mdsummer45

This is Justin speaking:

I wanted to personally thank EVERYONE on this forum for all the support and help throughout this entire process. I have learned a lot and I am proud to have earned the rank of Eagle Scout. It was a long road but it was completely worth it.

I appreciate all of your comments and thank you to everyone who congratulated me. It means a lot to me.

Take care,

Justin

For those of you who Private messaged me stating that they hoped my younger son and myself have not seen animosity from the unit leaders I think the posting by OwINE488 gives you your answer. Both Justin and I continue to be demonized. MY Eagle award..how nice. That statement demonstrates his lack of knowledge as to what actually occurred over the past year.

I guess OwINE488 believes that Nationals rules and regulations and policies and procedures are just "technicalities". Rather than trying to learn and grow and make improvements to the unit,it appears that OwINE488 believes this unit should just continue on it current path and put blame on anyone who dare challenge their manipulation of Nationals rules.

"National struggled for month"..struggled?? In my conversations with National the word struggled was never used. I was told that the committee need additional information from the council and that does take additional time for the correspondence to go back and forth. Also my sons appeal was not the only appeal that National was reviewing.

OwINE488..lets talk about this privately...you know who I am and while I think I know who you are I am not positive. The next time you see me reveal yourself to me and lets talk. Contrary to what you think I only have positive thoughts and wishes for this troop.

After reading all of the documents and talking with Justin either in person or by phone, Justin was encouraged to appeal to National by other scouters in our district, in neighboring districts and in other councils outside of our state. So I guess in OwINE488 eyes they too manipulated the situation and therefore this is their Eagle Award ,too. Congratulations to all of you!

This all really makes me sad.

eagle732

PM me with a good email address for you. I think we may have emailed this summer however I can not find your email address. Thanks

EAGLE732...sent you a PM

Just called National. Sons appeal is still at National.

It appears that National meets quarterly to review appeals. My sons appeal is in the process of being reviewed (fourth quarter appeal). This is what we have been told by a Council representative.

Still waiting to hear from National.

Eagle732--I sent you a PM. Let me know if you do not receive it

Nothing new to report. No final decision has been made. I promise to report back when this reaches its final conclusion and I really do not have a time line for that. I promise I will not leave you all hanging.

I did not have selective amnesia and I was listening to you...I was listening to you as people who were giving me their opinion from afar. I have cometo learn that every troop, district and council do things differently. I went by the words from my District person. In my postings I state BOR and not EBOR that is because those were the words that the district people used. I took their words at face value and did not reinterpret them to mean EBOR. The term EBOR was never said to me in my phone call from the DC and was never written in any emails from the DC to my son. One of our probems is that I am ignorant of how things wordk and the short hand speak of those with years of scouting experience. But ignorance is no excuse...right. Just like I was ignorant of the fact that he could change troop 6 mos before he aged out. I was ignorant.

It appears that when my son attempts to defend himself at the distrcit meeting(which we just found out from the council AC was my sons EBOR...I did not know that nor did my son), it is viewed like this...'Now you continue the argument, personalizing and demonizing those people who "deny you" the Eagle Award. By continuing this behavior, you only reinforce thier conclusion.' The person who chaired the District meeting was the District Chairman. And as I have mentioned before this SM hold 3 postions at the District level. The SM also contacted the DC before writing the letter to my son and told the DC his feelings about my son and asked for the DC input as to what the SM should do.(This is written in the SM presentation to the troop Committee) Is this possibly a conflict of interest?

Advise the SM about what he should do and then Chair the appeal at the District level? Just a question.

The council letter came from the council advancement chairman and not the council SE. I have a call into the Council Director of Field Service(DFS) but have not heard back from him. I called him last Thursday and left a messaage requesting him to return my call. Since you have mentioned the role the Council SE plays in this appeal, I guess a call to that gentleman is in order.

Correction:

My son attended Brownsea when he had just started 9th grade. It still was 4 years ago.

Fair question...I was present at the troop committee meeting and heard what was presented by the SM and my son. I was not present at the district meeting and he never had a meeting with the council. The only thing that I did not know about occurred when my son was probably in 8th grade and attended Brownsea. The SM stated that my son had a confrontation with another scout. My son said that he was in a group of other scouts and they were all saying stupid things to each other and when my son said something to one scout that scout picked up a stick and came after my son( my son does not even remember what was said) my son said he went running to another youth leader for protection. The SM did not witness at the actual incident (although present at Brownsea because he runs the thing) and therefore his account of the situation was based on what he was told and morphed it into more than it was. I question how bad the incident really was because neither my husband nor myself were ever contacted by the SM regarding the incident and my son continued to progress through the ranks with out issue. Remember this happened when my son was in 8th grade yet the SM held onto it and felt the need to bring it up 4+ yrs later. I can state for a fact (because I was present) portions of what was written in the TC letter and in the SM were not an accurate reflection what actually happened at the meeting. One of the big issues here is my sons attendance and participation at troop meeting and outings. This troop has an attendance policy and the troop uses attendance to evaluate scout spirit. It is posted on their website that "Each troop sets its own qualifications for an active scout" the document then list: Active = 75% of troop meeting , 50% of planned outdoor outings, must participate in a troop sponsored service project, while in POR must attend 75% of PLC meeting with an 100% response to SPL if not attending". My son was able to live up to those expectations until his junior yr in high school when he became extremely involved in school honor societies and service to the high school faculty and guidance office and community activities...ya know demonstrating the scout spirit in his everyday life. The only conversation my son ever had with the SM or with another other adult leader occurred when my sons attendance at meetings and outings declined during his junior year in high school. The only topic discuss was my sons attendance at meetings and outing.The next communication occurred when my son received the SM letter. And in this troop attendance=scout spirit.

Beavah,

Generally speaking I don't think to highly of people jumping to conclusions and making assumptions without knowing all the facts. What makes you think that ljnrus did not have my permission? Apologies anyone?

"So we're back to da issue that Mdsummer and all those to whom she has sent copies have only an incomplete set of facts from one aggrieved party in da dispute. No fair person would ever settle a case by listening to da hearsay testimony and evidence of only one side."

What incomplete set of facts...what hearsay testimony and evidence... should I interpret that to mean you think that I have withheld information? Think what you want but it's not true.

"No fair person would ever settle a case by listening to da hearsay testimony and evidence of only one side."

yet isn't that what the council did when they made their decision and only had the information from the district? They may not have settled it but they made a decision based on evidence presented by only one party and made no attempt to get the other sides information. And you don't need to cite me the rules and regs I already know how you interpret them.

"Mdsummer did share with me via PM the name of her council. I can say that it is not a council which has a reputation for being political or being an "old boys network" or any of that. Quite the opposite, it is a council which is very highly regarded in many scouting circles, both volunteer and professional. It is safe to say that da district and council folks are well trained and independent."

And I am sure you will agree that that is only your opinion and not necessarily a fact.

Beavah I do enjoy you :^)(This message has been edited by mdsummer45)(This message has been edited by mdsummer45)

Thank you ljnrus. I can certainly understand how many felt that there was "something missing". If I were not living it I might have the same feeling. I wish I could send everyone a copy of all of the letters. They are really quite unbelievable. I have personally had my character assassinated in two of these letters and my words have been misquoted and twisted, yet they are presented as fact in two official letters. I do not feel that it is appropriate to engage in a war of words with these men at this time. Their comments and twisted interpretation of what I actually said will be addressed at a later date. I am only concerned that if they have twisted my words, it is certain possible that they have also twisted my son's words.

Beavah:

Just to clarify a point you have made.

"It's really hard for me to imagine that there's any new information at this point, eh? Mdsummer45 and her son have written several letters as part of the appeal thus far. I think they should feel free and be welcome to include any additional statement they want, but I expect they've already made the best case they can."

I have not written any letters and the only time my son has written anything was when he made his presentation to the Troop committee. His appeals letters were just that, asking for an appeal to the next level, not presenting his "case". When asked what information the council used to make their decision, the CAC said that it was the letter from the DAC to my son. When asked what information they had from my son, the CAC said we only had the letter he wrote asking for an appeal. That letter did not present any information as to how my son felt he demonstrated scout spirit, it only stated that he was appealing the decision of the district. Had he know that he would not be "interviewed" at the council level( which , now I'm going to disagree with ya here..my read of page 33 of the ACP&P, I feel states that at both the district level AND the council level ALL parties MUST be interviewed or written statements obtained. The Council level did not do that.) he certainly would have presented his "side"(for lack of a better word). In fact, prior to the district level meeting , it was specifically asked of the person chairing the meeting if my son should write something to present to the district people. This is what he was told No, this is not a trial, you do not have to prepare anything. We are just going to have a conversation. So...your assumption is not quite right...no letters from me at all and only the Troop committee presentation information from my son(which according to the CAC they did not see, use , have???)

Son just received a letter from the Council Committee Chairman. It said that they have reviewed the information that was sent to them by the troop and the district and have decided to uphold the decision made by the troop and the district not to recommend him for Eagle. Okay...I'm confused, no one from the Council ever spoke to my son. Is it usual for the Council to just read the information presented by one side and make a decision. They said that they will be sending off the total package of recommendations to National for their decision. Only one side(the troop and district) is heard at the Council level and then also at the National level.

Nope...still waiting to hear from the council for a date for the appeal. After the district level appeal it took two wks to receive the official letter from the district people and it has been two week since the appeal letter has been sent to the council people. Have called twice to be sure that they had received the letter and was told by the Council Advancement professional that the CAC had the letter and was "reviewing it". Going to have son call again today when he gets home from work for another status report.

Hi Ed

Let me answer that question...what I posted was from the letter my son received Tuesday from the District people. He has not had the meeting with the Council people as he needed to wait for the letter from the District. The Council people know he will be appealing and he has the name of the Council individual he needs to contact with a letter. Thats where he is at this point. Hope this helps.

Here it is to the best of my understanding:

They do not believe that he performed to the standard for the Eagle requirement of Scout Spirit. (my note: is there a different standard for scout spirit for each rank?)

They revisited the SM original letter and examined the paragraphs were he asks that my son show improvement...attendance at meetings, attendance at outings, to be a resource to the current leadership as well as an example to all the Scouts ( my note: he did not met the troops percentage for attendance at meeting or outings therefore they felt he did not set an example to all the Scouts, they acknowledge that he did do a few things to comply with the request, his POR was that of Instructor..this was an additional POR that he asked for , the POR for the eagle requirement had already been signed off as well as the requirement being active in you troop for a period of at least 6 mos after receiving Life. From the time he received the SM letter 11-08 until the end of 3-09 when he asked for a SM conference my son was never told that his performance as an Instructor was unacceptable it was not until the SM refused to give him a SM conference and the Troop committee convened that anything related to his performance as instructor was ever mention.)

They did not fell that my son did enough to contact the SM about the content of his letter. They felt that sending and email which the SM states he never received and attempting to talk to the SM twice(the SM was too busy both times) was not enough. My son explained that based on his past experience with teachers( my note: which is the only experience he has to draw upon)that after 3 attempts to talk to a teacher the teacher is aware that my son wants to talk to them and the teacher has approached my son. He felt that after 3 attempts the SM was aware that my son wanted to talk to him.) The committee felt that he should have approached other adults and that they expect more from an Eagle Scout.

They brought up the camping incident again and state that there was a lot of controversy over what happened and that my son does not take any personal responsibility over what happened. (my note: This is where my son told me that he felt they were pushing him into a corner to say he did something that he didn't do) They say that one of the adult leaders from that trip has dropped out of scouting due to his experiences on this trip(my note: No, this man was in uniform at the leaders table at the last troop meeting I attended. This was the gentleman that decided it would be appropriate on the way back home from the outing to crank up the volume on his car radio so loud that it was hurting the boys ears and when they asked him to please turn the volume down he pretended not to hear them. The other adult leader who was on this trip felt that cursing at the boys is an appropriate scouting behavior. He is the one who is accusing my son of staging a 'mutiny' when this adult dragged them oput of the tent in the middle of the night and continually yelled at them and told my son what a horrible leader my son was. Finally, my son politely got up and said to the adult...its cold, its late, I'm tired , I'm going back to the tent. He left. The other scouts waited and then asked if they could go. The adult said I don't give a s--t what you do. This is this adults idea of my son leading a "mutiny". When questioned by the SM at the meeting the SM had with the scout and their parents every scout stated that my son was polite and respectful when he made his remarks to this adult)

They again went into his attendance records and stated that he did not meet the troop guidelines of 50% Camping and 75% troop meeting attendance. His camping attendance from 1/08-08/08 was 23% and from 09/08-04/09 it was 40%. For troop meetings it was 42% since 08/07 and 60% from 09/08-04/09. (my note: these are the troop records and I have kept track of his attendance since 09/08 and my records differ from the troop...but this numbers game is really a moot point isn't it?)

In regard to some specific of Scout Spirit in everyday life They said that usually they see scouts performing well in the troop while under the eye of scout leaders and the challenge is outside of the troop. They commented that in my sons case the shortfall is in his unwillingness to invest with the Troop while he has performed well at school( my note: The LOR's were from a variety of people and not just school people). They feel that scout spirit begins in the troop and it is exhibited in the troop, school and community. And that while his performance in school is most praiseworthy(my note: they never mention his outstanding performance in the community)his performance in scouting is a more fundamental factor for the purpose of defining scout spirit. (my note: by whose definition..the troops/districts or nationals definition?)

They also felt the need to include comments regarding me in this letter. The committee chair and committee offered to talk with me after the meeting. The content of this letter did not accurately reflect what I had said at that meeting. I will not go into all of that because it has absolutely no bearing on my sons appeal. I only mention it here because I wonder what their purpose or intention is to include me in their letter.

The End

Okay guys have at it...dissect it , chew it up, spit it out, have fun.

It appears that even if you are polite and respectful in articulating a different point of view and if you are unwilling to be cornered into accepting responsibility for something you did not do, and express any type confusion, you are considered to be uncooperative, argumentative and not an Eagle Scout. I guess only the adult leaders are free to expresses their feelings or thoughts and that the Eagle candidate must not have a mind of their own, they should just blindly agree to what ever is said to them , lest they be seen as uncooperative and argumentative. I find it very interesting that the only group who find my son argumentative and uncooperative are Scouters. Very strange indeed.

Just to update you in the area of demonstrates scout spirit in your everyday life...at the recent high school awards ceremony my son received 2 community based scholarships which in my opinion(but of course I am him mother)continue to support his demonstrating scout spirit in his everyday life(of the 5 senior boys in his troop who are working towards their eagle, my son was the only one to receive any awards from the community). The 1st award ..based on scholastic achievement and community involvement. The 2nd...awarded to a senior displaying involvement throughout the community, along with good scholastic achievement. Yet he is argumentative and uncooperative??? Strange how know one else views him in that light.

son just received an email response to the message he left earlier this evening on the District persons cell phone. Due to other scouting activities District person has not had the time to draft a letter and run it by the other members of the committee for their input. He hopes to have a letter to my son sometime next week. He gave my son the name of the person to contact at the Council level. Will do that tomorrow. So that's the latest info.

Will let you all know what is in the District letter when my son receives it. Will be back then. Focusing on graduation activities right now. See ya all later.

Thanks click23..you are absolutely on point.(This message has been edited by mdsummer45)

Sorry all, not my intention to leave you all hanging. It's off to the Council level we go. Waiting (meeting was last Tuesday and this is a long holiday weekend so figured the letter may be slow in coming) to get in writing from the District people their rationale for not being able to recommend my son for Eagle. Left that meeting confused. Still saying he has not met the requirement of demonstrated living Scout spirit in his everyday life. Although they did tell my son and I that his LORs were wonderful/glowing BUT his attendance at meetings and outings dropped off during his junior yr in high school so they do not feel that he has met this requirement. Don't want to say much more until we get the letter and see exactly what they say. Have to tell you my son is confused and so am I.