NJCubScouter

OK, DedicatedDad, I will ignore what could be viewed as a personal attack and implied questions about my integrity. I am confident with my own integrity. As for who between us is childish and insists on making his own rules for debate, I will leave for others to judge. My answer to your question is this: I do not think that having long hair, unnaturally colored hair, or an earring represent "traditional values." I never said or implied that they did. Nor do I think that these things violate "traditional values," as you apparently do. I don't think they really implicate values at all

Exactly. I would add this: I have debated several times over the years with people, such as DedicatedDad, who claim to believe in "absolute morality." What they actually believe in is their own belief system as the "absolute," and anybody who doesn't measure up is a "relativist" or worse. It's a convenient way to "win" an argument -- your opinion is no longer just your opinion, it is fundamental, absolute truth, and your counterpart's opinion is no longer just his opinion, but becomes the advocacy of evil. It's a fundamentally dishonest way to debate. Folks like DedicatedDad al

the sodomy threads DedicatedDad, you are one funny guy. "Sodomy threads," really. Is that what you really think of the issue of whether otherwise qualified leaders are disqualified because they are honest about their orientation? It's all about what part goes where? Those were rhetorical questions. I'm pretty sure the answers are "yes" even if you don't like the way I asked the questions. By the way, do you realize that in some states, "sodomy" is still illegal even between married persons of opposite genders? Better be careful, someone might be looking in your window to ch

OK, DedicatedDad, let's recap here: I asked you what "values" are violated by hair that is long or pink (seldom do you see both), earrings (by which I mean simple stud earrings, not hoops or baskets of fruit or anything like that)or makeup. You responded with such things as humility, modesty, etiquette and a few others. Before I respond to your response, though, I realized that I need to clarify my question. So please answer these: 1. In your world, do "values" and "moral values" mean the same thing. Or, put another way (I guess this is question 1B), are humility, modesty, and t

OK, DedicatedDad, you claimed that a discussion of earrings in the "Traditional Values" thread in "Issues and Politics" would be redundant, presumably because of this thread. So let me ask you this: What value -- not just a tradition, but a value, is violated if a boy wears: An earring? "Long" hair? Purple hair? Facial makeup? You don't need to answer for your other examples, just these. And let me throw in an example: A boy with a shaved head. Does that violate any values? What values are violated by any of these things?

The side that says we have no right to expect people to act responsibly and to accept personal responsibility instead of only demanding personal freedom will also have and advocate at their table. What "side" says that? I don't know of any group that says we have no right to expect people to act responsibly. The ACLU does not say that. I don't say that. Who says that? People are convicted and sentenced for crimes every day in this country, and are thus required to "accept" responsibility for their actions. I don't know of anybody who is opposed to that. The ACLU only takes part

Having read DedicatedDad's response to sctmom, I will now post what I originally wrote: Dedicated Dad sayeth: It would be easier to list an issue and discuss its traditional family values aspects than to try and define centuries of moral and ethical ideals. Abortion AIDS Christian Bigotry Cloning Condoms Available in School Drug Legalization Education Euthanasia Promiscuity Hate Crimes Legal Prostitution Prayer in School Homosexual Agenda Liberal Media Bias This reminds me of a story from when my son was 4 and a half years old and my wif

So, DedicatedDad, nothing about jewelry on your list, I see. I was going to comment on the lack of any discussion by you of your list items, but then I saw you bemoaning the editing situation. So I figure I'll give you a few hours. At least the non-editing affects all of us across the ideological spectrum.

OldGreyEagle, is there a known answer to number 4? I thought the Unknown Scout was, well, unknown.

Weekender says: I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. And you have the right to disagree, and to express your disagreement, as you see fit - thanks in part to the work of the ACLU and others who are constantly defending that right. As Paul Harvey says, "Self-government doesn't work without self discipline." Interesting statement, but I'm not sure why self-discipline is the responsibility of the ACLU. Self-discipline is just that, SELF-discipline, or put another way, knowing when it is best to refrain from doing something you have the RIGHT to do. (Like the BSA choo

k9gold-scout writes: Would the Americian people be better served if there either no ACLU or no Boy Scout of America. I know it's a cop-out, but fortunately we do not have to make a choice. Society is better for the existence of both. Neither are perfect, because they are run by human beings.

I have been wondering the same thing as OldGreyEagle, especially after reading the thread in which some seem to suggest that wearing an earring somehow conflicts with "traditional values." Traditional behavior perhaps (though "traditional" is not necessarily self-defining and, and does not necessarily represent "good" or "exclusively good" behavior), but not traditional values. And referring to the BSA's website certainly doesn't do it for me. I have read everything on there in the past, and there is very little discussion of specific values. Most of it deals obliquely with the gay iss

The following are mostly assumptions from OldGreyEagle's post, but they are probably fairly close to the facts: Perhaps Old SPL's enthusiasm for taking command of the troop, even though it is not his job, results from the fact that he is not being "challenged" in his present position of PL. Presumably he was once a PL and did well enough at that job that the troop elected him SPL. Now he is back his former position and is bored. He can do the PL thing standing on his head. So he sees the new SPL perhaps being a bit shy and reticent to take charge, and does not like to see things "drif

BobWhite says: Congratulations to your son NJCubScouter for reaching his new rank. Thanks! And unlike a number of the other Webelos in our pack, he seems gung-ho about the idea of becoming a Boy Scout, which is good. It's just that at some moments in every boys development, nothing fits right. Yes, I guess intellectually I knew this, but I have been largely sheltered from the clothes-buying in my family. My wife generally has taken care of this, including uniform needs for our two older children (both Girl Scout dropouts.) The one exception to my wife being the clothes-s

My son is a Webelos 1 (fourth grade.) He is about average size for a 10-and-a-half year old. He has been eligible to wear the tan shirt since September, but he was not in any great hurry, and so we decided to get as much use out of the blue shirt as possible before shelling out for the tan one. Another factor was, I figured that once he earned the Webelos badge, we could make sure he got the oval one, and go right from the blue shirt with the "diamond" of ranks to the tan shirt with the oval Webelos badge. That time has come. He received the Webelos badge on March 1, and buttoning the blue

BobWhite says: By the way the Arrow of Light is not a rank. It is an award. and The Scout badge is not a rank, it also is an award. The final rank in Cub Scouts is Webelos, and the first rank in Boy Scouts is Tenderfoot. I did not realize that the Arrow of Light was not considered a "rank," and a bit of browsing around on the Internet suggests that people more knowledgeable than I have difficulty with the distinction as well. The Virtual Cub Leaders Handbook contains a lot of information that I have found useful, and at the following address: http://www.geocities.com/

To Rooster: In retrospect, my reading of the post in question is that the extensive discussion of the chartered organization's role itself carried at least a potential implication of relevance to this particular set of facts, which I guess I thought negated your disclaimer to some extent. In other words, I did not think that your point was as clear as you thought it was. You have since made it abundantly clear that you were not saying what I thought you might be saying. However, I also was not completely clear, because in discussing the "making up" of facts, I did not mean that you were tr

Thank you, Rooster, for posting part of your post in larger type, my aging eyes appreciate it. But that really isn't the part of your post I was responding to. I was responding to your dragging the subject of the chartered organization into this thread, where it does not belong.

Rooster, why do you and DedicatedDad feel compelled to make up facts that are not part of the scenario presented by the Scout and his mom, and then act as if the answer to your made-up situation is (or may be) the answer to the Scout's question? In your case, there is absolutely no suggestion that the CO has a hair-length policy, or even that the SM went to the CO and asked if he could impose one, and got approval. The facts suggest just the opposite. This boy was appointed SPL by this SM! If there was a rule, or a policy, or a suggestion by the CO, or anything of the kind, that boys in th

Dedicated Dad, I am not the one who is "assuming facts not in evidence." I am responding to the post as written, while you are making up hypothetical facts such as the existence of rules that appear nowhere in the posts by those who actually know the facts. I suppose that I, and almost everybody else, are assuming several things: One is that the original writer, and/or his mother, knows that the existence of a rule governing a subject is crucial to a discussion of how that subject is being handled by the SM. Another assumption is that the boy and his mother are trustworthy and would theref

I, too, have just encountered the gremlin that prevents one from editing posts. In my last post, the underlined material at the beginning should instead be italicized, and should be preceded by the words: "Ed Mori writes:"

If a Troop has rules regarding personal grooming then I feel they are out of line. It is NOT the responsibility of the BSA to define what acceptable personal grooming is. This isn't the Armed Forces. Personally, I don't like guys wearing earrings. But if a Scout wants to wear one, then that's his right. Will it effect my opinion of the Scout? I hope not. As long as the personal grooming issue doesn't present a safety hazard then I feel the SM in this case is out of line. I agree completely. I suspect that our personal opinions have something to do with when and where we grew

DedicatedDad writes: A Scout is Obedient. A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them. What are troop rules? Can there be troop rules for personal appearance? If a scout thinks the rules are unfair isnt it his obligation to change them himself and not having an adult intervene for him? Talk about it amongst yourselves, Ill get back to you. This raises interesting hypothetical issues but I d

Inspired by this thread, and having a 24-year hiatus to my "credit," what I would like to do is wear a service star(s) for my youth service to go along with the 2-year "leader" star that I just received from my cubmaster at our pack's Blue and Gold Dinner. If I recall correctly, when I stopped being active as a Boy Scout (actually as an 18-year-old ASM) to go to college, I was wearing a single 10-year star to denote my combined Cub and Boy Scouting. I do not remember what the backer color was. (Where this particular star is is currently under investigation; my brother inherited my shirt som

Bob White says: The Webelos badge may now be worn temporarily, until the Scout Badge is earned. I had not heard that before, and it is directly relevant to my son, who was awarded the oval Webelos badge 5 days ago and will be crossing over in a year, give or take a few days. (He is still in the blue shirt, which has gotten tight, but we were waiting until he got the Webelos badge to buy the tan shirt, put the Webelos badge on there, and transfer the "diamond" rank badges and arrow points to the red patch vest.) So what you are saying is that after my son (and his den-mates) cros