molscouter

The toughest aspect is that it is likely most of the kids remember none of it. They were in kindergarten. I asked my youngest now a first year Boy Scout, if he remembers any of it and he surprised me when he said no.

I like the idea of a brief discussion on duty to God and country. Last March, at the crossover ceremony, I (Pack Chair at the time) said a few words along the lines of this:

"I see our Tigers and I look at these boys about to leave Cub Scouts. Parents it's amazing how fast the time goes by. I remember the night most of you joined Scouts. We met over in the cafeteria and you joined Tigers. That night you and your parents first heard about duty to God, Country and yourself. It was September 10th, 2001, and little did we know how much our concepts of duty to God and Country would change scarcely 12 hours later in New York and Washington and Pennsylvania."

Fuzzy,

Since Scouting in the US didn't start until 1910, we need to eliminate all the Presidents born before 1900 or so. That leaves us with only 9 who could have been Scouts, starting with Kennedy. Doesn't change your overall point though.

Our first years have already figured out that all they have to do is talk to the Webelos when they come to visit. For technicality's sake, we probably should make sure that some of them are 11.

"Now, if it will make you feel better, I *do* intend to look for plaintiffs for any remaining BSA units chartered to government entities, and lawsuits would likely be filed against both the school and the BSA."

You've got time to shop for plaintiffs but not time or desire to clean up your own list. Amazing.

Merlyn,

Funny how the BSA and anything associated with it must be 100% accurate (as if any large entity can be) yet your own list doesn't have to be. It's not up to us to correct your list, it's up to you to correct it. It doesn't matter if it was generated by computer nor that you put a disclaimer on it. The fact is it contains erroneous information and therefore, by your definition, lies. It's worse because you admit it contains false information. The fact that you are too lazy to research and correct it exposes you as a hypocrite. Hold yourself to the same standard you seem to require of everyone else.

As for Mr. Bhakta, should he or a staffer have researched the issue better? Sure. But that does not necessaruily make him a liar.

Two points.

1. What part is the "lie"?

From the article you posted last week:

"Mayor Street will evict the Boy Scouts's Cradle of Liberty Council from its city-owned Center City headquarters, or make the organization pay fair-market rent, unless it stops discriminating against gays."

So the mayor isn't trying to evict the Boy Scout's because of the gay policy? Seems to be true.

The webpage doesn't say those words? No, that seems true as well.

So the writer, likely not researching the issue in the depth that you have, draws a different conclusion than you would? That makes him a liar? Your own web site has (or had, I'm not going to bother to look) "lies" all over it re. schools sponsoring troops and packs. You made the assumption that if the organization had the word school in it that it should go on the list. You didn't research it. Therefore, by your definition, you "lied". Adding a disclaimer is weasel wording.

Now, totally on the other side:

2. He's running for Congress. A politician not telling the truth. Gee, I thnk I'm gonna keel over dead of a heart attack from the shock of that one.

All of the above is good advice. When I was in that situation a few years ago, I offered the boys the choice of receiving the loop a second time (at their expense) or just giving them the credit. Most of the time, especially in the second year, they just wanted the credit. Also, since they are older, a little deeper understanding should be required. For example, a boy earned the baseball loop as a Wolf. The rules portion might have consisted of four balls, three strikes, three outs, because at that age, that's what the game basically is. As a Webelos, I might expect some knowledge of the infield fly rule, or what a ground rule double is, as those things can into play when playing the game at that age.

That was 7 straight, 9 out of 10 and 10 out of 12, but in any case those are two records that will never be broken. It's been what, 30 years since anyone went unbeaten for 1 year (Indiana 1975-76, I believe), much less 2+ seasons,and you could never keep the team together for that long. The structure of the tournament with the balanced regionals won't allow anyone to ever come close either. Those were the days of one team per conference getting to the tournament and you only had to win 4 games to win it all for most of those years. West meant west, so the competition to get to the Final Four wasn't as tough, as say the Mideast, where the Big Ten Champ and the SEC Champ tended to knock each other off. All that being said, the Bruins took care of business whatever the competition and the only feats I can think of that are even comparable would be the Celtic's run and DiMaggio's hitting streak. Truly remarkable.

BTW, the last team to beat the Bruins before the streak was ND, and it was ND the Bruins beat to break San Francisco's record of 60 straight. I had forgotten that the win at Pauley my freshman year snapped a 98 game home win streak for UCLA. I miss those battles, and I view UCLA as a bitter rival, but one born of respect. Hope you can come back in the second half.

"(As an undergrad I attended every home game for four years and never saw the Bruins lose!)"

In my 4 years at Notre Dame, my class never lost to the Bruins at UCLA (4-0, a record I believe will stand an awful long time). In the interests of full disclosure, UCLA did beat us twice in South Bend during that same timeframe (1976-80).

This is a hold your nose game for me, but I guess if I have to pull for one team, it will be the Bruins. Truth be told, I just want it to be a good game.

scoutingagain,

Perhaps you should point out to your wife that her sister has allowed the Government free use of HER money for anywhere from 12-15 months, whereas you have had the use of more of YOUR money. Personally, I don't like the getting a refund, I much prefer owing a little bit. Then I have the use of all of my money, plus a little of what I owe to the Government. Too many people view their refund as some sort of gift.

If she still quibbles, ask her this. Would you prepay your cable TV bill for a whole year, or your mortgage? Why is a tax bill any different?(This message has been edited by molscouter)

The IH and COR have the authority and responsibility; however, depending on how involved they are with the troop, it might be best to go to them with a name or two.

This has been discussed many times in other threads, but here's my 2 cents.

It is customary to view the active part as being consecutive months, but the requirement doesn't actually say that, so in theory any 6 months will suffice.

There really isn't supposed to be a percentage assigned, but an expectation of being there half the time is not unreasonable. However, active is a subjective word, so lets look at what his SM is looking for. He seems to be looking for 50% participation. In the 18 months, your son has gone on 8 campouts, 2 hikes, a Philmont trip and a summer camp (I am assuming these are all separate events). That would seem to support the 50% threshold. Now, if your troop meets every week, he seems a bit weak on the attending meetings aspect (and I am not saying he doesn't have a good excuse ,somewhere in these threads is the story of a young man who held up for the "active" reason because he was attending an EMT course that directly conflicted with every meeting). In 18 months, the troop likely has had somewhere in the area of 72 meetings, probably more like 60-65 when you factor in holidays and summer activities. 17/60 is not a great ratio. I'm having a hard time seeing how he could have been an effective ASPL only being there less than 1/3 of the time. That all depends on what his duties are as ASPL, and that's not a question I can answer. If they are meeting twice a month, your looking more in the 30-35 meeting range, and now he's in the ballpark for 50%. That's still not a great percentage for a troop leader, but it does support the SM's aim.

You could appeal it, and you will win, as BSA basically has said that being registered is being active, but your son sounds like a go-getter, I don't think he will want to advance that way.

You don't say how old your son is, but if he is getting All-State Chorus invites, I'm guessing he is 17 or nearly 17, those honors aren't generally given to freshmen and sophs. Work with the SM and try to come to some accomodation. If your son is rational and calm about pointing out where he has basically met the SMs threshhold, maybe it will work out. It would be best if your son did this by himself, however, it will show a maturity that might carry some sway.

It seems to me that there are a couple of issues here. First, it appears that the troop is doing their own drug alcohol program. Since it is their program, can the troop require the boys to make a poster and give a 5 minute speech on this subject? I believe the answer is yes, and I don't see how it is adding to the requirements.

Having said that, unless the program specifically brought up exact criteria as to what the poster and speech must consist of, they should have passed your son on the requirement. The only way I would not have is if his presentations contained great amounts of erroneous material.

"there are a few who are not progressing in the troop and the committee wants these boys to either participate and progress or leave."

This is one that always bugs me. Do they show up? Are they having fun? Then who cares if they advance. Some kids just don't care about advancement. The troop I serve had one young man who was in our troop for 4 years and never got beyond 2nd Class (and that almost by default). His 2 years younger brother never got beyond Scout. Neither cared a bit about advancement. But they both came to a lot of meetings and went on most campouts. The older was one of the best campers in the troop, but didn't want anything to do with the book learning stuff. Both decided to drop this year (we're not sure why, but I believe fumes got to one and school work to the other; I would have considered both poor students). But they decided to drop, not the committee. It's up to the scout, not the adults.(This message has been edited by molscouter)

A few points and a caveat, I am no fan of the Tiger program, so the thought of a program for boys even younger is even more unfathomable:

1. In my 7 years involved with Cub Scouts, Tigers have almost always been the best behaved group. It's all brand new to them, there's an awe factor. Like it or not, "been there, done that" does set in. I have seen it every year for 7 years through 3 Cubmasters each with their own style. I have written this before, but watch the awards ceremony. When Tigers get their totems, they are grinning from ear to ear (Hey Mom, look what I got). Wolfs are a little less enthusiastic, but still pretty proud. Bears are a lot more jaded (rank badge, arrow points, did that last year). It picks up a bit as Webelos with the activity pins, but that soon fades as well and by the time they get to second year, they'd rather just sit down as fast as they can, even for Arrow of light.

2. The bus driver isn't trying to entertain these kids for an 1-1 1/2 hours. The cubmaster is.

3. A lot of kids burn out on these activities precisely because they are starting too early. Six years of Cub Scouts is going to lose you far more boys than you gain. These are boys who will never become Boy Scouts. (The 10th aim of Cub Scouting is to prepare boys for Boy Scouts) Why do youth soccer and baseball teams have tons of kids at age 4-5 and then steadily lose numbers every year after that? Yes, some kids find out they don't like it, but I submit that burnout is a huge factor, and that includes the parents as well.

Acco40 sums up my feelings on this to a tee. It's hard enough to put together a pack meeting for 1st-5th graders, adding kindergarteners would make it nearly impossible.

Woody, you said "Girl scouts have been including K-age kids for years.As hard as it may be boys are no harder to control than girls. I have both my self.If you keep them busy they will be fine they have to learn some time."

I'm not familiar with the Girl scout program, but it seems to me that the units are close aged based. K-1's together, 2-3s (forgive me if my grades are off here). They don't have 1st and 5th graders in the same unit. Maturity levels are relatively the same. Put thosr K's with some 5th graders and see what happens.

Arrow points cannot be awarded until the Wolf badge is earned, however, they can be worked on and signed off. It is not unusual for a boy to be awarded at least a gold arrow point with his badge of rank. Many of the electives are things he might be doing in school or in sports or whatever. The only requirement is that he must have done them as a Cub Scout of the correct age/grade (no going back to that trip to the fire station in kindergarten or that roller skating party in first grade).

Since she's into sports, ask her what Hank Aaron, Bill Bradley, Merlin Olson (Hall of Famers all), and Bruce Jenner (Olympic Decathlon Gold Medalist) have in common, Then throw in Neil Armstrong, Gerald Ford (played football at Michigan in his college days before becoming noted in another field). Oh, and I sure wish I had invested a few thousand dollars with that Harvard computer nerd a couple of decades ago, what was his name? Oh yeah, Bill Gates.

The one I know of for sure that has been updated to all of the latest requirements is at:

http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/9152/cub-tracker.html

However, it says specifically that it's not compatible with Works. The good news is that the site contains a link to a free compatible spreadsheet (that link is under the system requirement section).

I found these tools invalubale when I was a DL/WDL a few years ago.

What spreadsheet program do you have? I have found that Quattro can usually run Excel programs.

Fred,

I have read the requirements. I was a a WDL for 2 years. As you quoted, they say " In order to earn the AOL he must be active in his den for 6 months after completing the 4th grade or turning 10, and earn the Webelos badge." It does not say be active in your den for six months after earning the Webelos badge and after completing the 4th grade or turning 10.

As further evidence, I offer the following links:

http://www.arkie.net/~pow-wow/planning.pdf

http://insanescouter.com/t276/webelos/planning.pdf

While the guide is a bit oudated due to the new requirements, it seems to be an official publication (13-720 seems like some kind of publication number to me). One also refers to a pow-wow, which tells me they got it from an official source. I refer you specifically to Plan "D", which refers to boys joining in 5th grade.

Cubmaster Fred,

The AOL requirement is be active in your Webelos den for six months after completing 4th grade or after turning 10, not 6 months after earning the Webelos badge. If the boy is in 5th grade, the 3 months requirement for the Webelos rank is a part of the 6 months required for AOL. Both ranks can be worked on simultaneously. Are you going to tell him he can't earn Readyman (AOL requirement) before he has earned Fitness (Webelos requirement) or go on a day hike or overnight campout (other AOL requirement) before he earns his Webelos badge? The boy has a steep enough hill to climb without adding 3 more more nonrequired months. September signup means potential March award, if he works hard.

You have the same problem many packs have, a few people doing everything. They are burned out. The Cubmaster sounds like he has the job because no one else wanted it. The committee exists on paper only. There probably isn't a real committee. Names may have been on there for years. Have you asked the CM/CC what you can do do help? Unless the guy is a complete egomaniac, he will welcome the help. Do you know other parents, particularly those with sons in the younger ranks or will soon have sons in those ages, who can be recruited to help? Check with the den leaders to see whose parents have shown interest in their son's scouting. The problem is parents who won't get involved. Your husband hit on the answer, don't be a part of the problem, help with a solution.

Packsaddle, only one flaw?

I went to the absurd because Bob's point about if something's legal than it must be just is absurd. NJScouter had a much better and real example. Plessey vs. Ferguson (Separate but equal) brings that concept much closer to our own time. Women were denied the right to vote until the World War I era, legal, but hardly just. The poll tax was legal in many states until the early 60's but one would be hard pressed to call it just.

Bob,

To use your speeding example aqnd dovetail it with Hunt's statement "Surely even you, Bob, can imagine a BSA official acting unethically and revoking someone's membership unfairly or based on improper motives.". You are driving through a noted speed trap town at/under the speed limit and the officer didn't like where your license plate is from and gives you a speeding ticket. You know you are correct and politely say so to him. Now he adds resisting arrest. He has the legal right to do so. He has now acted unethically, but you are not likely to be in any position to argue. The judge isn't going to believe you. You're are saying that that's just?