Basementdweller

If it were my sons or my scouts' date=' I would have taken them to the council. My brother didn't want to make waves. I did suggest it.[/quote']

 

I think you need to ask your brother what he wants: For this to happen over and over again for the next X years 30 boys at a time, or if he doesn't want to make waves.

 

Contrary to the beliefs of the R Lee Ermey wannabe nimrod who came up with this, every kid who goes through that NYLT is learning to act the way they were treated, as long as they grin and say "just kiddin'" at the end. And given the way these nimrods tend to become ensconced your brother can be sure if he doesn't wake waves now that's the way things are going to stay in that course. If he just can't bring himself to do it, his son's SM needs to be appraised and take the situation to the SE.

From what was said the council or district would be better off with no NYLT training verse this one

So I got a phone call from a scouter who is now involved with trail life last night. It was a recruiting call....

Very enlightening.

I heard he left and was disappointed in him and I believed he left because of the homosexual youth issue. Well in an hour conversation last night his issue is with the BSA and how top heavy and unresponsive it has become. He cited our scout execs $300K a year salary and the cost of maintaining summer camps. then our dysfunctional district and how we have become the dumping ground for DE's they want to force to quit.

He has lost faith in the BSA paid leadership's ability to look out for the boys best interest. He left very specifically over the Summit Cost and the membership fee increase.

While I still view the Trail Life crew just as I view the American Heritage group, as a bunch of bible thumping hypocrites, speaking with him was good.

I now understand why he left and agree with most of his points.

I disagree with the initial reason the organization was created and may never be able to get passed it.

It was good speaking with him again.

National registration is $24

Boys life is $12

Beyond that our unit charges $1 per week, Covers merit badges, rank advancement youth training and the other sundry expenses that seem to crop up including the dog that ate the troop flag.

Campouts.......Basic food cost $3 per meal per boy so $15 for the weekend, then if there is a campground, cabin or activity expense then that is added on. Our most expensive trip was $65 which included a Cabin, Snow Tube rental and gas for the 250 mile round trip drive.

Summer camp for us is $210.

Generally speaking

The quality of the instruction is low. Participation equals completion in many cases. Group size is too high and many are run for council profit.

I watched a group of young men earn all three citizenship merit badges on a saturday morning. I watched a group of 11 year olds earn personal finance that afternoon at one of these.

My guys go to specialty events, Atomic Energy, Sailboating, robotics or Aviation....But they are not pow wows or universities.

So you have to ask yourself, Is the merit badge just another hurtle on your scouts way to eagle or is a scouting experience to be savored.

Remember many scouts find a hobby or even a vocational interest through the merit badge program.

Free market..........

The boys and families don't want Citizenship, Religion, Duty or Responsibility in their lives. They want face book candy crush and ipads for immediate gratification.........

So maybe I will see the end of the BSA in my life time....... Maybe that white elephant in West Virginia will kill it. $250 for 4 days at the summit.....really.......might be small potatos for some folks but that is 25% more than I pay for 6 days of summer camp.

Guide to advancement: 4.2.3.5, pg 29, states clearly that leaders do not have the authority to deny a Scout a unit leader (SM) conference that is necessary for rank advancement.

 

There is nothing for the SM to sign off on other than the fact that a scoutmaster conference was held. If the scoutmaster won't hold one, then the SCOUT should ask for a board of review, as the G to A says.

Sure he can have his SMC but the CC could deny the BOR based on a SM recommendation to do so

Basement, it sounds like somebody needs to get out of scouting and it's not the boys in your troop. Your open disdain for anyone who doesn't agree with you is unlikely to be limited to here and I can only imagine the toxic environment that is taking hold within your troop as you berate and insult everyone who comes within striking distance. For the good of the boys and the program I'd highly encourage you to take a step back from scouting, and perhaps seek a little anger management therapy.

I am not gonna do it again. She was out of line and I do not have to put up with it.

Her son is very new to scouting and the troop, he has yet to camp with us and has missed 1/3 of the meetings......

Brew, her scout isn't ready, He will be some day but that day is not today.

Another example.....

A neighboring District runs a Junior Leadership council day.......5 years ago it was Free, 3 years ago it was $5, Just went to register my APL's and sub PL, SPL leadership. It is now $25 a head......

Why is that?

Council Greed, my friend that is what it is.......,

Yes you would think that. Our council is . . . . to be polite . . . .less than helpful or informed. And for better or worse I am the pack leadership

Papa, your response is the exact same one I would have given......

Or I could have given one like "sure my Scout camp has a fantastic Webelos Program and we are in Anchorage Alaska........"

If this is her council they havent updated their website for the coming season

http://www.bsa-selacouncil.org/event/webelos-adventure-camp/1334846

Don't apologize for me.....

Scouting is a horrible shadow of what it once was......I am not even speaking of my time in scouting as the sun had already began to set on my time.........Fricken millennial Parents......Every body is special, deserves a title, a Trophy or a pat on the back for not crying because they didn't receive the Pink Elephant Petting Merit badge, even though he wasn't in attendance.

Helicopter parents........Cub leaders who don't understand or won't understand the intent of the boy scout program

Weak poorly trained Adult Leaders whether they gate keep or the ones that Participation equals completion bunch......Grow a spine, follow the guidelines for safety and advancement.

Or the Other Adults that think Boy Scouting is a Family outdoor adventure club....

So we have a mom here who is going to start meddling in the troop.......Just like she did in Tiger Cubs push her scout to the head of the line....

My Troop has grown and I am very sure it was not a good thing.....I am dealing with a few moms and grandmothers now....whose scout joined our unit less than 2 months ago and think they should be SPL, PL or even God for that matter.

So NO, I don't have any sympathy and a complete understanding of this MOM.......

So Guys, just curious here, In her scouts Football team.....How far would a phone call to the coach go to make her son Team Captain?????

NO WHERE.......

Ya, I am grumpy this morning........After spending an hour receiving abuse from a mom not unlike this yesterday......Our conversation ended with "No, I will not appoint your scout to any position and NO I will not assign him a project, His SPL or PL will assign him the position. Furthermore YOU are not to speak to the SPL, your scout will need to ask him for an assignment and If I hear of you speaking to the SPL on your scouts behalf, your scout will be asked to leave our unit."

If I deal with this mom again on this subject before the end of the week I think her scout will be asked to leave.

The Eagle Scout award means different things to different people. I have encountered people that see eagle scouts as a really impressive, and others that see them as no big deal. I think one of the things that shapes our view of the award, is what were the eagles like that we knew when we were scouts.

 

In my old troop, we had only one scout make it to Eagle while I was there (no, not me). He was our SPL at the time, and a great scout (if you wanted a great example of kind, courteous, helpful, etc. He was it). I remember his eagle project. It was a conservation project at a county park, and the whole troop showed up to help. I spent the day with a pick in my hand digging a drainage ditch in hard ground ("are you sure that isn't concrete?"). Others in the troop laid out matting on bare hillsides and erosion channels. It was a project he (and all of us) were proud of. We saw how much he put into the troop, and how much he put into the award. To us it meant something because of the scout that held the rank, not the award itself.

 

Later that year when I met my first 14 year old eagle at summer camp, I was kind of shocked. How did he finish everything so quickly? I chatted with him a while about it. His troop turned out to be an eagle mill troop (though I hadn't heard the term back then). His project was a joke (he collected newspapers for recycling by giving twenty homes a paper bag, asking them to fill it with old newspaper, and collecting it the next week. He collected about a 100 pounds, that was it. Our troop did a newspaper drive every year, and we collected more than that per scout). His troop also ran a merit badge "clinic" the weekend after summer camp because summer camp didn't give out enough merit badges. He had gotten something like eight merit badges at the previous year's clinic (enough to finish his eagle). He boasted that over half the scouts in his troop were eagles (I didn't believe him, so I went by their camp later. I didn't count them, but there were a lot of scouts with eagle patches). Basically, his eagle award wasn't worth much (unfortunately this encounter has colored my view of "young eagles" to this day - something I have to watch out for).

 

So I can see both sides.

Not every 14 year old Eagle scout spends the next 4 years giving back his unit, just as in the same manner every 17 9/10 year old Eagle spent the previous 12 years enjoying scouting.

You guys don't like my Troops attendance policy.......

 

Bottom line here is the OP's scout would not be granted a SMC or BOR because he does not meet our definition of active. Which is 50% of meetings and activities for scouts and 80% for youth leaders......... It is reasonable, the scouts are aware of it as it is posted in our Troops handbook and on our website.

 

 

 

 

Every time we have this discussion on this board I think less and less of Eagle........as blake said it has become a participation award.

Your right, a boy can request and SMC for any or no Reason.

The games being played by all parties.......

That is why our units expectation is communicated clearly up front....If you want to advance, well you need to at least attend regularly.......

On no another parent trying to make sure her boy gets a POR so he can make eagle by the time he is 12.

SO OP what is your position in the troop??? OH you don't have one......then butt the heck out. Stop trying to work the system....

Let your son enjoy his scouting experience, Let him grow into a leadership position.

BTW...

The SPL and PL's are elected the rest of the positions are appointed by the SPL and PL's. The SM shouldn't be doing it.

Beav's usual assumption was always that the person being tried in absentia was a reasonable Scouter with the best interest of the Scouts and the program at heart.

 

Unfortunately, my experience with SMs as both a youth and adult is of ignorance and ego as described by Myboy. There's a book--a few, actually--with 90% of this stuff in it. My opinion in my troop is always the minority and written off as "my way or highway" because I am literally the only person who has ready any of these books. The SM handbook, the PL and SPL HB, the Guide to Adv., and the Guide to SS, etc.

 

Every one of these threads is situational, and this SM is ignorant--willfully or inadvertently, it doesn't matter--and his position is wrong. I don't care about his intentions, I don't care about his heart: He's wrong. He is either wrong on purpose, or he is wrong because he is no good at his job, whichever, same difference. If he's wrong because he's unfamiliar with the GtA, his heart isn't in it. If he's wrong because he refuses to abide by the GtA, his heart isn't in it.

 

Next week someone might come around to pan their SM and if they're wrong and the SM is right I'll be right there by the SM. But in this situation, taking Myboy at face, the SM is a heel.

You guys don't like my Troops attendance policy.......

Bottom line here is the OP's scout would not be granted a SMC or BOR because he does not meet our definition of active. Which is 50% of meetings and activities for scouts and 80% for youth leaders......... It is reasonable, the scouts are aware of it as it is posted in our Troops handbook and on our website.

Every time we have this discussion on this board I think less and less of Eagle........as blake said it has become a participation award.

Very long time lurker, MB Counselor, Committee Member, Den Leader, parent, and longstanding Eagle Scout and Order of the Arrow member who has heard of this situation one too many times to not finally express an opinion...

 

 

"You understand this is going to get real ugly if you just go stomping around"

 

To the careful reader/observer, the quote above from a prior commenter is very telling indeed.... this type of gleefully being primed for a fight should have no place in Scouting on any level by any adult, least of all a SM. Not very attractive nor honorable.

 

If this young man has completed his requirements in good faith, has participated in good faith to the best of his abilities within the parameters of his physical abilities and other obligations, especially academic obligations which as a high school student may be exerting a tremendous pressure on him, then perhaps it's time for the Scoutmaster to move along and find other avenues within which to express his ego and need to dominate the underlings.

 

Instead of giving him a hard time over exacting attendance requirements which he may simply be unable to meet at this stage of his schooling, look at him holistically - does he LIVE Scout spirit? Have YOU as his leaders been successful in instilling the VALUES of Scouting, as demonstrated in his everyday life? Does he set an example to his high school peers by maintaining good grades and lending a hand to those who struggle? Does he have good relations with his teachers and mentors? How easily can he get letters of recommendation, from how many people in the community outside of Scouting, and what are the contents of those recommendations - non-commital or impressively glowing - and how consistent are they? Does he regularly and willingly without duress attend to the obligations of whatever faith he may follow? Does he share his time and talent with his faith community? Does he have a job? Was his Eagle project thoughtfully conceived, significant and touch people's lives by serving a real need, whether it involved a million hours or not to complete? Not everyone has to build a bridge in the woods, clear fifty miles of trails, or involve fifty people to be "worthy". Look at the VALUE it brings and the depth of maturity it took to conceive instead.

 

Has he done anything other than not meeting your stringent and most probably arbitrary attendance requirements to displease or dishonor the troop - such as have a driver license suspended, get a girl pregnant, do drugs, take alcohol or smoke pot where it is illegal, drop out of school without cause, have someone sue him, especially if these things have been very public or in the newspaper? Does he lie, steal or cheat his way to success? Has he used profane language when addressing peers or adults? Has he physically or verbally hurt or threatened another Scout or caused a safety hazard on a campout? Is he a bully? Has he been involved with the police or court system? Can the SM or other adult leaders answer NO to all these questions regarding their own behaviour in their past youth or now as adults?

 

If the answers above are yes and no to the appropriate questions, then CELEBRATE the wonderful job YOU have done to help him become that honorable type of person, instead of looking to nit-pick technicalities and artificially stand in his way to make yourself feel powerful and important.

 

With the year after year decline in overall Scouting membership numbers nationwide, SIX percent decline this year alone, wouldn't it be better for the survival of the organization you all claim to love so much to help an honorable young man achieve his long-term goal, deepen his love for the program and have him look with fondness toward the day he might have a son of his own to introduce to the program, perhaps becoming involved as an adult to lead the next generation of Scouting forward? OR is it better to take a good kid who may not be YOUR perfect, ideal Eagle and make him bitter and resentful forevermore?

 

Having worked with a number of them myself, I acknowledge there are wonderful Scouters and SM's out there. Those Scouters are owed a tremendous debt of gratitude by the Scouts they work with selflessly and by their parents. Increasingly though, and very distressingly, I am more and more frequently running across narcissistic, egotistical, power-tripping, head-game playing, passive-aggressive, subtly-bullying, hostage-taking, gate-keeping, boy-leadership usurping SM's who have completely lost sight of who and what this program is supposed to be about. It is particularly infuriating when these behaviours are committed by a SM who is himself NOT an Eagle. To them I say, you should be ashamed of yourselves and the sooner you move along the better, for the good of the boys you are negatively affecting and the Scouting organization as a whole. I encourage you to re-read the guide to advancement - it is clearly stated you don't get to gate-keep a Scout from becoming an Eagle because he does not live up to some fantasy ideal you have of what a "worthy" Eagle is - that is not your prerogative. Particularly for older Scouts, it explicitly states that a Scouts outside obligations, accomplishments, and service are to be counted toward whether he is active and spirited.

 

Ask yourself, who is truly living Scout Spirit? Who is truly making it ugly? Who is truly doing the stomping around? And more importantly, WHY?

 

Original poster, if your son can look himself in the mirror and honestly know he EARNED that rank, then teach him to respect himself enough to respectfully not take no for an answer and pursue what is rightfully his without indulging the fancy of this SM's ego. Remind him this an opportunity to learn to deal with this type of difficult personality which he will certainly encounter in the real work-world. It is unfortunate he has to encounter it so early within the supposed safety-net of Scouting. Don't let it get him down. And certainly don't be intimidated by words such as "You understand this is going to get real ugly if you just go stomping around". Because that is what they are counting on and how they flourish in acting inappropriately. Oh, and anything you might agree to, GET IN WRITING with a specific deadline - concrete things that are not open to their subjective interpretation, so they cannot employ their favorite trick of all - running out the clock to the eighteenth birthday. Been there, done that, seen it all from both sides.

 

Best of luck to both of you.

 

- BoyLedMyEye

I wonder what your scouting linage has to do with the discussion. I am an Eagle scout and OA member as well I have held every position in a Cub Pack except COR and Every Position in a troop but CC and COR. District Day Camp Program Director as well....... So what???

I have been on the receiving end of the ugly of scouting.......From the unit and district level. It is ugly and mean and folks hold a grudge and will seek vendetta upon everything your involved with in scouting.

If your son remains in scouting after such an appeal.....there will always be whispering behind his back about his Eagle.....

Just like the Boy who was at Jamboree when his Eagle project was completed by his parents.....or the SM's Son who Dad signed all his merit badge cards.....Or the Boy whose dad bought his Eagle. on and on..

My scouts were treated like that in training, I would take the entire bunch to the SE and have them make statements....

The course director needs fired and possibly some jail time

One side of the story here.

 

So Honestly.......how many meeting does he make a month???? How many campout has he made in the last year????

 

My Troop has an attendance policy of 50% for meetings and outing for scouts and 80% for youth leadership.

 

Active is a unit policy...That might be what his beef is

 

 

Hard to give advice......

 

Go a head and do an end around and go to the District Advancement chair and see how it affects his ECOH.

 

If your going to have that conversation with the DAC, how about not making it about your son, but about a SM who is not following Advancement guidelines and the district should look at it.

 

You understand this is going to get real ugly if you just go stomping around

 

A half hearted or even pointed Scoutmaster speech. Heck he might not even attend if it got that ugly.

To be completely honest.....As SM and I thought a lad did not complete the check list.....and was over ruled....I wouldn't attend at all.

That message is important for the lad.......The guy that mentored me all these years doesn't think I earned it. Maybe I didn't....

I have scouts who miss meetings, that's going to happen, but I ask them meeting after meeting if they completed the missed work yet. I then ask the parents and email continuous reminders. Sometime they don't arrive prepared or complete home assignments. Now, when I plan my meetings, I bring everything that is needed and do the "home assignment" with them.

and for crying out loud.....

Don't rush to follow your son to the troop, let him have a year or so of no dad hanging around.

As pointed out in many many thread....The absolute worst Boy Scout leaders are the newly crossed over Cub Scout leaders.

Why are WE visiting the Troop.

May you should stay in the car and let your son go and evaluate the meeting.

After all it is his scouting experience not yours.......Regardless of his decision you should support him

Let me begin by saying the BSA is irrevocably broken from a admin professional stand point.

So exactly what am I paying for????? The only thing I am not required to do for my unit is enter new applications.

So explain to me why we are paying $1.3 million dollars in salaries to Staff in my council.

Do nothing DE's, who don't provide the services that the FOS presenter say they do......No boy talks, no flyers, no uniforms and books for those in need, no improvements to the camps......

No you won't be receiving any money from me for friends of scouting. It is purely about Fund Our Salary.......

not about the boys.

One side of the story here.

So Honestly.......how many meeting does he make a month???? How many campout has he made in the last year????

My Troop has an attendance policy of 50% for meetings and outing for scouts and 80% for youth leadership.

Active is a unit policy...That might be what his beef is

Hard to give advice......

Go a head and do an end around and go to the District Advancement chair and see how it affects his ECOH.

If your going to have that conversation with the DAC, how about not making it about your son, but about a SM who is not following Advancement guidelines and the district should look at it.

You understand this is going to get real ugly if you just go stomping around

How typical......No follow up from the OP......

But If my boy was in tears over being called names.........

I would get to the bottom as to why......

If that included an evaluation by a professional than so be it.....

I would get to the bottom of why.......

I have not met the 14 year old that crys at being called names........of course I deal mostly with kids in the hood who go to low scoring public schools and they receive and give verbal abuse on a daily basis.

Old Shaggzzz is probably that scout because I received a message that he added me to his ignore list.

 

Didn't like my answer. Sorry son.

 

Scouting and Recreational Drug use are not compatible.

While they have challenges they have made the correct choices to this point.