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NJCubScouter

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Everything posted by NJCubScouter

  1. I made a factual error in my previous post, and I just tried to edit it out and couldn't, even though it was only about five minutes old. The BSA did NOT bring the lawsuit in question, I must have mixed it up with another lawsuit involving public facilities. But I do think the decision was a correct one. I also agree with CubsRgr8's statement that this lawsuit is not about the BSA's membership requirements but rather is about "the city's preferential treatment of a religious organization." That is exactly right. That is basically what Merlyn has been saying, by the way. I have to won
  2. I want to "second" what littlebillie said. In particular, if anyone really does want Scouting to "disappear," those people really are irrelevant to the discussion of either the gay issue (on which I disagree with the BSA's current interpretation of its own governing documents) or the atheist issue (on which I can't object to the BSA's policy, as currently enforced, because it is based on the same documents, though I do think they were a little silly to file the lawsuit mentioned in this thread, because it looks like a sure loser to me based on past precedent, which Merlyn correctly recites.
  3. Right, Littlebillie. A lot of people who claim to be big on "rules" suddenly sing a different tune when they find a rule they don't like.
  4. Lythops and Ed Mori: Although I disagree with your interpretation of the First Amendment establishment clause, I have to say I do have some sympathy for you guys. Isn't it rough when the body (or bodies) with authority to interpret a governing document adopts an interpretation that you just don't agree with? In your case, it is the U.S. Supreme Court and the lower federal courts interpreting the establishment clause to prohibit government endorsement and financial support for religion, and to prohibit government discrimination against atheists. In my case, it is the BSA National Execut
  5. I should clarify one thing that I said: Interestingly, all of Judaism is representated to the BSA by a single Jewish Committee on Scouting, though the three main branches of Judaism have vastly different viewpoints on gay rabbis, gay "unions" and all other related subjects. What I meant was that all of Judaism (in other words, all movements within Judaism that choose to be involved) are represented to the BSA (at the national level) by a single NATIONAL Jewish Committee on Scouting. The "National" is in the committee's name, I believe. There are "local" Jewish Committees on Scoutin
  6. In thinking about the whole current issue involving the Episcopal Church (concluded, at least for this specific issue, by last night's vote), it really is irrelevant to any issue involving the BSA. The issue was not whether Episcopal churches may have openly gay priests. (I believe that is the correct terminology for Episcopalians, priests rather than ministers.) They have had openly gay priests for years, although evidently there are still a number of church leaders who do not believe that should be the case. The issue before the church this week was whether an openly gay man (who already
  7. I'm not sure what the big deal is, at least as far as it relates to an Episcopal church continuing to be a CO even if the nationwide church body accepts gay clergy. They would not be the first religion or denomination to have gay clergy. Reform Judaism has had openly gay rabbis for probably more than 10 years now, and I am fairly sure that the BSA does not prohibit Reform Jewish synagogues from being CO's. (This is still an open issue within the Conservative Jewish movement, and probably never will be an issue for Orthodox Jews, who probably will never have either female rabbis or openly ga
  8. Thanks OGE, those last 2 songs I do know. I don't think we ever sung the last one in Scouting, I remember learning it in music class in elementary school. Talk about hijacking a thread... I guess music hath charms to soothe a savage forum.
  9. Ya know, you come back from a week's vacation (where there was no computer) and you find that all holy heck has broken loose. I wasn't going to say anything in this particular thread because there didn't seem to be anything to say... until I got to OGE's posts. OGE, where do those songs come from? I have never heard either of them before. (Well, I guess I still haven't actually heard them, but you know what I mean.) Are they sung to the tunes of other well-known songs (a la "Scout Vespers") or do they have their own melodies? Do boys sing them now? (We used to sing a bit when I
  10. I would just add: If he does join, and it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world. Many, many boys quit Scouting after a year, or half a year, or two years, for a wide variety of reasons. Is the time completely wasted? I don't think so. If they had some fun, learned some skills, maybe learned some leadership skills, learned some citizenship, improved their physical fitness, they do get some benefit. Maybe, as my previous sentence suggests, this boy makes some progress in two of the three "aims," maybe they even get "partials" (to coin a phrase) in all three, but don't make it all
  11. (First of all, did AdviserFB's post jump into the wrong thread? I was going to answer it, but then saw that it seems to be in the wrong thread and I did not want to send Sager's thread off into you-know-what-land.) I have written here before about my own experiences with the "religion" part of Scouting. When I was 16 or so, and up, I was basically this kid, sometimes thinking I was an atheist, sometimes an agnostic, usually not being sure, sometimes not caring, but interspersed with all of that, also feeling (especially when in the outdoors with Scouting) feeling like there was some gre
  12. Flyingember, I do not know how many members my local OA lodge has. I guess I am not actually a member of the lodge at this point, having last paid my dues when I was 18, which was 27 years ago. And the lodge no longer exists, though I live in the area covered by the lodge into which it was merged. (In other words I grew up in Council A but now live in Council B, except about 4 years ago A and B merged and now it's all Council C, and the OA lodges followed suit.) I'm told I can present my membership card from Lodge A, pay my dues and join Lodge C, which I haven't gotten around to doing yet.
  13. BobWhite says: The "outdoor program" goal is often misquoted. The BSA does not say an active unit needs to camp once a month. It says you need to get outdoors once a month. Hiking, skiing, cycling, smimming, nature observations, climbing and rappeling, swimming, boating, pioneering, skating, rifle and shotgun, archery, cooking, firebuilding, survival skills,and many other scout skills can be done without camping. Those things CAN be done without camping. But remember that this thread was prompted by a troop that ONLY camps at summer camp, and self identifies as a "non camping troop.
  14. Dsteele, I have never heard of a "Den Aide," but I did an Internet search on that phrase and got 94 hits, so it may not be so arcane or archaic. Here is a link to something that appears to be authoritative (though not an official BSA national site, and possibly a copyright violation if it is a direct quote from a BSA publication, but anyway...): http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/da.html So it is not a registered or membership position, and is mainly used when den chiefs are not available, but is not officially limited to that situation. I guess it is just used to provide a little e
  15. Well Bob, to answer your question with a question, what "value" are you talking about, exactly? Heterosexuality? Is that a "value"? Or is it just a characteristic that the large majority of people (though not all) have in common? And if it is a "value," how did it become a "value"? And, specifically, how did it become a "value" of the BSA? What is its source? Is it a religious value? Because if that is what it is, and nothing more, I do not see how the BSA can enforce it on members who do not share that religious value, without violating the BSA's own declaration of religious princ
  16. Ooh, OGE, I like that rule, 50 pounds over "ideal" weight. Since I am about 60 pounds over "ideal" weight (at least the last time I read a chart, ideal for 6'0" was about 180), and I thought I had to lose 40-45 to even get somwhere in the general neighborhood of the vicinity of my ideal weight, this is great! Now I only have to lose 10 pounds!
  17. btps, what does that mean, "not a camping troop"? You do SOME camping, right?
  18. Ack, I missed a close-italics, and the editing function still is not working for me. I hope this works so that I do not italicize later posts.
  19. Kwc says to me: With all due respect, how you choose to interpret the Scout Oath and Law as opposed to the folks at National who determine policy really makes little difference. And then goes on to compare it to an employment relationship. And FatOldGuy says of the BSA National Executive Committee, "By defininiton they are correct." Obviously I recognize that those who presently make up a majority of the National Executive Committee have the power to enforce their interpretation, and that they are using their power to do so. I, and those who agree with me, do not currently hav
  20. I have never heard Mic-O-Say mentioned except on the Internet (including here.) Is it a regional thing? If so, the region does not seem to include New Jersey and adjacent parts of NY and PA. Unless I have missed it, both as a youth and adult member. OA, on the other hand, is strong and well-promoted in my area.
  21. You're welcome. I guess I should add, just to be clear, that what I am talking about is what is necessary to START the prosecution. "Probable cause" is enough to make an arrest, get an indictment, require the accused to post bail, or in some cases, confine the person without bail. To get a conviction requires more than that, and as should be familiar to every TV viewer, it is proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. In my earlier example, the prosecutor could have Witnesses A through G or A through Z and still not get a conviction, if it turns out that critical witnesses are lying, or did
  22. Someone asked for a "real lawyer." Acco asks: If the "state" presses charges, why do police officers ask citizens if "they would like to press charges?" Rooster says: Theory #2 - Perhaps the intent behind that question is, if charges are pressed, "Are you willing to cooperate with the prosecution?" It's probably a waste of time and money (for the state), if the purported victim gets on the stand and states something to the affect, "No he wasn't assaulting me. We always goof around like that." Rooster, you are on the right track though only partially correct. The ph
  23. Yes, Bob, I remember that press release and the resolution on which it was based. I am sure that I wrote about it in this forum. Obviously, I do not agree with it. All that the National Executive Committee "reaffirmed" was its own interpretation of the Scout Oath and Law, and I (and others) believe that that interpretation was and is erroneous and does not reflect the true values of Scouting. Just because the National Executive Committee has the power to interpret the Oath and Law does not mean they are correct, and it does not mean that the interpretation will not change some day. Once u
  24. There's no question about it, and I think the parents need to understand that the 2-deep rule is not aimed only at the kind of conduct we primarily think about when YP is discussed. What if the other ASM continued with the 5 boys and HE was injured, or became ill, or whatever, and could not continue on? Where would the boys have been then? You can't protect against everything, but when a crisis has occurred, you need to think about what would happen if something ELSE goes wrong. It sounds like you did that, and arrived at the right answer. The trip was over, and by the way, the boys learn
  25. Advisor, you were getting reimbursed within 1 or 2 months? In some units that might be considered pretty good.
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