MomToEli

What a great way to spur participation in service activities! If they worry about what they might miss, maybe they''ll be there next time

(filing that little idea for future use)

Old Grey Eagle - if that person in the mall had an outstanding warrant, then yes, my off duty husband would kick in gear, call for backup, send me and ds off to the movies while he was busy.

If there is not an outstanding warrant, or this person were not being sought at that moment, or if there were no immediate illegal activity, of course he would NOT arrest them. We also would not invite them to hang out with us for the next hour, hour and a half while we window shopped or ate dinner. And we sure wouldn''t tell them, here - sit by my 8 year old.

Thanks for the definition of SE - I really knew that and was just testing you (vsg).

***stupid question alert!***

SE? I know DE is District Executive, but what is SE? I know I should know this ....

This also begs the question ... what if the person had a history of pedophilia? Would that make a difference?

And NO, these people do not have a criminal history of that or anything to indicate they MIGHT have. But, where is the line? Where is our responsibility to protect the children in our care from known dangers? And what about when what one person deems dangerous conflicts with the opinions of another?

I want to be perfectly clear - I''m not saying they are DOING the drugs at the meetings. I am saying they are entrenched in the drug culture and have repeated and recent arrests involving drugs.

Having lived with a drug addict many years ago, I know most people who participate in this activity regularly carry their paraphernalia with them - be it a pot pipe, a crack pipe, whatever. Might be a joint stuck in a pocket. I also know that they don''t live in a bubble, as do none us - and their lifestyle goes where they go. As for the LE officer enforcing the law, rest assured that things were taken care of when there was a flagrant issue to take care of - just not in front of the entire Pack of boys. My dh was faced with the exact situation that we had struggled to avoid - the mother of this child, even though she had been told that dad could not be present, brought him anyway. Funny thing about warrants - if you have one outstanding, no one can tell you (or your friends or family) that. They arrest you. So it''s not like someone could tell her WHY he couldn''t be there at that point. For several months we succeed in keeping him completely out of my dh''s line of sight.

Now they are back. Up to that point she, her son and her daughter were more than welcome, but I needed assurance that he would NOT be around. She wouldn''t give that. She was transfered to a different den. Then it was discovered that she also has recent activity going on, and pending legal issues. There are a group of people who think we have done this mother an injustice and it is causing quite a ruckus. They have NO IDEA the facts in this case. This year, my dh, instead of being co-den leader is now CM. The situation is not widely known in the Pack, but certainly some of the parents in our own den have a vague idea of why she isn''t with us, and a couple of the other leaders.

So, the question is not whether drugs are being consumed on the premises. And I assure you, my dh is very highly trained to recognize when persons are under the influence - there are ways to even tell WHICH drug is the likely culprit. He is trained beyond what an officer is normally trained. There are several LEO in our Pack - from US Marshals to State Troopers to DCI agents. As far as I recall this minute, my dh is the only one who would be familiar with localized activity of this type.

Please understand - this isn''t about just not liking someone. This is about safety.

Nope, not Manning

The latter - kids who have uniforms already even. In our Pack, uniform means shirts, neckerchief, slide, jeans, shoes/socks. I''ve been having kids show up in all kinds of attire. Ones coming in their baseball uniforms don''t bother me so much because at least they are trying to fit both in. But I have a couple of parents who want the kids to be able to wear t-shirts (we have no Pack Class B shirts at this point) and whatever. One mom told me her son doesn''t like to wear pants that don''t have elastic waist, so that''s why he can''t wear jeans. In an effort to get away from sweat pants of varying colors, those slick looking gym-type shorts, etc. and the rowdiness that tends to go along with it, I informed my little Bears that since they are getting older that we were going to start wearing our uniforms properly and we''d start having uniform inspections this year.

Our Pack has a uniform closet for any child that needs help - used shirts can be provided free. I''d even pay out of my own pocket for a new shirt if a used one weren''t available for a boy who wants to participate who can''t afford the shirt.

As Den leader, I wear full uniform, down to my lovely green and red socks to every meeting and event. My assistant (Mom with the zipper and button sensitive kiddo) wears her shirt with jeans or shorts. She does always wear her shirt, though.

I''d like them in uniform because there is a definite difference in their behavior, but I don''t want to be atilla the hun about it ...

It''s hard sometimes to know what battles to pick ...

"I don''''t think it makes a difference that the DL is a law enforcement officer. Presumably they aren''''t on duty when they''''re at the den meeting, right? "

Actually, Lisabob, this isn''t correct. As the wife of a cop, let me assure you that they ARE on duty 24/7. If there is activity that requires them to act (a warrant, for example), they don''t have the option to not enforce it. There are circumstances they have leeway, for sure, but make no mistake - they are always ON. There are situations that vary in severity (for lack of a better word). People, knowing he is LE would expect him to act if a person were intoxicated and loading kids in the car to take somewhere.

Also, in this case, we are dealing with known facts. The criminal court information is a matter of public record - the activities have been an ongoing issue for several years for the people involved - so we''re not talking about people who screwed up, are getting help and all that. I''m all in favor of coming around folks like that and giving them all the support they need. People DO change. I just need to even hear that they WANT to change, if you know what I mean. And, interestingly enough, the fact that mom has issues on a more regular basis than dad even, just came to light. If she had been content to not insist HE be present (and he had an outstanding warrant at the time - imagine the conflict THAT caused for the leader)her own problems might have stayed under the radar for a long time. They are divorced! She wanted the Den to act as his supervisor for his supervised visitation ... That all came to a head at Pinewood Derby, and they left the Pack - turns out BOTH of them were arrested within a couple of weeks - not together, but independent of one another.

Now, they''re back. They were put into a different den, but the issue of what is best for the REST of the boys remains. Taking off my leader hat (and I am on the committee, so this is a situation I really do need to work through!), and pretending for a moment that I know nothing about what is going on - if something were to happen - an arrest were to made that my child would be exposed to - drug paraphernalia or drugs being found by mine or any other child because it dropped out of some one''s pocket - someone intruding the space we are in because a deal went bad and where we were seemed like an easy place to retaliate - ANYTHING bad or inappropriate happening, and I discovered that the leadership of the Pack was aware of the situation and didn''t at the least inform me so I could choose whether to expose my kiddo to that or not, I would be beyond livid. There is no end to how far I would take this.

So, am I unique, or is my view colored because we are talking about my den, my child, my husband? Because of my dh''s involvement in drug enforcement, I have an awareness that not many do regarding how likely people REALLY are to re-offend, and just how bad things can go and how quickly it can happen.

I feel very bad for this kid. I know without a doubt that scouting could be THE best thing for him. So many problems would be solved in a grandparent WOULD be the ones to bring him. But do you try to save the one while risking the others? Where is that fine line?

Honestly, we''ve faced this issue in a lot of different settings - I''ve had felons deliver furniture to my house, had people that my dh recently arrested walk up to us in stores - even a church one time. There are restaurants he has put on our do-not-eat list because of the people working there and the trafficking that goes on that most people don''t have a clue about. It simply never occurred to me that we would be facing this issue in Scouts ...

The issue of the scout being expelled for smoking pot has been very interesting. Here is a bit of a different scenario that I''d appreciate some input on ...

How about the Scout (Cub Scout age) whose parents are involved in illegal drugs? Once you are aware of their activities and their ongoing issues with the law, do you allow them to attend meetings at any and all levels? Do you require the parents of the other children who will be exposed to them to be informed? What if your Den Leader is a law enforcement officer? Are there any specific guidelines by the BSA that address this issue?

I''ve read several references in this thread to the effect that the uniform is not required by BSA.

Can someone please explain to me, then, what is meant on pg 8-4 of the Cub Scout Leader Book when it says "Cub Scouts and adult leaders should wear their uniforms to all den and pack events." And again on pg 12-11, "The Cub Scout and adult leader uniforms are suitable for Scouting functions and should be worn at all Scouting meetings and activities." And finally, again on pg 12-11 "The uniform helps you achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting, so you will want to make sure that all of the boys and adult leaders in your pack are completely and correctly uniformed."

This is becoming an issue in our den, as a matter of fact, and I''d like to make sure that I know of what I speak before I open my mouth and make a fool of myself 8-)

Wow, this is a topic close to my heart right now! I'm the Camping Chair (Pack level) and it has been a mess getting other adults to step up and take a role in any of this. I'm most upset about the other leaders, frankly. LisaBob is so right - ask specific people to do specific tasks. I'd pretty much bet that specific parents outside of my own Den have not been even asked as their leaders were asked to do.

Thankfully I have enough parents in my Den who are living vicariously through their little Scouts that we manage to get stuff done. And, hopefully, in the case of the Spring Camp-out, we will liven up the program (and Pack meetings, too, for that matter) so that people will find it something fun that happens rather than something simply to be endured. I know that the other Leaders are starting to perk up now that they realize there really IS a program - they are starting to ask what, exactly, they can do, at least.

It is going to be really difficult, IMO, though, to get boys to belly up to the responsibility bar when that is not the example their parents set. I fear we are raising a generation that has not been asked to sacrifice much in their lives - for God, for Country or for Family, let alone for Scouts or Community.

CNYScouter, if it were me, I'd recruit the adult from the other unit, have your unit pay their way, and let your boys know that it is THEIR money that paid the way. It's not you bailing them out, it's THEM making up the deficit - even if it is with activities they will NOT be able to do in the future. Use it to teach them that other peoples' irresponsibility has a wide circle of consequences. Good luck with it. I hope your boys get to go.

Oh, great post, Scoutldr! Sorry about the back, though. I had lower back spasms twice in the last 8 years and it is an ugly thing! My heart goes out to you, and I wish you a painless recovery.

The cost of scouts ranks right up there with One Hour A Week! My dh started to figure up what I kick in as Den Leader each month then got so frightened that he gave up that idea - and we charge den dues! At least my parents are with it enough to realize they don't begin to cover the costs, so they chip in craft supplies and extra dues from time to time!

John-In-KC, band uniforms are more durable, but they are awful to try and do anything in, including sleep! Especially once you put on the coat!

Well, we had our committee meeting and they approved everything I want to do - gotta love 'em!

I'm going to order enough of the really inexpensive ones that SSScout was talking about so each boy has one in their hand to take home, and I'll have extras. Then I am going to get enough Silva 1-2-3 Starter Compasses so that each Den Leader has one for the activity. Those we will give away as door prizes at the end of camp.

For the actual activity, we are going to have everyone first stand up and face north (thanks for the idea SSScout!), then pass out the compasses. Once they all figure out how to find North, I'll have each Den mark paces North, East and SW (or something like that - need to look at the area first), hopefully ending up back at their starting point. We'll have a short talk about why it is important to know directions. We will be doing a Search & Rescue program also that afternoon, and not losing your bearings fits right in with that. We will save the more rigorous navigating for Den activities at another time, when it is easier to keep every one's attention.

Thanks for all the great input. You all really did convince me NOT to use the $3.95 Ozark Trail compass from WalMart ... Anyway, I'll let you know how it all goes.

What great ideas! And thanks for the links!

As for what we do at the Pack meetings -- well, I can relate to the guy who has the nice, but all grown up CM. Honestly, we've been on the dry and boring side. Personally, I think that has more to do with lacking attendance than sports, but hey -- I'm the greenie here.

Our Dens are currently rotating duties, with sharing being one of those duties. That means one Den shares. I've yet to see a skit. Our Wolf Den is going to change that in May, though. With me being the Camping Chair I get to do the advertising for the campout, so my Den is doing a skit. Hope it goes over well. And, I'm also planning the campfire program, so there WILL be singing. This is going to be an interesting year, I think. Hopefully most folks won't resent change. The CC will be a good sport about it all. He's getting used to me

Again, thanks for all of ideas and links! Off to check them out right now.

This sounds like a really dumb question (at least as I type it), but ...

How do you go about getting your Pack singing when they haven't done so for a long time and the adult leader entusiasm for same is, shall we say, lacking?

The first opportunity we (myself and my new Cubmaster hubby) have will be at our Spring Campout, as I'm the Camping Committee person. The CC has told me about 10 times now that he does NOT like to sing ... which explains why we don't. DH wants to having singing at Pack meetings, too, since we hear it is supposed to be a big part of the Cubscout experience.

I don't mind bucking the wind, but I haven't a clue how to go about this. I have the Cubscout Songbook on CD. That's it.

I do mean door prize in this case, but where do you find that BSA doesn't allow raffles? Our pack does them every month. My nephews' pack does them also. In our case, the raffle money buys the next month's items. If we are violating the rules, I'd like to know so I can bring that fact to the attention of our committee.

Thanks for all of the great ideas and input!

I'm leaning towards SSScouts advice, as I have about 60 scouts ranging from just graduating Tigers to new Webelos 2. I simply want to introduce them to the compass, rather than master the compass at this point. Just want to help them earn their Map & Compass Belt Loops at the campout.

I had just about settled on the Walmart jobs - 2 for each Den (leader holds one), and then raffling them off around the campfire later that night. I've always thought I'd rather be able to put something in every kid's hand, though. So, maybe I'll look into 5 of the recommended compasses and raffle those off, while putting one of these little jobs into each hand.

I am also going to check with one of our local Troops and see if they would like to help with this particular skill.

Thanks again! This forum is an awesome resource!

Possibly both. I have a vague idea at this point for an activity - certainly I am open to ideas. I'm thinking of having them pace out a triangle in a large open area. We will be doing a Search & Rescue Hike as well, and I'm considering having at least the Webelos use compasses on that, too. (The hike will be done grouped by Den with each level having a different course - I so wanted to say it is being done by groups of Den!)

Particularly, though, I'm asking about compasses. I'd like to put one in each Cub's hand, but not sure that is feasible.

The theme for our Campout is "Survivor Ahquabi - A Cub Scout Adventure", so this activity needs to fit into that theme.(This message has been edited by MomToEli)(This message has been edited by MomToEli)

I would like to have a mapping and compass activity at our Spring Campout. Can any of you recommend an inexpensive compass, suitable for Cub Scouts? I thought of making them, but the idea of needles in the grass makes me queasy ... though it could be a good opportunity to hone our first aid skills ...

Yes, you are crazy, but who isn't that spends so much time around kids?

On to a more serious issue, though - I agree with Ea. It is really easy to get our real priorities out of whack. You need to have the blessings of your dh for it to work. Find out his why. Then do what spouses are supposed to do and talk it out. You both need to be okay with whatever your do.

In my not-so-humble opinion.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Eagle Pete! I didn't make that mistake, but probably due to years of mothering experience - and all of the hot dog and bun buying that comes with it. There is a story behind the dogs to bun ratio - I just don't recall it at the moment!

My challenge was presented by the grocery store, though. In our box of 50 packages of hot dogs they included some packages of 10 dogs and some packages of 8. And nothing on the receipts told me how many of which ones! They charged me the same price for each kind (either way, they are a pound). The way I had to figure out how many dogs we sold was to figure the buns and guess (with the help of the guy doing the serving!)at how many were served bun-less!

The biggest change I will make for next year is to figure out a system to track how much we sell of each thing rather than rely on backing into the inventory.

If anyone is curious, it took 286 hot dogs. We had 59 Cubs that raced. Didn't do a head count on all comers. We fed our Cubs for free and all others paid. Our out of pocket cost was just about $105( this is just the food part, of course, not the entire PWD), and that included paper products, coffee, other misc supplies. Left over cooked hot dogs, iced down pop and water, open condiments - all of this type stuff is distributed among leaders and is included in the above cost. Thankfully our grocery supplier takes back unused product, so we were able to order enough yet not get stuck with anything.

We considered this a huge success, and actually spent less than we anticipated, by about half.

Thank you so very much for your ideas and input. I'm keep very detailed notes for next year!

PWD was an AWESOME event!

First - thank you to all of you who have replied.

Clydesdale115, I agree we need a little more solid count. At least a more solid guess. I can pretty well predict what MY den will do, but can't fairly apply that to the whole pack. So, I've emailed the den leaders and asked for their best estimate of their own dens. Our next pack meeting is 4 days before PWD and I can't wait until then to make some decisions ... Since my dh is going to be the next Cubmaster, and we will have had all of this experience (oh, yeah) we will be better prepared for next year!

As for th 1-1/2 times the head count, I actually found that mulitplier on a website aimed at the military. It actually broke down quite interesting .... 2 per male, 1.5 per female and 1 per child - an in lieu of knowing the actual breakdown, use 1.5 times.

CNYScouter, I wonder if your experience isn't because it was a picnic. I would think (hope, actually) that PWD would be a bit more of a commitment to folks. I know we didn't have much variation at our fall campout. There were a few stragglers and awol folks, but they were certainly few.

ScoutNut, I don't think we served food last year, but they certainly have planned food for other events, such as Blue and Gold and campouts. Our pack almost doubled in scouts this year, though, so that is making it a bit more difficult. I'm a numbers kinda girl, and you can be sure I'll keep track of things like ratios, but I don't think our guys in the past have been quite that anal

Freezer space I'm not so worried about, but buns do not freeze well, in my experience. Anything left will be divvied up between the leaders I would guess, as things were at the campout. I do like the homeless shelter idea, too, though. And, as someone said, this menu isn't going to break the bank, which is one reason we are keeping it simple. We certainly don't want to waste money unnecessarily, but we have been quite blessed this year so don't have to panic over some hot dogs.

Thanks, nldscout, for walking me through your formula. Some of the guys actually thought around 500. I've been thinking that may be a bit high, since we plan on buying a bit of a better grade of hot dog. I'm guessing they might be a bit bigger. So, I was leaning towards 400.

The other side of this, though, is that we are looking at at least 6 hours of racing (including Outlaws) and that makes for a really LONG day. Any delays at all and we are really pushing into the dinner hour. So, it is really possible to have people going back mid to late afternoon for another frankfurter fix. Maybe 500 is a better number.

Thanks so very much, guys (and gals, if appropriate). I'm going to chat with the chairman of our Blue and Gold, plus visit with the CC some more before I do this. It is up to me to decide - I just want to be wise with our resources.

It is nice to know that there is a place where you can bounce things around with folks who have BTDT.

Our Pinewood Derby is coming up, and as this is going to be pretty much an all day event, we've decided we need to feed these critters! I need to figure out how many hotdogs I need to order ...

We have 71 cubs on the roles. Figuring parents, siblings and such, how many hotdogs would you order?

If it factors into your decision, the "combo" lunch will include a hotdog (with bun, of course), a bag of chips, a can of pop or bottle of water, and a rather large cookie. We want additional hotdogs available for those who want more than one. I'm a little afraid the guy-leaders on our committee might be thinking in terms of their appetities, rather than their cub's, though ...

I think you teach it with lots and lots of repetition and providing controlled opportunities to practice.

We just took our den of Wolfs on a hike. Once they were paired up with their buddy, the rule was that they had to stay with them NO MATTER WHAT. Of course, as soon as we set the rule, a parent tried to get their kid to go with them and not wait for their buddy who was in the bathroom. Sigh. Thankfully, the kid refused to leave his buddy!

We only had one child we had to keep reminding. All I had to say was "Where's your buddy?"

This has been an interesting thread to read. I thought I would address this as the mom of a Wolf Cub, rather than as a Den Leader ...

Yes, the popcorn is pricey (and we don't use Trails End here - our's is a better value, IMO, but still pricey). So is all the school fundraiser junk I've bought this year to support other children's efforts. But I buy it anyway for several reasons - support the child, support the organization are just a couple of them.

I think there is a far greater lesson here, and point, than raising money for an organization. I know I love the growth opportunity this has provided for my almost 8 yo son. He made a plan and he worked his plan. He learned to wait to start speaking until the other person was able to give them his attention. He started out looking at his toes and ended up looking people directly in the eye. He learned to speak in such a manner that other people can understand and hear him. He learned to feel proud of being affliated with an organization worthy of that pride. He set a goal -- so high we had no doubts that he could NOT POSSIBLY meet that goal, but we trudged along anyway. This morning, he surpassed his goal (and I only placed a smaller order early on). He has been dreaming over that prize sheet for a month. Now he can't sleep, he can't quit talking about it. And the pride I, as a parent, feel for him for his tenacity is priceless.

He also learned how to accept no and even borderline (or blatant) rudeness with integrity and a thank you. He learned that you don't quit -- some will, some won't, so what. He learned not to let other people control his efforts or his success. I could easily go on and on.

So, as a mother, THANK YOU, BSA for even having a fundraiser! Perhaps a big part of the difference is that I, as the parent, never once saw the inconvience of it, or the unworthiness of it. I saw the opportunity to teach my child and we ran with it! Just my $.02.