls!"  If it only takes 10 minutes for the "girls" to become "just Scouts," that bodes well for this thing being successful.

    • Upvote 1

  16. 7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    The BSA seems to at the very least reference morality with higher power in the same objective of preparing young young people for life.

    Possibly.  My point is that they don't require that its members share such a belief.

    7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    Oh sure, a lawyer can find loop holes if that's what it takes to be part of the group.

    Any lawyer in particular?

    7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    But I think your reasoning (defense) of higher power and morality only make understanding harder, not clearer.

    Maybe.  I suppose it is clearer and simpler to say that you have a book right here that contains all of the moral lessons and requirements that mankind needs, handed down from on high.  It is much more complicated and messy if you believe that morality is aggregate result of thousands of years of human interactions, but that's what I think.

    7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    It guess morality really is accountability of our actions toward others. While most believers actions are accountable to god, you believe your actions are only accountable to you. 

    I would appreciate it if you wouldn't tell me what I believe.  In fact, I believe all of us are accountable to each other for our actions, although the "enforcement" of that accountability tends to be flawed and inconsistent, because we are human beings.

    7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    But I think, while you protest using a higher authority for judgement, most feel higher authority is the law.  

    I'm not protesting anything.  We can all believe what we want to believe.  Which gets back to the main point of the BSA's openness to a wide variety of beliefs.

  17. 10 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    How could the hideously flawed man even conceive right from wrong without a perfect timeless measuring stick.


    Someone was questioning how this discussion relates to Scouting.  One way it relates to Scouting is that Scouting does NOT require its members to believe that our moral code was dictated by a higher power.  It merely requires a belief in a higher power.  I for one believe that a supernatural force, beyond our comprehension, created the Universe and then probably retreated to the sidelines to watch the show - leaving the creatures on planets that eventually developed “intelligent” life to work out their own moral code(s) the best they could and try to survive in the process.  I do realize that there is no organized religion that believes that, religious members of my own religion don’t believe that, and most members of this forum don’t believe that, but the great thing about Scouting is that I can believe that and still live the Scout Oath and Law at the same time.

    • Upvote 2